Was PvP gear ever really the problem?

[Purpleisbetter]

Set bonuses, legendaries and PVE trinkets DO NOT WORK IN ARENA.

Best pvp equip is the same (stat budget wise) as the best pve equip, plus eventual set bonuses (i don't know if there will be pvp bonuses, i guess so).

[Mafic]

http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...ldstar-DLC-501

Gave up looking for that tweet about the max difference but i found these.

"You won't have to raid to get the best gear for PvP."
"As you get better gear, your stats are increased a smaller amount. For example, every 5 item levels may give you a 1% stat increase. This way gear still will increase your power, but it won't give you a huge advantage." So overall, again, the differences between max and a fresh character won't be that bad.

So at a 25 ilvl difference, thats a 5% difference in stats vs current WoW where its about 30/40% or more.

That tweet is out of date and old.

Players in the alpha (PVP testing started last week) have noted for 1 ilevel increase they are seeing roughly 1% difference in stats. Primary stats is going to still be a big deal scaling wise while not so much with secondary stats (they changed how secondary stats scale with increasing gear levels).

Second of all, gear is capped in PVP instances in WoD and no player has a 30/40% difference increase.

http://beta.wowdb.com/items?filter-build=20810

The Legion PVP gear datamine also exposes that Blizz is a bunch of liars.

[Lesane]

The purpose of PVP gear was to make it better than PVE gear for PVP and at the same time make it acquirable by everyone who just PVP'd enough, so they could all get to the point where they all have the same gear eventually and it all comes down to player skill. In reality you can achieve the latter without forcing people to grind gear every season and force them to maintain different sets for different gameplay so I'd say it's a great change.

[Osmeric]

http://beta.wowdb.com/items?filter-build=20810

The Legion PVP gear datamine also exposes that Blizz is a bunch of liars.

I think what that's showing is that there isn't stuff labeled functionally as "PvP gear" that is rewarded from PvP. The stats you see on it will work the same in PvE as PvE gear of the same ilvl, and the ilvls will correlate with the ilvls of gear from PvE content. They just won't be the same items.

[ItachiZaku]

I don't want some pve hero wrecking my shit, just cuz they got a raid carry for 50K.

[Deleted]

I can see a problem emerging here if they do level the playing field. You will suddenly make exploits about 500% more powerful.

Right now if you can jump on a tree in the right position and get out of a melee range it can be very situationally useful in the hands of a skilled player. But it won't allow you enough of an advantage to beat a pre-made with a pug group because ilvl trumps almost everything. It is a small but significant advantage, that's all.

If gear isn't important then suddenly jumping on that tree becomes a very big deal indeed, because that small advantage will be decisive in the majority of battlegrounds. That in itself wouldn't be a bad thing (why the hell shouldn't you jump on a tree?), but there's a lot of dirtier and more questionable tactics. Which I love using also. But if everyone starts using them bg's are going to get totally fucked.

This will be also true for botting and third-party hacking.

[akaTheDude]

As we know, Blizzard is removing, or at least significantly reducing, the effect of gear in PvP in Legion. While this seems good on paper, after giving it more thought, I came to the conclusion that the gear was never really the problem for me.

Whenever I lost in PvP and the opponent had better gear, I was OK with it. I knew that all I needed to do was play more, get the gear, and I would beat them without problems. Never did I think 'fuck this game, PvP gear is ruining it'. But the times I thought 'fuck this game, class balance is nonexistent' were countless.

I just can't shake the feeling that Blizzard is fixing the wrong problem. Maybe they are in for an unpleasant surprise.

I couldnt agree more. All Blizzard is doing is removing the carrot for players to chase. All these "die hard" pvpers will all move to arenas and never step foot back into BGs etc. Legions PvP is going to suck...mark my words

Once everyone gets through playing all their alts, it will get boring and people will quit. People like rewards, the mass majortiy of people will not going BGs to just PvP..they might at first...then the numbers will fall. People need something to achieve and not just "PvP Talents".

[ro9ue]

The fact that there is no pvp gear in legion will make it so I can also have fun in pvp on my alts w/o getting Roflstomped for 1-2 weeks before I get enough gear to actually pvp.

It's a good change.

This is pretty much it. PVP is great when you can just hop into it. If at first you need to grind out a set of gear to be relevant... at least for me, I'd rather not do it. Players don't need a skill and experience advantage on top of a pure stat power advantage. If you are new to PVP or are trying a new alt, you're going to suck, and that's really all you need.

I hated PVP gear since resilience.

[Deleted]

This is pretty much it. PVP is great when you can just hop into it. If at first you need to grind out a set of gear to be relevant... at least for me, I'd rather not do it. Players don't need a skill and experience advantage on top of a pure stat power advantage. If you are new to PVP or are trying a new alt, you're going to suck, and that's really all you need.

I hated PVP gear since resilience.

You know it takes a few hours to get a full pvp honor set? You don't have to pvp, you can just run around ashran collecting treasures.

[Deleted]

Gear is still relevant in Legion world PvP though

[Caargon]

All Blizzard is doing is removing the carrot for players to chase.

The carrot is still there. PvP still gives gear and progresses your character. That progression no longer compounds your advantage in PvP.

All these "die hard" pvpers will all move to arenas and never step foot back into BGs etc. Legions PvP is going to suck...mark my words

They never left arenas. Unrated battlegrounds were always no more than a fun way to unwind against people who can't fight on your level.

[Stormspellz]

The problem dates back to Vanilla wow where raiders outgeared and slaughtered everyone in BG's.
Seeing the pvp gear back then was to hard to get compared to getting lucky in raids the had to add stuff.

This backfired because PVP gear got to damm strong making it impossible to defend / kill a geared ganker with your pve geared toon.
then the tried a bunch of things but the advantages of gear still makes to much of a impact.

And yes... class balance please-.- chaos bolts nearly 1shotting you is not fun nor is it to wail on a blood DK and see him self heal more then you deal dmg.
Tho i can understand having (soon to be) 11 classes... with nearly all having 3 specs. it gets complicated.

Marshal/warlord gear was equivalent to t2 after it was buffed.

but back on topic, no it was never really a problem outside of silly things like ganking.

- - - Updated - - -

This is pretty much it. PVP is great when you can just hop into it. If at first you need to grind out a set of gear to be relevant... at least for me, I'd rather not do it. Players don't need a skill and experience advantage on top of a pure stat power advantage. If you are new to PVP or are trying a new alt, you're going to suck, and that's really all you need.

I hated PVP gear since resilience.

ya pvp'ing for gear is so horrible compared to dragonslaying to pvp.

[Osmeric]

ya pvp'ing for gear is so horrible compared to dragonslaying to pvp.

Blizzard didn't like how people were pvping to dragonslay.

[Stormspellz]

Blizzard didn't like how people were pvping to dragonslay.

which only happens so often, that pvp gear is on par with heroic, often due to blizz's slow turn out of content more then anything.

[Deleted]

So, what was it that's preventing you from spending a day and becoming fully decked out in honor gear? Because if you did that, you'd be 10 ilvls down, not 40.

Care to remind us what the benefit of having one day (lol) of getting shit on is? What is the unique valuable gameplay element that we'd miss out on if we started on equal footing?

[Dren The Black]

This thread is already too long to go through and read up on, but I've always said that they shouldn't make gear "just for pvp". They should make gear you can get through pvp, but is still good outside of it in pve. You shouldn't feel like you're locked out of one aspect of the game because your gear isn't optimal for it. They should implement a way for spells to treat players differently than mobs across the board and just leave it at that.

[Osmeric]

Care to remind us what the benefit of having one day (lol) of getting shit on is? What is the unique valuable gameplay element that we'd miss out on if we started on equal footing?

Likely no benefit, but at least it's better than foolishly trying to gear up in greens in battlegrounds.

[Deleted]

Likely no benefit, but at least it's better than foolishly trying to gear up in greens in battlegrounds.

My argument was aimed at game design, not so much how we as players react to it.
I agree with Ashran > Battlegrounds if you wanna get geared fast. My point is that the times of huge gear disparity don't offer any valuable game play, so we/Blizz should use this time to evaluate how important it is in an MMO in the year 2016.

[ComputerNerd]

Do you really think those fresh capped players know what theyre doing? Most likely not.

Gear is just a scapegoat shitters use to blame their losses on when 95% of it is a lack of skill. Lock main and used my legion boost on another lock and I'm outdoing enemy locks at 735+ ilvl with just 80% pvp blues plus baleful garbage. Simply because I'm watching them cast seed of corruption, rain of fire on groups of people, or drain life spamming when trying to 1v1



^This seems like a very legit behind the scenes reasoning that Blizz put a spin on to "try to make it more fair for fresh players" when the talent system is totally contradicting their intention.

Even up to Mythic HM my ret was using 4 piece conquest for the strong bonus, and now w the new characters ilvl 700 stuff is so much easier to get than their baleful system. PvP gear now encourages skipping all of the questing and half the raiding difficulties, and in Legion seems they want people to focus heavily on mindless RNG farming via shitastic D3 Jay Wilson style



You'd think that's a very reasonable solution but it's blizz. Ret hasn't been viable with any comp that revolves around it with weak damage this entire xpac with nothing but nerfs

To some extent, but the prestige system also should be taken into account but often isn't, because it doesn't support that view.
The prestige system actually goes against the "but there are talents" as there will be good reason to not keep hold of your full talents once you reach that point.
There will be this constant variation in the amount of talents anyone brings, instead of this just upward climb that gear can and absolutely has created.

PvE content has a choice of your opponents, a progression.
PvP can drop you in vs hugely better geared opponents.
This fix is very much needed.

[Krusza]

You're missing the point of the system. I'm genuinely surprised how many people think they're removing gear because of it being "hard to get" or something.

They're giving classes stat templates instead of gear. So if X spec is too strong in PvP, they can nerf it's stats directly, without affecting PvE.

That's the only reason they're removing gear. It makes it easier to balance.

Even then, iLvls will give a % stat increase every set increment. So gear will still exist. But the tuning of the stat templates is the sole reason behind this.