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  1. #421
    Post 3/4 here, this one will be looking at crit. So I am actually almost done the process of making my sim for secondary stat weights as they scale with average health. I thought it would take longer, but I had quite a bit of free time. The basic gist of it will involve you inputting your current secondary stats as well as average health threshold you are targeting for, and it will output the optimized amount for crit/haste/mastery as well as gains you potentially could get. I am still in the process of including versatility, but I may or may not get this done since... it will only play a very minor role. But, I want to try to include it nonetheless.

    Also the point of these posts is just to give an exact description of how I am basing some of these estimates and stat weights. I apologize if these posts seem longwinded and obtuse, but a few people may want to know exactly how the sim works and I figure it is better to just be open about it if they want to actually use it. Not to mention, it can always be improved I feel with more input.

    ----

    Anyhow, back to looking at crit and the passives that hurt it. These include:

    1) Empowered Droplets: Adds 6% crit to a heal that is routinely ~12-13% of our overall raid healing. This can be approximated as having an overall extra 0.75% baseline crit.

    2) Floodwaters: I am going to be conservative here, but others who spam CH harder on beta raids may disagree with me. But I am trying to put crit in its best possible scenario and so if you spam it harder than the estimate I am putting, the value of crit will actually be even less for you. Anyhow, estimated as adding 10% crit to a heal that is 15% (in a real duration encounter with good usage, but not insanity like it is in a 2 minute live encounter) of our overall output. This can be approximated as having an overall extra 1.5% baseline crit.

    3) TW: In a legion raid setting, I have not seen anyone use healing surge too often in any true duration raid encounter (especially with HW + TW). As a result, this never breaks ~1-2% of my overall output (in 5 mans, it is obviously almost ~20x higher, but my focus is on raids). YMMV, but this is what I am going to use to estimate it. Assuming 3/3 Tidal Chains and assuming every HS is affected by TW, this comes out to 52% additional crit for each HS. This can be approximated as having an overall extra 0.75% baseline crit if we assume HS comprises ~1.5% of overall output.

    So as a result, with all 3 'negative' passives for crit and the baseline 5% we have at 110, we actually, on average, have 8% baseline crit.

    ----

    Now for the positives of crit - It is time to figure out QA. This is probably the most complicated thing to estimate.

    First, I will only be assessing 3/3 QA. Finding and spending 3 additional relics for QA is not reasonable for mythic raids. It might be for normal / heroic, when you start off the expansion given that EoA is farmable for 825 relics, but if you continue to use 825 relics (or an 840 mythic version) into a mythic raid, then I seriously question what you are doing. The ilvl of even a normal mode 850 relic will trump keeping an 825 QA relic. Not to mention, we have other efficacious traits and just automatically picking up an additional 3/3 QA without considering those other traits makes little sense. Finally, remember that QA can only affect HW/HS/CH and nothing else.

    Here is what QA actually buffs and doesn’t buff:

    1) Using QA in conjunction with HS ALWAYS results in a net 0 gain of HPS . This is true regardless of the amount of haste you stack and it is simply because QA is not real haste, does not lower the GCD, and so having a 1.2 second HS does not mean anything when you cannot cast for an additional 0.3 seconds

    2) Using QA in conjunction with HW + TW ALMOST ALWAYS results in a net 0 gain of HPS . With 3/3 TC, we get 39% faster HW casts under TW. This puts our HW cast time at just a bit above 1.5 seconds. Once QA procs, you get the same problem as above in that you cannot cast faster than the GCD.

    3) Using QA alone (no TW) with HW DOES result in an HPS gain. . This should make sense. But remember that the only spells that can proc QA are Riptide, CH, HW, HS (and UL, but... just no). However, both riptide/CH already proc TW and so they cannot be used to proc QA alone. The only way to get a ‘solo’ QA proc is through HW spam or HS spam. To estimate these both, I have been using an average of casts and healing through various logs. In these logs, 1/4 of the total casts (in a long, typical fight) come from HW. The resultant QA proc can be used to benefit either a HW or CH which together make up ~30% combined output on a given fight. As for the HS contribution, it makes up 2% of my overall casts on a given fight. Same assumptions as above.

    4) Proc'ing QA with CH and using the subsequent QA on CH, DOES result in an HPS gain . This is the obviously a big draw towards QA. Remember, QA does not increase the HPS of HS and because you are using CH to proc QA (which spawns TW), it will never increase the HPS of HW (see 2). The assumptions I am making here are that you have High-Tide and Floodwaters. I am assuming CH is about 1/8 of my casts in a given fight (This is honestly excessive, but I am trying to put QA in the strongest light here). I am again assuming CH's output to be approximately 15%.

    In the above 3) and 4), I made the assumption that EVERY single QA proc was used effectively meaning none were used on HS and none were used on a HW that also was under the effects of TW. I also assumed you USED every single QA proc, but remember this is only a 5 second buff. The point of doing all of this was to make QA appear in its strongest form. This isn't realistic and is probably over exaggerating the value of QA for me personally, but I did it this way nonetheless.

    The end result of combining everything in 3+4 (and when you give QA a lot of assumptions and put it in it's basically strongest possible form) is that each point value of crit is actually about 20% stronger . In other words, crit is getting a 1.2x stronger weight in my sim.

    ----

    So putting it altogether: Previous to this post, the assumption of all those above calculations was that you had 5% baseline crit. However, as it turns out, because we have a lot of passives that give us crit, it is apparent that on average, we sit at about 8% baseline crit when taking into account Empowered Droplets, Floodwaters, TW (3/3 TC). But, QA makes crit about 20% more valuable. These are the estimates I have made in the sim.

    One last note about crit: Again, while resurgence considerations are true, the mana returns from stacking an exceedingly high amount of crit don't just suddenly give you a ton more longevity. Better spell selection and gearing for higher output can easily be argued to be superior to just stacking a boatload of crit to try and have ~10% additional mana regen in an intensive fight.

  2. #422
    Quote Originally Posted by Gardiff View Post
    One last note about crit: Again, while resurgence considerations are true, the mana returns from stacking an exceedingly high amount of crit don't just suddenly give you a ton more longevity. Better spell selection and gearing for higher output can easily be argued to be superior to just stacking a boatload of crit to try and have ~10% additional mana regen in an intensive fight.
    so what i am understanding here is Crit is better later then haste because of QA and we should use relicts to boost it to to 30% ? And maybe its on paar with Mastery not only because of the mana back Resurgance mechanic and because it boost the healing from 1,0 to 1,2 per point`?
    Last edited by Berthier; 2016-07-22 at 08:35 AM.

  3. #423
    Deleted
    Sorry if the question was asked before but what do you think about leveling as a Rsham in Legion? (And a little question off topic, but do we get artefact for the second specialisation or do we have to put every artefacts we get in the primary one?)

  4. #424
    Quote Originally Posted by Numydia View Post
    Sorry if the question was asked before but what do you think about leveling as a Rsham in Legion? (And a little question off topic, but do we get artefact for the second specialisation or do we have to put every artefacts we get in the primary one?)
    There are a couple quests that give power to your currently equipped artifact, but most of it comes from consumable items that you can use on any artifact. And most people are saying you can put up to 13 points into one without too much hinderance on another.

  5. #425
    Quote Originally Posted by Berthier View Post
    so what i am understanding here is Crit is better later then haste because of QA and we should use relicts to boost it to to 30% ? And maybe its on paar with Mastery not only because of the mana back Resurgance mechanic and because it boost the healing from 1,0 to 1,2 per point`?
    So to answer this is a little bit complex. First of all, I did not take resurgence into consideration, but I went into that as to why. Essentially, resurgence is a pretty crappy mana regen mechanic in Legion.

    Regardless of that, through QA alone, I valued crit at 1.2x its actual value. This is only with a 3/3 relic. The reason why I did not consider 6/3 (or 30% as you noted) is that it isn't feasible on beta right now to farm 3 880+ relics. And if you are really going to use 3 825-840 EoA QA relics (which are farmable), your ilvl of your weapon will be so incredibly far behind that the spellpower loss won't outweigh the extra output 3 relics of QA gives you. It isn't that 6/3 QA is bad - it just is that in my sim, I am saying it isn't realistic to actually have 3 880+ QA relics. Not to mention, if you are using 3 extra relics to beef up QA, you are potentially missing out on output from just other basic artifacts which are also really good like Buffeting Waves, or the riptide one. The point is that most people, once they get past the initial normal raids, are going to be using relics solely on the basis of iLVL (and not the trait they buff) because the spellpower boost from going up on a 15 ilvl relic is pretty massive. A 15 ilvl boost on beta currently for 1 relic, raises your overall output by about ~1.5%. One level of QA is only worth about ~1.3-1.4%. Thus, if you get even just a 15 ilvl relic (i.e. one difficulty mode higher), it is better to give up the QA trait, REGARDLESS of what the new relic's effect is (even if it is like ghost in the mists or something equally useless).

    Crit is still weaker than haste, and it isn't just a little bit. Haste like crit also gets an additional stat weight of 1.2 (in my estimate) because of its double-dip effects on HR, riptide (HoT), HST.

    Additionally, haste scales at 325/1%, while crit scales at 350/1%. There are no negatives to haste - none of our talents or artifact traits negatively impact haste (not TW, not Wavecrash, not QA) because they don't modify haste, they scale independently. On the other hand, we sit at 5% base crit, and have a lot of additive bonuses to crit which makes crit less valuable to begin.

    Thus, both of these things combined make crit much less valuable than haste and this is what the sim incorporates into it.

    But remember, there is almost no point where you want to stack 1 stat indefinetly. This is probably the most important thing to understand about secondary stats. Simply following a pattern of Mastery > crit > etc, makes little sense when you consider the fact that all secondary stats scale off of each other and so stacking 1 stat or just 2 stats usually won't result in the optimal approach.

    This is what the sim addresses.

    If this concept of secondary stats is confusing, try thinking of this. Let's say you had 35000 secondary stats to spend. Note this isn't a real amount of stats, but I am using it as an example.

    Let's assume you wanted to maximize your output on targets who sit on average at 20% health. Your instinct might kick in to say 'put all 35000 points into mastery' because you are healing targets that are at 20% health and so mastery 'must be the answer'. This is false however.

    If you stacked 35000 points into mastery, your overall output would be 3.88x output (using the sim). However, if instead you normalized the secondary stats and balanced them equally after taking into account all the stuff mentioned above (such as haste double-dipping, QA, etc), your overall output would actually be 4.39x. The sim spits out how to stack the secondary stats to reach this 4.39x number. This example is one where optimal stacking would result in a 13% stronger output. The gains are much more prominent if you assume an average health threshold that is much more reasonable in raids (i.e. 50%)

  6. #426
    The Unstoppable Force Puupi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gardiff View Post
    So to answer this is a little bit complex. First of all, I did not take resurgence into consideration, but I went into that as to why. Essentially, resurgence is a pretty crappy mana regen mechanic in Legion.
    It's still the only regen mechanic outside of base regen.
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  7. #427
    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    It's still the only regen mechanic outside of base regen.
    It is, but it is garbage.

    In a 6 minute fight, your base regen is about ~300% mana. This does not change and cannot be altered by the shaman class.

    A dreamless sleep Legion potion refunds ~22% mana.

    When you discount the bonus of TW on HS, 10% crit from Floodwaters, Refreshing Currents, and 5% baseline crit (since all 4 of these would be present whether or not you stacked crit), the gains are somewhere between pointless, and borderline useless. My shaman on beta sits at 20% bonus crit (before the 5% baseline, so 25% total). Between my LFR, normal mode, heroic mode, and mythic mode beta logs, my resurgence gains attributed to this 20% crit is about 250000-300000 mana in an 6-7 minute fight. Remember, you have to remove the gains from floodwaters, tidal currents, 5% baseline crit, and TW on HS since these 4 things would be present whether or not you stacked a massive amount of crit. This is about 25% mana.

    This is an exorbitant amount of crit to stack for a very mediocre gain in mana. Remember, a dreamless sleep potion gives you about 22% mana. And your baseline regen gives you about 300% mana in this same timeframe.

    Not to mention, if you don't OoM, you didn't need the mana in the first place.

    And lastly, if you simply optimized your output (and chose better spells) to do more healing with the correct secondary stats (as opposed to my example on beta where I am stacking a boatload of crit), you would actually have a higher gain in the long run, compensating for the fact that you might be casting 4 or 5 fewer chain heals (i.e. stacking a massive amount of crit) over a 6-8 minute fight

    It isn't always about regen, even when you are OoMing. That's the point. Even on beta today, I still see shaman who do nothing but CH spam for absurd levels on actual duration normal mode (since heroic / mythic testing is done) fights. The end result is they OoM themselves within 3 or 4 minutes. Then they are stuck wondering what to cast. Meanwhile, I almost have no mana problems and it isn't even about optimizing output. You just get used to using more efficient spells and casting when you need to. Having 10% mana or whatever from a boatload of crit isn't going to change this. And this is with me using high-tide and still having CH be around 10-15% of my output. I can do the same thing with wellspring - its just about how you use your whole toolkit and not reacting to every single thing.
    Last edited by Gardiff; 2016-07-23 at 02:53 AM.

  8. #428
    Hi Gardiff
    I noticed that you've taken EST and High Tide. Is that the go to for aoe heals?

  9. #429
    I actually swap around high tide / wellspring in raids a lot (I don't use Ascendance really at all). Just depends on how big the group is and how effective I think wellspring will be based on positioning of the raid. Both can be used effectively if you know what they are doing.

    As for EST, I have been picking it more or less in these raids (almost never in 5 mans), but on live I may be more inclined to take vigor since on a lot of the more recent stuff I have been doing, it has only been normal mode as the mythic/heroic testing has concluded. I don't find myself needing the 10% health in these easier raid tests and so I usually try to see how effective I can make EST be on certain fights. On live, I am going to be swapping around on this tier as well, but the 10% health (or the CD APT) may be required on certain fights. It doesn't mean EST is bad, but in the end it is just healing. Sometimes you just need an extra raid CD or the 10% health on tanks and EST is not a tank CD in any sense. It is more effectively used for constant damage raid healing (like a constant aura tick) or a quick set of mini-bursts on a group of people (not one big burst).

  10. #430
    Quote Originally Posted by Gardiff View Post
    I actually swap around high tide / wellspring in raids a lot (I don't use Ascendance really at all). Just depends on how big the group is and how effective I think wellspring will be based on positioning of the raid. Both can be used effectively if you know what they are doing.

    As for EST, I have been picking it more or less in these raids (almost never in 5 mans), but on live I may be more inclined to take vigor since on a lot of the more recent stuff I have been doing, it has only been normal mode as the mythic/heroic testing has concluded. I don't find myself needing the 10% health in these easier raid tests and so I usually try to see how effective I can make EST be on certain fights. On live, I am going to be swapping around on this tier as well, but the 10% health (or the CD APT) may be required on certain fights. It doesn't mean EST is bad, but in the end it is just healing. Sometimes you just need an extra raid CD or the 10% health on tanks and EST is not a tank CD in any sense. It is more effectively used for constant damage raid healing (like a constant aura tick) or a quick set of mini-bursts on a group of people (not one big burst).
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  11. #431
    Arent you guys having any trouble to heal timewalking or dungeons in general?

    I have a full hfc heroic shaman and leveld a shaman in another realm to play with my old guildmates, and ffs i was lvl 60 when the pre patch was on live, and jesus what they ve done with the tank healing, didnt you guys had any trouble to heal tanks without mastery earth shield and unleash life?

    Jesus, even after lvl 100 with all talents undulation and everything on my shaman that doesnt have a huge mastery stack i am having trouble to heal any tank in any encounter.

    I really think they should give us earth shield back or implemented the healing surge /wave HST PvP buff for pve too.

  12. #432
    Dreadlord ItsTiddles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heelflip View Post
    Arent you guys having any trouble to heal timewalking or dungeons in general?

    I have a full hfc heroic shaman and leveld a shaman in another realm to play with my old guildmates, and ffs i was lvl 60 when the pre patch was on live, and jesus what they ve done with the tank healing, didnt you guys had any trouble to heal tanks without mastery earth shield and unleash life?

    Jesus, even after lvl 100 with all talents undulation and everything on my shaman that doesnt have a huge mastery stack i am having trouble to heal any tank in any encounter.

    I really think they should give us earth shield back or implemented the healing surge /wave HST PvP buff for pve too.
    I'll be honest, I only had one tank who I noticed a problem on. I'm pretty sure he was still learning his new changes, though.

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  13. #433
    Having to make a really really hard decision. At the moment, our heal roster for Legion has Holy priest, a Disc (hes an on/off player), a MW...and then whatever I choose. I was going to go Druid, but Im finding that I'm not comfortable healing 20m as a druid... Im having a hard time not rejuve spamming the raid like I did in 10man days. I think perhaps shaman will be better for a larger group for the play-style I'm used to (which is pre-7.0 MW)

    Ive asked druid forum this as well, but I'd like to hear shaman thoughts too.... if there is only 1 druid or 1 shaman in our roster, which would be better for the raid progressive wise? I'd assume shaman due to the more CDs and mastery and what-have-you... but I do know druid is versatile as heck.

  14. #434
    Deleted
    Recruit another healer (Paladin or Druid) and play Shaman. 4healing with a Disc does not seem like a good idea.

  15. #435
    Quote Originally Posted by treeqt View Post
    Recruit another healer (Paladin or Druid) and play Shaman. 4healing with a Disc does not seem like a good idea.
    I didnt mention our 5th because I'm not 100% sure what he is gonna play, but I am 90% sure he will go Hpal, which is why I assume its either druid or shaman.
    I did convince our MW to go Druid if I go Shaman, due to the fact that I think Druid will be better for the roster vs a MW. Also, gimme dat innervate.

  16. #436
    Quote Originally Posted by Grovewalker View Post
    I didnt mention our 5th because I'm not 100% sure what he is gonna play, but I am 90% sure he will go Hpal, which is why I assume its either druid or shaman.
    I did convince our MW to go Druid if I go Shaman, due to the fact that I think Druid will be better for the roster vs a MW. Also, gimme dat innervate.
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  17. #437
    Dreadlord ItsTiddles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by treeqt View Post
    Recruit another healer (Paladin or Druid) and play Shaman. 4healing with a Disc does not seem like a good idea.
    I've seen some extremely well played disc priests. I'm happy that one of our healers will be disc, it looks like it'll have an interesting feel to heal with. Especially when there starts being more gear and we would normally sit one for a dps/have them switch specs.

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  18. #438
    This forum needs more activity... Cmon beta peeps, give us more info! Also, mods, can we have a sticky for Resto Shaman in 7.0.3 like the holy priests have?

  19. #439
    Quote Originally Posted by Menards View Post
    This forum needs more activity... Cmon beta peeps, give us more info! Also, mods, can we have a sticky for Resto Shaman in 7.0.3 like the holy priests have?
    Not a whole lot more to report than what's been told. All in all we haven't changed a whole lot from WoD, so it's not like the other specs that are still getting massive tuning done still.

    I think the biggest thing here that changed from WoD is that without spirit there should never come a time when we're hitting only or mostly Chain heal, our mana won't sustain it.

  20. #440
    Quote Originally Posted by Zirhark View Post
    Not a whole lot more to report than what's been told. All in all we haven't changed a whole lot from WoD, so it's not like the other specs that are still getting massive tuning done still.

    I think the biggest thing here that changed from WoD is that without spirit there should never come a time when we're hitting only or mostly Chain heal, our mana won't sustain it.
    Just have to make sure you take into account fight length, mana regen mechanics. If there is a regen mechanic on the fight or if it only lasts around 5 minutes, you can definitely get away with chain heal spam. This is probably 1/2 the fights on beta at least.

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