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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    Fury warriors are fun. You're welcome.
    Then you can go play fury as the playstyle is already in game . Those who enjoyed enhancement before are inferior to you, by your lack of argument against it.

    I'm not trying to encroach on your playstyles here, you are trying to encroach on EVERYONES you disagree with. That's why you are greedy (and that's why it's one of many emerging mistakes in legion so far)
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  2. #202
    Another day on MMOC, where posters will argue that anti-flyers want to force their preference on the rest of the subscribers, and in the same breath rejoice the removal of optional / infrequently used abilities.

  3. #203
    Herald of the Titans TheWorkingTitle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sykoex View Post
    Exaclty, in Vanilla mages just used 3 buttons, Arcane Intellect, Mage Armor, and Frostbolt.
    Yeah if you were completely incompetent.


    OT: I'm reserving my opinion for when I can try it out myself.

    The prune from MoP to WoD was my limit (as far as destroying a class goes) and so if it is indeed worse than WoD, I'm gone.

    (11 year player)

  4. #204
    Deleted
    Why do people want more abilities to add to their rotation? Blizzard have done this in the past and people just macro them down to a single button using /castsequence.

    Secondly, how does adding more abilities add any more skill to the game? Quite often Blizzard end up adding abilities which take skill out of the game instead.

    These days most classes have a whole load of panic buttons and cooldowns which prevent them from dying to certain boss mechanics; the end result is that every raid tier has dozens of boss mechanics which just end up being cheesed by the huge number of immunities or personal defensive cooldowns, rather than actually having players deal with those mechanics directly.

    Then we have the speed boosts and various other mobility buttons - players don't need to need to care so much about where they're positioned on certain bossfights; when there's some ability which lets everybody temporarily run 60% faster, or instant teleport/blink out of harms way, then those "move out the fire" mechanics start to look really boring.

    Aside from the fact that having loads of abilities inevitably means that classes end up feeling too similar to each other (Why does every class need a speed boost? Why does every class need a personal damage reduction cooldown?), the game is more interesting when players have more limitations and restrictions, and when classes have more distinct, unique capabilties.

    When your character is limited in the number of ways they can engage with a boss mechanic, they need to learn to cope with whatever limited toolset they've got. On the other hand, if all characters have a 'correct' button for every conceivable situation, then the correct answer to every boss mechanic is simply a matter of pressing that button.

    WoW already has a lot of buttons for each class/spec - Blizzard just don't do enough with the toolkits which are already available. What would make the game more interesting would be to have more complex interactions between different abilities and less predictability.

    For example, if a player has an ability whose behaviour might change at different times during an encounter (e.g. % chance to behave differently), then that suddenly creates a lot more depth and variation in gameplay than simply having two separate abilities on different buttons where both are always available, because the latter would imply the player always being able to perform a simplistic-yet-mathematically-perfect "rotation", whereas the former would imply a player needing to actually think for themselves and change their gameplay on-the-fly.
    Last edited by mmoc2462c4a12d; 2015-12-03 at 06:34 PM.

  5. #205
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by lolcats121 View Post
    id rather have 5 interesting buttons to push than 50 boring buttons to push. quanity =/= quality.
    You will not have 5 interesting buttons. You wil have 4-5 generic builders and spenders then you will have utility.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by vulena View Post
    Fine - compare it to GW2, which has 5 buttons per weapon. Compare it to Wildstar, which as a ton of abilities, but only up to 10 (maybe less? I can't remember, definitely not more than 10) are usable on the bars at the same time.

    Plenty of MMOs work perfectly well with fewer buttons.
    They have comppletly different combat. Their combat is is much more dynamic. HF at 10-15 minutes boss fights spaming thjose 5 generic builders and spenders.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Bench333 View Post
    When your character is limited in the number of ways they can engage with a boss mechanic, they need to learn to cope with whatever limited toolset they've got. On the other hand, if all characters have a 'correct' button for every conceivable situation, then the correct answer to every boss mechanic is simply a matter of pressing that button.
    This exactly. Attaching two boards together with a hammer and a nail is not compelling at all. Attaching them with a screw and a pocket knife is maybe more compelling. It can be done, but it requires a bit of thought and some care.

    The older game was about your limited toolbox against the mechanics. You had to find a way to win. The times when you had the PERFECT tool to counter an encounter mechanic was rare. Usually you had to *gasp* actually do it without a crutch.

    Now the toolbox is a little too big, a little too powerful, and that doesn't necessarily make the game too easy, because bosses are tuned to compensate, but it sure makes the game scripted. Solving problems isn't fun when the answer is obvious.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzeeyooo View Post
    I will never for the life of me understand why so many people seem to think that picking an aoe talent for an aoe fight, then picking a single target talent for a single target fight, then picking a movement talent for a movement heavy fight constitutes "depth" and "choice"
    Do I need this aoe talent on this fight with heavy aoe that also has a fairly tight ST check or am I better off letting X other class who loses less ST pick up his aoe talent while I take my ST talent to maybe better tailor the raid to this part we're struggling on in this fight?

    Do I need this movement talent that makes me teleport on a cooldown for this heavy movement fight or is the constant small movespeed buff better or shit do I really need this defensive CD that is on the same row because there's that part of the fight where I could solo soak it with this defensive at the cost of movement but make it easier on the raid.

    etc, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzeeyooo View Post
    previously, we had every single one of those abilities available for use all the time, and used all of them when it was appropriate to do so - now, we are permanently locked out of using 66% of our available buttons, and pick whichever option results in slightly better performance - where is the choice in any of that lol
    When you had everything all the time there was no choice because you had everything... you simply used it all whenever appropriate.

    Now these choices are heavier because they aren't simple small number differences but the difference between whether or not you have an entire ability or not. and that is far more impactful when the baseline isn't chocked full of every ability you could ever need.
    "I've carefully played this game to an endless despair"

  8. #208
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delana View Post
    The rotations now are orders of magnitude more complex than they were in TBC and Wotlk. Moreover, they reward perfect play much more than they did before. This is actually a bad thing in a social raiding game. It makes the raid scene more and more exclusionary, pushes people from the game, and leads to guild death when you encounter a boss that is, numerically, entirely beyond your player skill.

    Raid bosses used to be about communication and coordination. The DPS/HPS numbers were secondary. Now, it's much the opposite.

    I personally saw players who I raided with for years, who showed up every night, and legitimately loved the game just not have "it" to raid at a high level in MOP. It was a really rough position to be in as a GM to have to sit them...for what? What is the purpose of punishing dedicated players because they aren't top 1%? I'm not talking about wanting to be a world ranked guild...I'm saying that sitting good, dedicated, smart, responsible players was necessary to progress at a consistent pace (clear end boss before next tier sort of pace). The very same players that Killed Yogg 1, sarth 3d, Heroic Nefarian, etc. as core raiders.

    The solution is that the delta between good dps and great dps needs to be about 10-15% or so. The best players and guilds still win the "race", but the game becomes way less about the perfect rotation and more about coordination, strategy, and teamwork, as it was in the past, and should be again. (For reference right now it seems to be ~35% or more glancing through warcraftlogs between the 50th and 95th percentile in mythic.) That is, to say, that a raid of 95th percentile players can lose 3 or 4 guys (6 or 7 with rez's) over the course of a mythic encounter and still win...




    As a raid leader (prot warrior) in TBC, a good hunter was a pillar of the raid group. Getting through trash efficiently was a huge part of the game...nit the snoozefest it is now. Our hunter marked the pull, MD'd, double trapped, etc. As a tank you had to work with your hunter to make sure the (trash) pull went properly. Any mistake on the pull was often a wipe.


    That sort of depth is what wow has lost... It needs it back.
    The encounter mechanics were also less complex though. Yes hunters could be called onto misdirected and trap but as complex as that might sound it's more planned and less hectic. The encounter paradigm feels like it's designed to just throw as much shit at you as often as it can. Movement was far less of a requirement then it is today for example.

    What your describing the players who couldn't keep up we lost some km ctaclysm specifically during molten core. People we used to bring just couldn't keep up. These were people who downed archimonde with us in hyjal. Finding themselves kinda left behind in the game.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  9. #209
    If what you're playing is inherently fun for what it is, why does it matter how many buttons you press?

    I've never understood that concept. I get some people like to press more buttons but like.. what exactly is it doing for your gameplay other than leaving a larger margin for mistakes and monotony? And how many of those skills do you actually incorporate into your rotations?
    Quote Originally Posted by Princess Kenny View Post
    Avocado is a tropical fruit , south seas expansion confirmed.

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bench333 View Post
    Why do people want more abilities to add to their rotation? Blizzard have done this in the past and people just macro them down to a single button using /castsequence.

    Secondly, how does adding more abilities add any more skill to the game? Quite often Blizzard end up adding abilities which take skill out of the game instead.

    These days most classes have a whole load of panic buttons and cooldowns which prevent them from dying to certain boss mechanics; the end result is that every raid tier has dozens of boss mechanics which just end up being cheesed by the huge number of immunities or personal defensive cooldowns, rather than actually having players deal with those mechanics directly.

    Then we have the speed boosts and various other mobility buttons - players don't need to need to care so much about where they're positioned on certain bossfights; when there's some ability which lets everybody temporarily run 60% faster, or instant teleport/blink out of harms way, then those "move out the fire" mechanics start to look really boring.

    Aside from the fact that having loads of abilities inevitably means that classes end up feeling too similar to each other (Why does every class need a speed boost? Why does every class need a personal damage reduction cooldown?), the game is more interesting when players have more limitations and restrictions, and when classes have more distinct, unique capabilties.

    When your character is limited in the number of ways they can engage with a boss mechanic, they need to learn to cope with whatever limited toolset they've got. On the other hand, if all characters have a 'correct' button for every conceivable situation, then the correct answer to every boss mechanic is simply a matter of pressing that button.

    WoW already has a lot of buttons for each class/spec - Blizzard just don't do enough with the toolkits which are already available. What would make the game more interesting would be to have more complex interactions between different abilities and less predictability.

    For example, if a player has an ability whose behaviour might change at different times during an encounter (e.g. % chance to behave differently), then that suddenly creates a lot more depth and variation in gameplay than simply having two separate abilities on different buttons where both are always available, because the latter would imply the player always being able to perform a simplistic-yet-mathematically-perfect "rotation", whereas the former would imply a player needing to actually think for themselves and change their gameplay on-the-fly.
    In principle I understand but game suffers from enough rng. I don't need the added stress of keeping my fingers crossed that some ability I want to use will go the way I want it to.

    The arms race between boss mechanics/addons/ and abilities needs to end or be reversed. Simple but less forgiving.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    Then you can go play fury as the playstyle is already in game . Those who enjoyed enhancement before are inferior to you, by your lack of argument against it.

    I'm not trying to encroach on your playstyles here, you are trying to encroach on EVERYONES you disagree with. That's why you are greedy (and that's why it's one of many emerging mistakes in legion so far)
    You have it totally wrong. If you can spec back up to a zillion buttons, your playstyle is preserved. The only thing having a base 15 combat abilities does is turn that class off to another player. But there are far more things that draw people to a class besides how many buttons they have. Theme, lore, aesthetic, etc. So with the new model it allows ANYONE to play ANY spec and set it up as they choose.

    Small# of buttons with passive talents or large # of buttons with active talents.

    So as you can see, by restricting Enhancement to have 15 buttons (as you want) it's you who are being the "greedy" person. You want Enhancement to stay just the way YOU want it instead of having it be flexible enough to fit everyone's playstyle.
    Last edited by ro9ue; 2015-12-03 at 07:19 PM.

  12. #212
    Small amounts of abilities are fine and cool when there is depth to them. Some things that can keep a player interested and entertained with small amounts of abilities are:

    Proactive abilities (remember when icebound fort required the dk to pop it BEFORE the stun, or where he would swap weapons to one with the anti-disarm BEFORE being disarmed) -WoW has managed to remove almost all proactive abilities. Warriors don't need to change stances for reflect or zerker rage, dks can pop icebound whenever, ect.

    Real Physics and Positioning requirements-In a lot of games abilities can be blocked or eaten by los or even another player or mob. For example, in GW2 if a player is targeting a mob or another player and an object or another player/mob runs between them even if the cast goes off it will hit the obstacle and won't magically fly through it. WoW does not have this sort of gameplay. Positioning requirements are being removed on abilities. Shred no longer requires the back of a mob, backstab won't require it in legion, while I understand some of these mechanics were frustrating at times it is just one less thing to keep the game interesting.

    Dot snapshotting-I shouldn't need to go too heavily into this. Everyone that played pre-WoD knows what I mean by snapshotting. Bliz added real-PPM to make dot snapshotting and cooldown management more fluid and easier to manage. They then only one expac later totally removed snapshotting altogether.

    Spell Combos-What I mean by this is when one ability merges with another, often times cross class, to setup a totally new effect. This is where a lot of the depth to GW2 actually comes into play. In GW2 abilities can totally change depending on certain factors. Abilities will change or add new effects with combo fields, number of times an ability has been chained, if you are stealthed, distance to target, your buffs, the player or enemies percentage health (wow does have this somewhat with things like resto sham mastery and execute abilities), and number of targets hit (once again some WoW abilities do have this).

    Skillshots-Shouldn't have to go too heavily into this one. Unfortunately WoW doesn't have much in this regard. There were some interesting abilities in this tier over the years, such as healing spheres for monks. Ability pruning and changes have done away with what we did have.

    Area/Map Awareness-This is one of the few things WoW still has going for it in terms of skill. Are you paying attention to what is going on around you. With the gutting of complicated rotations this typically means bosses need more crap to throw at you to keep the fight interesting. Bliz has artificially made fights harder by making the fights longer, I'm in a bit of agreement with ro9ue on this one that that isn't a good way to do things.

    RNG-Everything from random ability and item procs to bosses having ability "choose" what ability to use at a given time. Bliz has reduced a lot of this with real-PPM and removal of snapshotting. Ability and item procs at random times I'm not an advocate for. It has plagued both PvE where a good proc at the right moment can mean a difference of 20% more dps or tank death. And PvP where we saw random gibs from things like ele sham surge procs at the end of mop or warrior getting tfb procs early on. I'd even go for less rng from players where crit works on a less random scale.

    With all this said, there isn't much left in wow to really engage the player. As others have said rotations have become resource building and dumping. Random procs and snapshotting have been removed for the most part. Abilities aren't very proactive anymore. There aren't any skillshots to speak of. And normal and even heroic mode fights are more about ilvl than they are awareness to surroundings and timers. When I read about abilities in Legion I have to wonder where they are actually going with all this. I get the feeling Celestalon and his team are designing classes by the seat of their pants and may not even play the game anymore.

    tl;dr Abilities and rotations aren't engaging and the Bliz class design team and their lead Celestalon no longer have any plan or direction.

    Edit:added tl;dr
    Last edited by Gardrenn; 2015-12-03 at 07:25 PM.

  13. #213
    Deleted
    I still don't see a confirmation.
    Is that picture supposed to confirm anything?
    It only confirms that you managed to put nothing but your combat abilities on the bar, GJ.

  14. #214
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyConqueror View Post
    As a ret paladin, the only spells i really use when fighting (not including utility abilities like Lay on Hands) Are Judgement, Exorcism, Crusader Strike, Final Verdict and Avenging Wrath. LOL. Moba style gameplay is in the game already, but if you look at the talent calculator, we get more active abilities as ever before.
    Talents are alredy inculded in those 15 or w/e abillities what we will get.

  15. #215
    Deleted
    As I have said countless times before, the difficulty in the game should not come from constantly playing piano on your keyboard. 15 abilities is plenty. Currently on my WW monk I could really do without some of the things like Tigereye Brew and the stuns and damage reductions.

  16. #216
    So many fucking people who like blatantly removing abilities. What the fuck, people? Are you all clickers? Is it that horrible to have a little depth to your class beyond "primary DPS rotation"?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Chitika View Post
    I still don't see a confirmation.
    Is that picture supposed to confirm anything?
    It only confirms that you managed to put nothing but your combat abilities on the bar, GJ.
    It's obviously supposed to show how his original (live) bar changed when he went into the alpha.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinndor View Post
    You will not have 5 interesting buttons. You wil have 4-5 generic builders and spenders then you will have utility.
    How's that different from the 50 abilities we had before? We still had rotations of 4-5 builders and spenders with a whole ton of utility inbetween. The choice of builders and spenders may have been higher but many could be considered utility, like Maim and Pounce for Feral Druids.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    "Real" Demon Hunters don't work as a class in modern WoW
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Please point out to me the player Demon Hunter who has Meta.

  18. #218
    Deleted
    Balance druids will still have 25-30 abilities depending on talent choices. Less then before, but mostly rarely or never used feral and guardian abilities were cut. Some prunes feel bad though. No longer have instant root, slow, sprint. I don't know how the hell will we deal with melee with our mobility and half of the cc removed, even cyclone comes from the last tier of pvp talents in current alpha state.

    Less might be more, but not if you end up as a mage who only have a blink, sheep and damage abilities for their rotaion. Boring shit. MMO-s need way more buttons than mobas.

  19. #219
    I'm happy about it. Less buttons means more time to work on the only buttons we have which means they can add flavor to them as they please, and continue to tweak us around those abilities. I'd much rather have less abilities than more, why the hell do I need 50 keybinds for 1 spec? The hell? I mean as long as the rotation is interesting I couldn't care less whether we had more or less, but only if it's interesting. If it's how arms is now (mind numbingly boring and unplayable) then..obviously there's a problem. Really depends on how it plays out. Interesting rotation: Sure, less buttons is fine. Boring rotation: Needs more buttons to make it interesting.

    I don't really know what to expect with this. The MoP to WoD prune was awful, but only because they didn't change any of our original abilities and just removed a bunch randomly, some that were cool and some that weren't necessary. If they decide they want to prune again, than that's fine as long as our original abilities that have been generally the same since BC change then it's fine.
    Last edited by Taeldorian; 2015-12-03 at 07:47 PM. Reason: Spelling

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Another day on MMOC, where posters will argue that anti-flyers want to force their preference on the rest of the subscribers, and in the same breath rejoice the removal of optional / infrequently used abilities.
    Your forgot to include the part where we blame casuals for everything because blizzard is catering to casuals when casuals got jack squat for new content the entire expansion, like new dungeons and scenarios.

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