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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    This is pretty much it. PVP is great when you can just hop into it. If at first you need to grind out a set of gear to be relevant... at least for me, I'd rather not do it. Players don't need a skill and experience advantage on top of a pure stat power advantage. If you are new to PVP or are trying a new alt, you're going to suck, and that's really all you need.

    I hated PVP gear since resilience.
    ... except you cant just "hop into it" and anyone who thinks that is deluded or incapable of reading. Youll have -no PvP talents- if you just "hop into it"; I.E. youll be even more of a liability to your team than if you had sub-par gear prior. And you cant just hop into Ashran (even a losing one) and grab artifacts and treasures for 4 hours to max out those PvP talents (which you CAN do currently and have a complete set of Honor gear) - its several weeks to a month or more of grinding.

    So, yeah, being sub-par because you haven't "ground your way up" is actually going to be WORSE in the new system. WORSE. Let it sink in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    That tweet is out of date and old.

    Players in the alpha (PVP testing started last week) have noted for 1 ilevel increase they are seeing roughly 1% difference in stats. Primary stats is going to still be a big deal scaling wise while not so much with secondary stats (they changed how secondary stats scale with increasing gear levels).

    Second of all, gear is capped in PVP instances in WoD and no player has a 30/40% difference increase.

    http://beta.wowdb.com/items?filter-build=20810

    The Legion PVP gear datamine also exposes that Blizz is a bunch of liars.
    Basically all of this.

    So not only are you going to be a liability until you forcibly grind PvP talents, there is ALSO a gear disparity. Even if we go by the original numbers and not what people on the Alpha are noticing (which was about 1%/5 iLevels) - even under the publicly stated 1%/5, you're looking at a TWENTY PERCENT difference between a new 110 and someone with high iLevel raid gear/pvp gear... because iLevel 800 is the rough starting point at 110, and high level raid gear (mythic) is already 890.

    People need to wake up and learn to read what is actually going on.

    This new system is going to be MORE grindy, not less, and youll be MORE of a liability until you complete that grind than if you stepped into a BG with LFR raid gear or Baleful gear currently.

    Gonna be great, i tell ya. Holinka strikes again. HueHueHue.

  2. #102
    Youll have -no PvP talents- if you just "hop into it"; I.E. youll be even more of a liability to your team than if you had sub-par gear prior.
    Not even remotely. At present alpha it is trivial to get PvP level 10. Past that, I haven't seen a single PvP talent in the entire alpha worth more than an extra 20, 30, 40+% more stats over the competition.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Caargon View Post
    Not even remotely. At present alpha it is trivial to get PvP level 10. Past that, I haven't seen a single PvP talent in the entire alpha worth more than an extra 20, 30, 40+% more stats over the competition.
    I can think of many off the top of my head.

    Specs are different and some talents are really that strong. The talents to the far right column are designed to be stronger anyways, or else it defeats the point of making the Prestige system a high opportunity cost to do in the first place if your "best talents" are in the first column.

    What we know with Legion PVP thus far:

    1. There will still be a gear disparity
    2. The cap from MoP and WoD to discourage PVE gear usage in PVP instances is being removed.
    3. Some specs are heavily reliant on PVP talents to the far right while others can function fine without even with PVP talents.
    Battle for Abilities = WoD 2.0


    Quote Originally Posted by Rekz View Post
    I'll trust blizzard over your assessment. They've been doing this for a long time. It may very well be that your class is nerfed in which case, your class will feel as if it doesn't work correctly.

  4. #104
    Herald of the Titans Orangetai420's Avatar
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    It was a problem but far from the only one. It will certainly make class balance easier which is the main problem.
    MMO-C, home of the worst community on the internet.

  5. #105
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Krassz1096 View Post
    You're missing the point of the system. I'm genuinely surprised how many people think they're removing gear because of it being "hard to get" or something.

    They're giving classes stat templates instead of gear. So if X spec is too strong in PvP, they can nerf it's stats directly, without affecting PvE.

    That's the only reason they're removing gear. It makes it easier to balance.

    Even then, iLvls will give a % stat increase every set increment. So gear will still exist. But the tuning of the stat templates is the sole reason behind this.
    The gear scaling in pvp supposedly is set to 1/10 of pve ilvl growth. So 20 ilvls should be around 2% increase, not some 20%+++ crazyness like we have now.
    So there's two main points to it.

  6. #106
    I never really liked gear in pvp. It never made sense to me. Pvp is supposed to be a contest of skill between two players. The better skilled player should win because they are more skilled, not because they had better gear. Would the Olympics be fair if some of the athletes were allowed to have clothes that enhanced their performance? What if Hope Solo had a shirt that gave her +10% to block goals and everyone on the opposing team was wearing normal uniforms, would that be a "fair" match?

    When I beat someone (or get beaten) in Pvp I want it to be because of skill, not the clothes I was wearing.... I understand why Pve/raids need the gear treadmill.... but not pvp...

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Sukk View Post
    The fact that there is no pvp gear in legion will make it so I can also have fun in pvp on my alts w/o getting Roflstomped for 1-2 weeks before I get enough gear to actually pvp.

    It's a good change.
    1-2 weeks, 5 characters i play pvp on, all 5 geared in 2 days each. And they were on days i also had work most of the time.

  8. #108
    very good site

    content for sharing

  9. #109
    gear is pvers' lame excuse of not being able to play well in pvp

    they keep saying they are so "skilled", the reason they lose is because they don't have the best gear

    funny at the beginning of every season, everyone got the same gear, if they are so "skilled" they should be able to win every pvp and get the best gear, and it will get better and better from there lol

    now with legion, pvers will do well in pvp especially world pvp, not because of their "better skill", but because they will get better gear and faster artifact powers from raiding, ironic right? lol

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagthul View Post
    ... except you cant just "hop into it" and anyone who thinks that is deluded or incapable of reading. Youll have -no PvP talents- if you just "hop into it"; I.E. youll be even more of a liability to your team than if you had sub-par gear prior. And you cant just hop into Ashran (even a losing one) and grab artifacts and treasures for 4 hours to max out those PvP talents (which you CAN do currently and have a complete set of Honor gear) - its several weeks to a month or more of grinding.

    So, yeah, being sub-par because you haven't "ground your way up" is actually going to be WORSE in the new system. WORSE. Let it sink in.

    yes, progression is key of mmorpg, and that's how blizzard make their money, if anyone think they can just jump in and can play well, they are just delusional.

    instead, legion takes gear grinding to a new level, now artifact power will never reset for each season, that means if you want to be on top of the game, you need to grind without ever stop, throughout the whole expansion, think about it, now the single most important gear (artifact weapon) must be maintained across seasons, and blizzard will, at least that's their plan and hope, players will keep their subscription through the whole expansion

    but I have a feeling their plan will backfire, people won't take a break then come back, they will just quit, for good
    Last edited by ns66; 2016-08-25 at 09:08 PM.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by ns66 View Post
    but I have a feeling their plan will backfire, people won't take a break then come back, they will just quit, for good
    There will likely be accelerated catchup mechanics added, just as they were added for the early parts of the WoD legendary chain in later tiers.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    Q: Why was the anti-vaxxer's 4 year old child crying? A: Midlife crisis.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    There will likely be accelerated catchup mechanics added, just as they were added for the early parts of the WoD legendary chain in later tiers.
    still will be months away to be competitive, it used to be if you like to switch specialization, you just click one button, the whole set of gear although not optimum but still can be used, now if you want to change spec you need to go through the whole chain of quests to get the weapon, then start grinding for artifact powers

    it all fits into blizzard's plan of keeping more players subscribed. i can imagine in the corp meeting, the execs are breathing down designers neck, we lost subs all the time, from months to months, what gives? find a way to keep them grinding or you are fired... then they come up with artifact weapon that is biggest grind since vanilla, lol
    Last edited by ns66; 2016-08-26 at 12:53 AM.

  12. #112
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by ns66 View Post
    it all fits into blizzard's plan of keeping more players subscribed.
    finally, the WoW-conspiracy discovered, some1 call Fox and Mulder. buizzardic 12 is trying to subjugate mankind via grind-based reward-systems.

    /edit: WoD was the least grind in wow history... Legion wont be more grindy, cuz blizzard tends to learn from mistakes, even if this a gargantuan process for such behemoth we pl financed blizzard into.
    Last edited by mmocdfc202a8dc; 2016-08-26 at 01:49 AM.

  13. #113
    Also rated PvP will be off set by all the PvE heroes in the lower/mid brackets. Lets say a 3v3 arena game @1.6k cr, 3 players from PvE background with 890ilvl mythic gear and another team are casual pvpers with pvp gear from 1.5-1.7k cr bracket. That will also add ineqality in pvp and may drive even more ppl away from rated Arenas, which participation numbers were all time at its lowest in WoD s2/s3

  14. #114
    For me, gear wasn't a problem in theory...

    but in practice, it was.

    I PvE far more than I PvP, and especially at the beginning of the expansions/patches/seasons, there's usually tons of new PvE content for me to do... so I fall behind in PvP gear... and although I actually *enjoy* grinding and acquiring new gear and improving my stats... the psychological aspect of going in "underpowered" usually ended up with me just not doing that casual PvP at all, and logging out to a different game instead.

  15. #115
    Stood in the Fire Kuul's Avatar
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    Of course it's stupid as fuck to be a gladiator in greens and get roflstomped by a noob in epics just because the noob was able hit his one button that requires no aiming or whatsoever and deal half of the gladiator's HP. That just screams bullshit PvP experience.

  16. #116
    The Lightbringer gutnbrg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rzy View Post
    1-2 weeks, 5 characters i play pvp on, all 5 geared in 2 days each. And they were on days i also had work most of the time.
    how does that happen when there is a cp cap?

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Snegovik View Post
    Also rated PvP will be off set by all the PvE heroes in the lower/mid brackets. Lets say a 3v3 arena game @1.6k cr, 3 players from PvE background with 890ilvl mythic gear and another team are casual pvpers with pvp gear from 1.5-1.7k cr bracket. That will also add ineqality in pvp and may drive even more ppl away from rated Arenas, which participation numbers were all time at its lowest in WoD s2/s3
    Thats because rated play pretty much just sucks all around.

    In PvE, you can eventually put your nose to the grind stone and get the best gear/rewards possible. Even if you're not that good, you can get carried in a Mythic farm group once stuff is on farm, and get there, eventually.

    In rated PvP - you are NEVER going to be able to get the same gear as the best of the best. Ever. The entire system mathematically prevents it. Only a certain % of players can EVER get the rating required to get the really good gear. Period. Math.

    ANYONE can get Mythic gear. But only a tiny percentage of a tiny percentage can ever get the Mythic equivalent PvP gear.

    It's a shit show from minute one.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Kagthul View Post
    Thats because rated play pretty much just sucks all around.

    In PvE, you can eventually put your nose to the grind stone and get the best gear/rewards possible. Even if you're not that good, you can get carried in a Mythic farm group once stuff is on farm, and get there, eventually.

    In rated PvP - you are NEVER going to be able to get the same gear as the best of the best. Ever. The entire system mathematically prevents it. Only a certain % of players can EVER get the rating required to get the really good gear. Period. Math.

    ANYONE can get Mythic gear. But only a tiny percentage of a tiny percentage can ever get the Mythic equivalent PvP gear.

    It's a shit show from minute one.
    Exactly this, this is what a lot of PvErs miss, they think PvP is a grind and any1 can get top gear if put time and effort into it or join a good guild. Nope, in PvP only what top 5% or less get Glad gear, since half of the glad ranged teams are either piloted by same glads or plaid on their 2-3 alts

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by solarfallz View Post
    Trying to make PVP more "esports" and "fair". Understandable goals, I guess, but really they just have no place in this particular game.
    What evidence do you have to support this claim? There is no reason this game can't be fair in a pvp context.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagthul View Post
    Thats because rated play pretty much just sucks all around.

    In PvE, you can eventually put your nose to the grind stone and get the best gear/rewards possible. Even if you're not that good, you can get carried in a Mythic farm group once stuff is on farm, and get there, eventually.

    In rated PvP - you are NEVER going to be able to get the same gear as the best of the best. Ever. The entire system mathematically prevents it. Only a certain % of players can EVER get the rating required to get the really good gear. Period. Math.

    ANYONE can get Mythic gear. But only a tiny percentage of a tiny percentage can ever get the Mythic equivalent PvP gear.

    It's a shit show from minute one.
    The gear has nothing to do with it. What is your argument, you can pay someone to carry you for gear? Is this a joke? is this how far WoW has come that people use this as an argument? It doesn't make you not suck at scripted encounters.

    The gear benefit you get in pvp is so marginal it will not effect the outcome of virtually any games. Even those PvE heroes who do some arena for fun are probably not going to be able to win on their gear alone.

    It is not a shit show, it's actually pretty amazing on their part. Never should you ever have been able to get all the gear unless you earned it. If you can't earn high rating, you get no reward, period. You don't deserve it.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by JacquesPierre View Post
    What evidence do you have to support this claim? There is no reason this game can't be fair in a pvp context.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The gear has nothing to do with it. What is your argument, you can pay someone to carry you for gear? Is this a joke? is this how far WoW has come that people use this as an argument? It doesn't make you not suck at scripted encounters.
    No, im saying that the gear is available to anyone, regardless of how bad they are. Reading comprehension not your thing? Check. Ill try to keep it simpler for you from now on.

    The gear benefit you get in pvp is so marginal it will not effect the outcome of virtually any games.
    ... so debunked it's not funny, but lets try this one:

    Do you believe that (in the last few seasons) the gap between Honor gear and Conquest gear didn't decide games? If your answer is "yes, of course it did" - then the EXACT. SAME. GEAR. DISPARITY. WILL. EXIST. IN. LEGION.

    It's simple math. The base template is 90 iLevels behind top-end gear. Thats 9%. The gap between WoD CQ and Honor gear? 10 iLevels - just a little over 9.2% stat difference. Ruh roh raggy. Seems like Gear makes ... exactly the same difference it does now. Particularly since you cant get gear much above iLevel 800 from non-rated PvP. And oh yeah... dat artifact. AP gains from PvP are abysmal.

    Even those PvE heroes who do some arena for fun are probably not going to be able to win on their gear alone.
    Largely because of PvP talents, no, you're correct. That has nothing to do with the topic, though.

    It is not a shit show, it's actually pretty amazing on their part. Never should you ever have been able to get all the gear unless you earned it.
    I did earn it. I spent more time earning it than the people at the top of the ladder, even (because it was a lot slower for people who didnt do rated PvP).


    If you can't earn high rating, you get no reward, period. You don't deserve it.
    Then i have no reason to participate, and neither does anyone else who cant make Glad. With no reason to participate.. numbers fall... Enjoy the empty ladders. Remember LK? Have fun.

    And this isn't even accounting for the fact that PvP is supposed to be about skill, not gear... so this whole bullshit stance of "you didnt earn it, you dont deserve it" - is just not supportable. PvP -WAS- relatively fair. EVERYONE could get the same (best) gear. In the end, it came down to skill. Now? Its about getting in early or farming PvE for your gear, and farming PvE to power up your artifact.

    Seems legit.

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