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  1. #1
    Banned A dot Ham's Avatar
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    If anyone needs ability pruning... its Shaman

    I was a huge fan of enhancement in Vanilla, continued to play through BC (though not viable), and played quite heavily in WotLK.

    The changes in cataclysm (hate you Ghostcrawler... can't tell you that enough) really ruined enhancement for me, and it has remained relatively unchanged since then.

    (1) I feel like the specs lost their theme. Blizzard continues to claim that each spec has its own relative "comfort element" elemental-fire, enhancement-wind, resto-water, but anyone who plays knows this isn't true. You have a huge mix of elemental abilities sometimes even more than your "core" theme. The argument could be made that the shaman is a master of all elements and thus should use them all... and I could see that, I prefer it the other way but to each his own. However, I feel that some enhancement abilities would fit better thematically with elemental... and vice versa.

    (2) Lightning bolt, flame shock, searing totem, lightning shield... its all the same shit, with a different spin. I would like to see more unique spells specific to a given spec. This could tie into making the specs more unique thematically.

    (3) Hybrid, yet heals suck ass... there are PURE dps classes/specs that do a better job at surviving/self-healing than shaman do with a spec and spell specifically designed for the purpose of healing.

    (4) clutter, 3 shocks, tons of totems, spells upon spells, its Xzibit designed the shaman class (Pimp My Ride... look it up). Now I know that on the whole ability pruning is not a popular design choice among players. But I personally don't like to play with more than 20 (active) ability slots. Many other classes have several abilities wrapped in a nice neat package. To achieve the same goal a shaman may need to press several different buttons to get the same result.

    Example:
    Shaman: flameshock (applies dot), lava lash(spreads dot), fire nova(aoe damage), frosthock(for the slow effect)
    Deathknight: Howling blast does all of this

    Personally I think DKs play more like enhancement of WotLK... many of you are undoubtedly going to respond with, then play a DK. But again going back to theme I prefer my shaman.

    I know that people's concerns are utility and performance, and I would agree the last thing the game needs is more homogenization. Personally though I look at my shaman and I think what a mess... little or no direction design wise, just a mess... make the mess work... don't worry about cleaning it up.

    Lastly, and I think this speaks volumes to where the class is. Talent choices and core abilities/rotation.

    Talent choices really change the core rotation of the class/spec. On top of that talent choices have a greater effect on performance when compared to other classes. Meaning there is a definite best choice, and a definite wrong choice.

  2. #2
    I completely disagree with just about everything you're saying... but it doesnt matter anyway since this topic is 2 months too late. In Legion Enhancement is probably getting the most significant overhaul of anyone. Most of the kit is being thrown away and replaced with abilities and talents that are specific to Enhancement.

  3. #3
    I also disagree with almost everything you wrote. Shamans are one of the last classes that haven't been gutted into worthlessnes. Sure they have problems but atleast they are still fun to play. Legion they are getting taken to the axe block like all the rest.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by nazrakin View Post
    I completely disagree with just about everything you're saying... but it doesnt matter anyway since this topic is 2 months too late. In Legion Enhancement is probably getting the most significant overhaul of anyone. Most of the kit is being thrown away and replaced with abilities and talents that are specific to Enhancement.
    It will still be overbloated.

  5. #5
    I'm with you that Shaman have some significant ability bar bloat, but that's about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbo Baggins View Post
    (1) I feel like the specs lost their theme. Blizzard continues to claim that each spec has its own relative "comfort element" elemental-fire, enhancement-wind, resto-water,
    When has this ever been true, and where does Blizzard continue to claim this? Can you find a blue post?

    Resto has always thematically been "water," but as long as I can remember, Elemental and Enhancement have always been mixed element fighters, one ranged and one melee.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Schmilblick View Post
    It will still be overbloated.
    I dont see that at all. For Enh all the baseline totems are gone. The ST rotation is going from 7 to 4 abilities. The AE rotation from 5 to 2 (technically 3 but 2 of them are exclusive). We're going from 3 to 1 baseline CD. Everything has a well defined use case and there is barely any of the redundancy we have now. So where is the "overbloat" exactly?

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbo Baggins View Post
    Xzibit designed the shaman class
    Yo dawg - I heard you like Whack-a-Mole ...

    I do think that the Shaman is too cluttery and that the playstyles don't really have a unique twist or feel to them. I have no idea what Blizzard is doing with them in Legion - I avoid all expansion info - but I do have hopes.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by nazrakin View Post
    I dont see that at all. For Enh all the baseline totems are gone. The ST rotation is going from 7 to 4 abilities. The AE rotation from 5 to 2 (technically 3 but 2 of them are exclusive). We're going from 3 to 1 baseline CD. Everything has a well defined use case and there is barely any of the redundancy we have now. So where is the "overbloat" exactly?
    Surely it was more than that?
    Stormstrike, Lava Lash, Rockbiter, Flametongue, (st)
    Crash Lightning (aoe)
    Feral Spirits, Doom Winds (cds)

    Enh baseline + 1 Artifact Trait.

    Add talents though... (Windsong, Feral Lunge, Lightning Shield, Sundering, Fury of Air, Ascendence/Earthen Spike) up to 6 additional abilities. That said, their performance will decide about wether or not they'll be wortwhile. Feral Lunge dealing damage atm feels whack for a gap closer, LS has been crap since vanilla dmg-wise so hard to imagine it being king of the tier, Sundering sounds unproductive as a pve knock-back, FoA sounds like a utility move as well (mobile aoe snare), Ascendence is a big unknown still...

    Overall, yes, we lost a couple of buttons. I must admit, I kinda thought we had more in legion still in terms of bloat, but really there's just tons of SS/LL modificators to the point where Stormstrike is bloated .

  9. #9
    I agree - partially.

    Too much pruning and the class theme itself would be hurt.

    I do agree that enhancement (and elemental) healing / survivability is way worse than some pure dps classes.

  10. #10
    The Lightbringer Rizendragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbo Baggins View Post
    The changes in cataclysm (hate you Ghostcrawler... can't tell you that enough)
    You lost just about all the credibility of your post with this line...

    Quote Originally Posted by nazrakin View Post
    I completely disagree with just about everything you're saying... but it doesnt matter anyway since this topic is 2 months too late. In Legion Enhancement is probably getting the most significant overhaul of anyone. Most of the kit is being thrown away and replaced with abilities and talents that are specific to Enhancement.
    And done. The entire class is getting overhauled...

  11. #11
    Personally, I feel that the only class that could use some pruning is monk. Enhancement shaman has quite a lot of spells, but most of them are very situational.

  12. #12
    Being a douche and a crybaby usually gets you far when trying to have a discussion. Good job, OP.

  13. #13
    I don't see why people want to pigeon hole shaman specs into a certain element. I'd like to think that we can use all of them, just differently from the other specs. And I think legion is doing this for us.
    I think one of our problems, previously, has been sharing the same skills across specs. This makes each spec feel less unique, affecting the class fantasy.
    I don't mind that we may focus more on one element more than others, it makes sense. An enhancement shaman is going to have less use for water than fire or wind, but I think we should still have access to all of them through skills as I think it will make us feel stronger and more in control of all the elements as well as having more flair and diversity with spell visuals.

  14. #14
    Deleted
    what it they made elements like stances or auras for the shaman?

    i.e.
    "flame stance" adds fire damage to your attacks and possibly adds flame shock on hit and maybe increases X stat by X% ?
    "Earth Stance" reduces damage you take by X% and reduces damage by X% but being attacked has a chance to root enemy in place for X seconds.
    "Wind Stance" increase Attack and movement speed speed by X% cannot be slowed by X% move speed while active, slows enemy cast time within 5 yards. slows enemy move spee by X% within 5 yards of saman
    naturally they could be short term cool downs like paladin seals used to be way back when. or stances like warriors etc.

    just a little idea I thought of now, its probably been said before, but it would give options to shaman defensive and offensive could also add lightening stance etc. d give it the same effect as LS now.

    im not sure, just wanted to get that out of my head. again its just an idea, don't go mental with the flames lol

    Wiki out

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley1 View Post
    Surely it was more than that?
    Stormstrike, Lava Lash, Rockbiter, Flametongue, (st)
    Crash Lightning (aoe)
    Feral Spirits, Doom Winds (cds)

    Enh baseline + 1 Artifact Trait.

    Add talents though... (Windsong, Feral Lunge, Lightning Shield, Sundering, Fury of Air, Ascendence/Earthen Spike) up to 6 additional abilities. That said, their performance will decide about wether or not they'll be wortwhile. Feral Lunge dealing damage atm feels whack for a gap closer, LS has been crap since vanilla dmg-wise so hard to imagine it being king of the tier, Sundering sounds unproductive as a pve knock-back, FoA sounds like a utility move as well (mobile aoe snare), Ascendence is a big unknown still...

    Overall, yes, we lost a couple of buttons. I must admit, I kinda thought we had more in legion still in terms of bloat, but really there's just tons of SS/LL modificators to the point where Stormstrike is bloated .
    Yeah, I didnt mention the talents since they're optional and right now the tuning is a bit of a mess. I do believe Blizz has said that they cut back on baseline skills and put more actives in the tree so players could customize their rotations a bit more. The few actives we have left are packed with procs, which I'm not necessarily against, some of them sound pretty cool.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbo Baggins View Post
    (3) Hybrid, yet heals suck ass... there are PURE dps classes/specs that do a better job at surviving/self-healing than shaman do with a spec and spell specifically designed for the purpose of healing.
    This is the part that made me understand you might not have a clue about what you are talking about. Enh healing was stupid when I played couple of months back and I bet it still is. And with stupid I mean fuckin' retarded. This would be in PvP and who gives a flying fuck about off-healing in raids.

    Ele healing though is a matter I could see a buff in, but even that is a thin-line to walk as it get's out of hand very easily. About ability clutter, they are addressing it Legion, which might be a mistake or a huge pro, can't say yet as I haven't been testing alpha.

  17. #17
    Banned A dot Ham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noitatohtori View Post
    This is the part that made me understand you might not have a clue about what you are talking about. Enh healing was stupid when I played couple of months back and I bet it still is. And with stupid I mean fuckin' retarded. This would be in PvP and who gives a flying fuck about off-healing in raids.

    Ele healing though is a matter I could see a buff in, but even that is a thin-line to walk as it get's out of hand very easily. About ability clutter, they are addressing it Legion, which might be a mistake or a huge pro, can't say yet as I haven't been testing alpha.
    I was more referring to elemental...

    I just recently switched to enhancement and I feel really weak (probably because all the pieces that don't switch with spec) but even still I am not sure what you are talking about as far as stupid healing goes? Could be i'm just bad, could be I don't know what I am doing.

    But hard casting heals is just as bad, and you have what heals from wolves... am I missing something else that makes their self healing somehow off the charts... cuz I die like a bitch. Like a baby back bitch.

  18. #18
    ^hate to say it but you're just kinda bad at enh shams atm. it's ok though, everyone who starts off in a new spec is horrible (unless you really know your shit). pretty sure i'm still bad.

    enh shams have ridiculously good healing atm. though not high ranking, and only making it to 1541 in 2s, my boomkin friend and i rely on my heals to save us in those clutch moments. maelstrom stacking at 5 and instant heals for about 30-40k, and a 1.2sec casting time for 30-40k is huge. mind you, this is excluding mulstrike, which can do an 8-9k heal pushing that heal up to 40-50k sometimes. to add to that, the more you attack the more maelstrom you build, thus more instant-heals. however to put it into perspective, balance druids have a 2.4 second cast time (double the time) and only heal for about 19-22k (half of what enh shams are doing). i could discuss other classes as well but my point is that enh healing is incredible atm and can really save in clutch situations.

    edit: forgot to mention wolves + healing totem which keep a steady healing stream to you ontop of the maelstrom. so ye, enh healing is very good : )

  19. #19
    Deleted
    Well in Legion so far Enhancement and Elemental have maybe 2 pages of active (not passive) spells to use in their spellbook. I know many of my usual keybinds were left empty when trying the specs out. So you'll get your wish. Shamans have undergone some serious pruning.

  20. #20
    Scarab Lord Triggered Fridgekin's Avatar
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    Seems like it got pruned a bit but still retains setup time. That burst though, holy shit. lol
    Last edited by Triggered Fridgekin; 2016-01-15 at 07:21 PM.
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