The Legend of Heroes series.

[Velshin]

I am also curious about how truly powerful the Dominions are compare to Enforcers or Anguis of Ouroboros. We got some glimpse of their capabilities in Sky 3rd chapter.

I mean Kevin was casually able to defeat a weakened Weissman (I still do think he would be defeated even if he is no wounded if Kevin goes all out with his stigma mode power).

So I am curious how powerful Selnate is and how much can she competes with the Grandmaster of Ouroboros.

[Arrashi]

I am also curious about how truly powerful the Dominions are compare to Enforcers or Anguis of Ouroboros. We got some glimpse of their capabilities in Sky 3rd chapter.

I mean Kevin was casually able to defeat a weakened Weissman (I still do think he would be defeated even if he is no wounded if Kevin goes all out with his stigma mode power).

So I am curious how powerful Selnate is and how much can she competes with the Grandmaster of Ouroboros.

I think it varies from character to character. Avoiding spoilers from ao/zero, some anguis are VERY combat oriented, while others are Not so combat ariented.

[Velshin]

I think it varies from character to character. Avoiding spoilers from ao/zero, some anguis are VERY combat oriented, while others are Not so combat ariented.

I see! well is there any hope for ao/zero translation and release for steam yet?

Basically ao/zero takes place after the third Sky game but before the first Cold Steel right?

[Val the Moofia Boss]

I see! well is there any hope for ao/zero translation and release for steam yet?

Basically ao/zero takes place after the third Sky game but before the first Cold Steel right?

The Crossbell duology takes place at the same time as the CS1-CS2 arc, but Zero starts a little before CS1.

The Geofront is 50% done editing Zero. Translation of Ao is complete, and the Geofront team will begin editing it after they finish editing and release Zero.

[Arrashi]

I see! well is there any hope for ao/zero translation and release for steam yet?

Basically ao/zero takes place after the third Sky game but before the first Cold Steel right?

Nope its takes part during cold steel. Some events, like attack on certain fortress can be seen...from more crossbell perspective. It also continues renne/kevin stories. Not saying more ! Its pretty much trails in the sky 4 and 5.

The issue is is that ao/zero are in shitty place. Falcom doesn't seem to own PC version (there is chinese one tho), and XSEED seems to have problem getting portable versions and porting them onto PC. As it is, it seems like a massive problem to get it, and on other hand the EVOLUTION version also seems to be pain to license since guys who own it (its not falcom who did remaster) seems to charge absurd prices for it. So it would end as 60euro game.

[Velshin]

Ok I just finished ToCSI:

Damn those twists at the end is so awesome. I must say some things were kinda obvious but other things got me offguard like Giliath being shot at the heart really surprised me a lot..also they didn't confirm his death yet so if nothing confirm yet I guess he is still alive somehow because yeah I have been reading and hearing about his name ever since FC Sky. The moment I saw that character in Trails of Sky 3rd I knew he will play a major role in the story. So part of me are leaning more toward him being still alive even though it was a good shot at the heart and no normal human can survive that to be honest.
But yeah the moment these flying machines started flying I got a great deja vu flash back of Xenogears RPG and Code Geass anime. And the bad ass moment of the instructors fighting together damn gave me goospump haha so bad ass. The revelation of Crow being C was good but I still do think the revelation of Alba being Weissman was better in Sky imo but nevertheless still pretty good. Question about the very end before Rean flew off, It was Laura who talked to him saying that one day they will come back together and stuff. I guess the character can be different depends on the link bonds and the one who I danced with during the end of the festival right?

Thank god I just finished it in time now I will be ready for ToCSII but yeah damn that cliffhanger at the end... I feel sorry for those who finished the game when it was released and kept waiting and waiting for the release of the second one....exactly kinda reminded me of the anime Code Geass first season ending cliffhanger.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

According to Hatsuu in the Falcom Discord, ToCS2 releases tomorrow morning at 10 AM PST. The costume DLC should be up within an hour of the launch.

I will be documenting my thoughts in a notepad file as I go along. I have been told that the game still uses the calendar system, so I will label spoilers by what day they are on. If you are in the Falcom Discord, be sure to use ROT13 to label and decode spoilers. Anyways, cya on the other side!



Source

[Velshin]

I am so gonna get the dlcs stuff for sure. I wanted to start NG+ with nightmare in ToCSI but I am so hyped for ToCSII.

[crimson]

I am so gonna get the dlcs stuff for sure. I wanted to start NG+ with nightmare in ToCSI but I am so hyped for ToCSII.

I'm gonna finish my ng+ first before playing CS2, with a walkthrough and pressing escape to accelerate scenes you've already seen it won't even take that long. Wanna get all bonds maxed and as many of the characters available during the dance event since that will unlock additional scenes in the second one.

[Mavecryst]

Nope, in fact i found them to be pretty much the most boring characters in entire game. They have boring cliched personalities, and both use "Muh mom is ded" as their entire motivation and character development. Which is sad, given that everyones parents (save for gaius) are dead.

Now that is a magical girl. Not that poor "Im just generic white magician girl" crap emma pulls off.

I have to disagree with just the facts alone, other than my opinions. Neither Machias nor Jusis used the "someone valuable to me is dead" as their entire motivation. Sure it was a trigger point particularly in Machias' case, but there were other key factors as well, like their general upbringing and intrinsic values. Their character development happened quite believably as well.

As Val quoted from the poster on steam, their first few conversations were one of the first interesting and meaningful developments in the game, and it happened in the prologue. By contrast, it took me about 4 chapters into Trails in the Sky FC before I became invested in Estelle and Joshua. I almost gave up multiple times finishing that game.

And it's not really fair to compare the less-developed characters to the "best" character in Berseria. While I definitely think Magilou is awesome, the rest of the Berseria cast could not keep up. Likewise, Cold Steel has its share of better characters (Jusis, Machias, Towa, Laura and Victor Arseid) and more boring ones (Rean, Gaius).

Thing is, I really like how much hinting the game does at its character developments before they actually happen. To draw on the comparison with Berseria again, I think the only character that made me curious about their past was Magilou again. The rest were either given upfront or didn't interest me enough to care. With Cold Steel, I really enjoyed looking forward to and discovering Jusis, Machias, Fie and Sara's pasts, and Millium looks to be another interesting story there. Again though, Rean and Gaius were just kinda there. Emma doesn't really give off the generic white mage vibe, not sure where you're getting that.... I'm curious about her as well actually. Elliot was actually kinda cool and quite a different story, which I appreciated even if his story was not impactful in any way.

[Arrashi]

snip

I gotta disagree here. The problem with CS is that pretty much all characters are very straight take on generic "high school anime/harem" tropes. All characters have very straight up personality, lacking nuance, and any major twist to that. 4 characters are pretty much defined by "One parent dead - problems with remaining parent".

And no jusis and machias don't have interesting and meaningul development, and coming to obvious conclusions isnt great development either. They heavily overuse "dead mom and shit" to justify everything about them. They both have very trope-ish personality, and there is almost no nuance to it. In fact almost all of CS characters can be easily summarised as their trope:
Rean - harem anime protagonist
Eliot - your beta'est friend
Gaius - chill dude
Laura - stick in ass female
Emma - white magician
Machias - nerd asshole
Jusis - rich asshole
Alisa - thundere "You baka"
Fie - deadpan

And out of all those characters, fie is the only one that elaborates on herself and receives actual development, subverting her trope over the course of game. Other than that, most characters have only one moment in game that tries to give them any sort of big development or significance. The fact that they are all high schoolers doesnt help either.

As for comparing it to berseria, it does much better job. All characters feel unique, and adding something special to team. The group has great chemistry and you see interactions of all characters with all other characters. And i wouldn't say that magilou is only to be great. Both laphicet and elanor have great story arcs, and great development where you see them going from interesting point A to interesting point B. Eizen is great, both personality wise and story wise especially if *sob* you know *sob* how it all will end *sob* in zestiria. Even roukorou adds alot with his relaxed blood knight attitude.

You also ignore one thing - while yes, berseria is single game and CS is spread over 4 games, it doesn't change the fact that berseria is shorter and 1st CS while menaging to tell much, much more story and develop its characters in much more complex way.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

I gotta disagree here. The problem with CS is that pretty much all characters are very straight take on generic "high school anime/harem" tropes. All characters have very straight up personality, lacking nuance, and any major twist to that. 4 characters are pretty much defined by "One parent dead - problems with remaining parent".

And no jusis and machias don't have interesting and meaningul development, and coming to obvious conclusions isnt great development either. They heavily overuse "dead mom and shit" to justify everything about them. They both have very trope-ish personality, and there is almost no nuance to it. In fact almost all of CS characters can be easily summarised as their trope:
Rean - harem anime protagonist
Eliot - your beta'est friend
Gaius - chill dude
Laura - stick in ass female
Emma - white magician
Machias - nerd asshole
Jusis - rich asshole
Alisa - thundere "You baka"
Fie - deadpan

And out of all those characters, fie is the only one that elaborates on herself and receives actual development, subverting her trope over the course of game. Other than that, most characters have only one moment in game that tries to give them any sort of big development or significance. The fact that they are all high schoolers doesnt help either.

As for comparing it to berseria, it does much better job. All characters feel unique, and adding something special to team. The group has great chemistry and you see interactions of all characters with all other characters. And i wouldn't say that magilou is only to be great. Both laphicet and elanor have great story arcs, and great development where you see them going from interesting point A to interesting point B. Eizen is great, both personality wise and story wise especially if *sob* you know *sob* how it all will end *sob* in zestiria. Even roukorou adds alot with his relaxed blood knight attitude.

You also ignore one thing - while yes, berseria is single game and CS is spread over 4 games, it doesn't change the fact that berseria is shorter and 1st CS while menaging to tell much, much more story and develop its characters in much more complex way.

Cold Steel is just a reliant on anime tropes as Trails in the Sky.

Most of the Trails in the Sky characters are distinctive "carrictures" as opposed to rounded out people. They can be summed up in a single sentence. Zin is the boisterous monk. Agate is the serious, by-the-book warrior. Schera is the wise, aloof sister. Kevin is the loveable goof of a pastor, and so on. They don't have the flexibilty of real people or the thought provoking substance of the greats like Guts, Allen Schezar, Reinhard von Lohengramm, Fei Fong Wong, Cecil, and so on. To say claim that these characters are original or somehow less "cliche" than the cast of CS1 is to admit that you haven't been familar with the genre's older entries. These archetypes have existed since the JRPGs of the 90's, inspired by the anime of the 80's, which themselves were adaptations of manga from the 70's. Besides modern players being unlikely to recgnoize these cliches, the other reason why Trails in the Sky's characters are praised is because of their execution. Notice how very few characters in the cast stand on their own as interesting characters. For every Alan Richard, you get a Mayor Dalmore. For every Renne, you get a Luciola. Most of the so-called "great" characters in 'Sky are actually one part of a great pair. Without the Rusells to bounce off of, Agate would just be another boring, serious warrior who lugged around a gigantic anime sword. Without the mature Kilika, his evil former friend Walter, and their shared drama at the dojo in Calvard, Zin would just be yet another anime monk/brawler with Dragonball/Fist of the North Star superpowers. Kevin is an entertaining but ultimately forgettable character until his ruthless assasination of Weissman recontextualized his behaviour and lent actual depth to his character. When the execution is less than stellar, you get Estelle, the stereotypical ditzy tomboy and makes up one half of the oh-so cliche "energetic girl, brooding guy" archetype anime and manga have been using for decades. With poor execution, you get Scherazard, another "mature, wise big sister" who didn't even get to have her character expanded upon because her interactions with Luciola were so poor.

Scherazard and Luciola were orphans who were adopted by the leader of a traveling circus troupe. Luciola developed a crush on their adopted father, and when she was rejected after confessing her "love" for him, she shoved him off a cliff. She then promptly runs away to join an evil organization, made up of evil people who do evil things, because there is "darkness within her heart". Excuse me? This one of those moments where my suspension of disbelief was completely shattered while playing Trails in the Sky. The game had consistently given us usually empathetic motives that were always at least believable, but this was a new low for the writing. The game never goes explains what this vague "darkness is" and why that would lead someone to join this organization. Luciola's characterization has as much depth as a piece of cardboard. When interacting with Luciola, Scherazard's character is only marginally expanded upon by her sorrowful, empathetic, and forgiving reaction towards Luciola. Neither character goes anywhere, despite ostenisbly being the main characters of the Rolent chapter. In fact, literally everyone other party member get more development when they wake up from their dream than Schera and Luciola did with their dialogue!

As I stated in the Steam thread, CS1 uses archetypes as SHORTHAND.

Stereotypical characters ≠ bad characters. Tropes are tools. Cliches are shorthand for what a character is supposed to be. Cliches are used as a starting point to establish a character quickly before building upon that base. All characters do this, be it the very best characters like Captain Picard from Star Trek, Luke Skywalker from Star Wars, Frodo from Lord of the Rings, or Roy Mustang from Fullmetal Alchemist. Bad characters use a cliche, and then never build from there. The cast of Cold Steel are not the later. The LoH games features very large casts, and must use cliches (shorthand) to establish a large amount of characters quickly during the introduction before elaborating on them during their moments.

For the sake of demonstration, I will use Jusis and Machias to illustrate my point. Jusis Albarea and Machias Regnitz are among the very best characters in Trails of Cold Steel, if not the entire LoH series. In just a span of ten minutes of screen time during the prologue chapter, Falcom is able to build Jusis and Machias as one of the most interesting characters in the story, as well establish their character arcs, the state of the world, the themes of the story...

That said, it goes without saying that Gaius and Elliot haven't gotten the same amount of attention as Jusis and Machias. As a result, they don't have anywhere near the level of depth as the latter two, but that's because this is the first half of the story, and their time to shine and receive character development happens in CS2.

On another note (I've already touched upon this), but CS1 also interweaves worldbuilding with it's characterization and character development. The main draw of the LoH setting is how the Orbal Revolution is overturning the world order, shaking the very foundations of society, tradition, and religious beliefs. Exacerbating the problem is that the OR is taking place at a far faster rate than our own industrial revolution, and society can't catch up with the rate of technological advancement. With so many characters in the ensemble game that is Trails in the Sky, you'd think that this would be a prime opportunity to tie worldbuilding and characterization together, but that never happens. Unlike CS1's cast, Tita Rusell and her specialization as a mechanic is the one and only character in the main cast whose life is even remotely affected by the very premise of the setting. All of the characters' family members who died in the backstory died independently of the OR's existence. Zin's story is rooting in wushu drama and DBZ magic, and Kevin is literally just a medieval inquistor. Compare this to Class VII, where most of the characters, who they are and what they are struggling with is shaped by effects the Orbal Revolution had on society. One need look no further than Jusis, Machias, Elliot, Gaius, and Fie for proof of that.

[Arrashi]

Cold Steel is just a reliant on anime tropes as Trails in the Sky.

Most of the Trails in the Sky characters are distinctive "carrictures" as opposed to rounded out people. They can be summed up in a single sentence. Zin is the boisterous monk. Agate is the serious, by-the-book warrior. Schera is the wise, aloof sister. Kevin is the loveable goof of a pastor, and so on. They don't have the flexibilty of real people or the thought provoking substance of the greats like Guts, Allen Schezar, Reinhard von Lohengramm, Fei Fong Wong, Cecil, and so on. To say claim that these characters are original or somehow less "cliche" than the cast of CS1 is to admit that you haven't been familar with the genre's older entries. These archetypes have existed since the JRPGs of the 90's, inspired by the anime of the 80's, which themselves were adaptations of manga from the 70's. Besides modern players being unlikely to recgnoize these cliches, the other reason why Trails in the Sky's characters are praised is because of their execution. Notice how very few characters in the cast stand on their own as interesting characters. For every Alan Richard, you get a Mayor Dalmore. For every Renne, you get a Luciola. Most of the so-called "great" characters in 'Sky are actually one part of a great pair. Without the Rusells to bounce off of, Agate would just be another boring, serious warrior who lugged around a gigantic anime sword. Without the mature Kilika, his evil former friend Walter, and their shared drama at the dojo in Calvard, Zin would just be yet another anime monk/brawler with Dragonball/Fist of the North Star superpowers. Kevin is an entertaining but ultimately forgettable character until his ruthless assasination of Weissman recontextualized his behaviour and lent actual depth to his character. When the execution is less than stellar, you get Estelle, the stereotypical ditzy tomboy and makes up one half of the oh-so cliche "energetic girl, brooding guy" archetype anime and manga have been using for decades. With poor execution, you get Scherazard, another "mature, wise big sister" who didn't even get to have her character expanded upon because her interactions with Luciola were so poor.

Scherazard and Luciola were orphans who were adopted by the leader of a traveling circus troupe. Luciola developed a crush on their adopted father, and when she was rejected after confessing her "love" for him, she shoved him off a cliff. She then promptly runs away to join an evil organization, made up of evil people who do evil things, because there is "darkness within her heart". Excuse me? This one of those moments where my suspension of disbelief was completely shattered while playing Trails in the Sky. The game had consistently given us usually empathetic motives that were always at least believable, but this was a new low for the writing. The game never goes explains what this vague "darkness is" and why that would lead someone to join this organization. Luciola's characterization has as much depth as a piece of cardboard. When interacting with Luciola, Scherazard's character is only marginally expanded upon by her sorrowful, empathetic, and forgiving reaction towards Luciola. Neither character goes anywhere, despite ostenisbly being the main characters of the Rolent chapter. In fact, literally everyone other party member get more development when they wake up from their dream than Schera and Luciola did with their dialogue!

As I stated in the Steam thread, CS1 uses archetypes as SHORTHAND.



That said, it goes without saying that Gaius and Elliot haven't gotten the same amount of attention as Jusis and Machias. As a result, they don't have anywhere near the level of depth as the latter two, but that's because this is the first half of the story, and their time to shine and receive character development happens in CS2.

On another note (I've already touched upon this), but CS1 also interweaves worldbuilding with it's characterization and character development. The main draw of the LoH setting is how the Orbal Revolution is overturning the world order, shaking the very foundations of society, tradition, and religious beliefs. Exacerbating the problem is that the OR is taking place at a far faster rate than our own industrial revolution, and society can't catch up with the rate of technological advancement. With so many characters in the ensemble game that is Trails in the Sky, you'd think that this would be a prime opportunity to tie worldbuilding and characterization together, but that never happens. Unlike CS1's cast, Tita Rusell and her specialization as a mechanic is the one and only character in the main cast whose life is even remotely affected by the very premise of the setting. All of the characters' family members who died in the backstory died independently of the OR's existence. Zin's story is rooting in wushu drama and DBZ magic, and Kevin is literally just a medieval inquistor. Compare this to Class VII, where most of the characters, who they are and what they are struggling with is shaped by effects the Orbal Revolution had on society. One need look no further than Jusis, Machias, Elliot, Gaius, and Fie for proof of that.

Its kinda funny how you bash TITS so far, given that CS is literally far more shallow in every aspect. So going for same overwiev of CS characters as you did.
Rean - highschool boy
Jusis - highschool boy
Everyone else - highschool boy/girl

The diffrence betwen TITS and CS, is that TITS stays true to basics of JRPGs, and perfects them. It has much better pacing, and form of FC allows you to interact with every charcter in a way where they are always main focus when they are introduced. What CS does is playing safe into whats currently popular aka whole highschool craze. The problem is that it puts standard falcom writing into setting they dont understand. The result is persona without its style. Jitsu wa watashi wa, without its humor. The characters are shallow, because falcom taps into very cliched setting, without willingness to push hard enough to create something unique. As result you have extremely tropeish characters, that lack any distinct qualities. Using tropes isn't problem. Not altering them in any way is.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Its kinda funny how you bash TITS so far, given that CS is literally far more shallow in every aspect. So going for same overwiev of CS characters as you did.
Rean - highschool boy
Jusis - highschool boy
Everyone else - highschool boy/girl

I've already covered how unique Jusis is, so I'll leave my dissertation on the AWESOMENESS that Rean Schwarzer right here.

As for everyone else, let's see...

Elliot: Coddled young man who wants to learn music. Is pressured by his father to pursue a safe (can't fail an interview or not have the skills for the job) and patriotic job. Makes a compromise with his father to get what he wants. Is somewhat spineless, cowardly, and a follower who doesn't want trouble, as he distances himself from arguments. Is disappointed in himself about this attitude and wants to change, and knows that changing one's innate character is difficult.

Emma: Another example is Emma. On paper, she's a pretty compelling character: she's (CS1 spoilers)a witch on an imperative mission who is trying to lay low in a society she doesn't quite fit in. She tries to coneal her unpopular animists belief to avoid backlash from traditionalists like Machias and to evade the watchful eye of other dangerous people like Misty and Ouroboros. She tries to avoid arguments and takes on the role of team mom.

Those two already were more interesting to me as characters than most of the Sky cast, and unlike the latter, they didn't need another character to stand on their own. On the other hand, I can't say the same of Fie, Gaius, and Laura, who are actually quite lacking in characterization.

I am not blind to the fact that CS1 also suffers from the same problems which plagued Trails in the Sky's writing. Let's take Gaius for example, who is introduced as an outsider to Erebonian society. There is an incredible amount of story potential to be had here, with Gaius being able to bring an alternative world view with which to contrast Imperial attitudes. This is only ever brought up in the prologue when Gaius witnesses the clash between Jusis and Machias, and when Rean is invited by Patrick to the noble palor. Two lines, in the entire game, of him just asking if this is the way it is in the Empire. He could have added to the story in that regard, but all he did was act as an audience surrogate for confirmation that what were seeing was really happening, which we didn't even need because we just saw it happen. Gaius also doesn't have anyone to bounce off of to build up the world and develop character. He could have talked with Emma about their unpopular animists beliefs. He could have bounced off of Machias and their increduality at the class system. He could have bounced off of Elliot and their ties to the military. Outside of Nord, all Gaius does is act as that melee party member with some evade and occasionally inserts "the wind" in what little dialogue he has every now and then. Hopefully CS2 does something with his character, since he will be rushing home to recover the Nord DK before Ouroboros can.

What I have said is that I feel that CS1 is an overall improvement over Sky, both in the character writing (see the last two pages and links), the worldbuilding (that has been gloriously interwoven with characterization and character development), villains with empathetic and believable goals (as opposed to the vague ideals of Sky), NPCs that you grow to bond with over the course of 7 chapters (as opposed to townsmen you only meet twice in Liberl and never get develop a feel for, let alone KNOW them like the students of Thors and people of Trista).

[Arrashi]

snip

Ok dude, if you consider Rean, a default anime hero "awesome" then i have no words. He is the most generic and unengaging hero you can have, short of actual harem anime protags (tho some of them are actaully much more fun and developed than rean). He has no relatable character traits (unless you consider instantly being considered leader a good writing), and is nothing but flavorless avatar of player.

Also lol at considering eliot, character with no development having better characterization than fie, who actually have entire arc to her development.

Oh yes, CS suffers from same problems that FC had. Expect its twice as long and covers half as much impostant events. Its storytelling is slog, and with as little development characters get, it gets even worse. Also what are those "villains with empathetic and believable goals" you are talking about ? The terrorist going "we do stuff because we got wronged ?" Truly fascinating. The fact that terrorists are complete failures doesn't help either. At least sky bandits were likeable comedic relief.

[crimson]

And cs2 is downloading.

Pretty hyped right now since I pretty much finished my ng+ nightmare playthrough, just have to do a certain final battle.

[Velshin]

And cs2 is downloading.

Pretty hyped right now since I pretty much finished my ng+ nightmare playthrough, just have to do a certain final battle.

Yay indeed same here downloading it now with all of the dlcs.

let's rock guys!

- - - Updated - - -

Ok I just finished the prologue in ToCS2, did they removed the Turbo mode feature? I hope not...because it was one of the best tbh.

Nvm just noticed the button for turbo mode wasn't like ToCS1 so I just changed it back to how it used to be yay.

I am in love with the continue from latest save feature so damn masterpiece. This is one of the main reasons why I love pc gaming more than consoles haha.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Just got home, bought and downloaded the game. I have my notepad file saved and ready for me to jot down my thoughts as I play. Just need to make some food and plunge in!

[Arrashi]

Welp first dialogue in game:
"Rean you are chosen one"

Fuck.

[Velshin]

Welp first dialogue in game:
"Rean you are chosen one"

Fuck.

Yeah that made me cringe haha.

I love the dlcs specially the Joshua outfit looks awesome imo.