Researcher: Vegetarian Diet Kills Animals Too

[Bodakane]

Predators yes, they leave the rabbits, nice, birds, wild flowers and losers alone. The biodiversity on a livestock farm is orders of magnitude greater than arable farmland.

You're not understanding the problem.

By taking away the predators, you've destroyed the order of things. Prey animals grow to nuisance levels which causes humans and disease to kill them. Everything from rats to deer have now been pulled form the natural cycle and cause ever expanding problems.

The direct and indirect destruction of life by factory farms and the crop growing to feed the livestock is vastly larger than straight crop growing for human consumption. Basically its double dipping and you're conveniently ignoring that much of the crop production goes to livestock.

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I have to ask where does your food actually come from? Because I have a feeling that you don't really know how damaging vegetable production really is to the environment, humans and animals.

Its exponentially less damaging to those things then factory farms.

I feel like you didn't read the post you quoted.

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Whats off putting and causes scorn is the holier than thou attitude people take because of it. The whole undertone of "I am better than you because I am a vegan/vegetarian" is what makes people angry, not the fact they are one in the first place.

--in regards to the article--

Didn't Maddox make a vegetarian article claiming this exact thing a few years ago?

Yup, I mean, its in his tone, but it pretty much says the same thing..

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=grill

I don't know who Maddox is and its immaterial anyway.

Is it holier than thou to say dog fighting is wrong? Yes or no? Is it holier than thou to want people to stop setting kittens on fire?

[enragedgorilla]

Haha. Suck it, HUMANS. You are no better than anybody else..

Adjusted for you

[Deleted]

I don't not eat meat because it 'saves' animals. Because I know it doesn't. Less animals aren't killed because one person chooses not to eat meat.

I'm not trying to save these animals, I'm just allergic to animal proteins like fats, makes me really sick. And I don't like the idea of eating them anyway, but I never tell someone if they should also not eat meat or not.

I know that probably mice and rabbits and other field animals are most likely killed by tractors etc, but again I'm not sat eating mice on toast, I just want them potatoes. Besides, thousands of animals are loosing their habitats in South America so we can have toilet paper and fashion magazines. I try not to buy products that mention where they are from like that, such as palm oil in foods, but a lot of things in this day and age are unavoidable, unless you make absolutely everything yourself.

Is this OP just a way of saying 'haha vegans make people kill animals too'? I don't get it...if you totally want some kind of guilt free, un-materialistic lifestyle, be a Buddhist monk in the mountains where you grow your own food and weave your own clothes. Nothing is completely 'guilt free'. Kids die to make your iPhones, people will still buy iPhones.

[Bodakane]

Its totally a diet choice! Diet is just what one eats.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diet_(nutrition)

As to if they have a nervous system, no thats impossible by definition, but some can see.

http://www.nbcnews.com/science/scien...-finds-n515141

Im not telling you to be a meat eating human. Im just telling you your claim to moral high ground is why vegans always have to defend their diet choice.

Being vegan means one attempts to live a life that does the least amount of harm possible. Diet is one aspect of that. A vegan diet is kind of a misnomer. A person can choose to eat a plant based diet, but they aren't vegan as vegans try to not use any animal derived products like wool or leather for example. Therein lies the difference.

The deeper point is that I'm not trying to convince you X food is bad and I don't like so you shouldn't either. I'm trying to get you to understand that real unquestionable abuse is taking place to produce meat.

I was meat eater for a longer than I haven't been. I understand how good steak, fried chicken, bacon, etc is. I'm not telling you its bad for you or its gross, cause I don't think that.

I'm telling you that process with which that meat got to you is likely a horrible string of suffering both human and animal, that causes untold destruction to our environment.

[Simulacrum]

Sure, your broad part that being a human in modern society causes harm to others, is undeniable. But again, what is so terrible about trying to live by doing the least amount of harm possible? Why is that so off putting and cause for scorn?

Now, some of your specific points are not accurate. Mainly, veganism being a drop in the bucket. The amount of damage that factory farms produce on an environmental, human and animal level is staggering. I don't think you truly know the amount of destruction that is caused on those avenues.

I'm not saying that's a terrible thing. I'm saying you're not doing it, even though you seem to think that you are. You've arbitrarily chosen to attempt to do this for some of the things you don't like, but not for other things you do like. You only "try to live by doing the least amount of harm possible" when it suits you, not when it doesn't, which makes you no different from the people who eat meat.

As for factory farming, it certainly impacts the environment a lot, but so does everything else that we do that is just as much for our own enjoyment, and all the things we do to support these luxuries; such as mining, logging, chemical production, consuming massive quantities of fossil fuels to power industrsies that produce nothing but luxuries, etc. I don't have stats on these because they seem difficult to find, but I doubt an industry that contibutes some 3% of global GDP has a very severe impact upon the environment relative to the remaining 97%.

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So you're saying the only qualifier for if something is wrong or is not is how much enjoyment a person gets out of it?

Rape is not wrong for the rapist only for the victim?

Why don't you ask the rapist what they think.

Then you can ask me what I think about it and hear why I don't care very much what the rapist thinks about it. But then, what I think about it doesn't matter to the rapist, does it? Not unless I catch them, anyway.

[unbound]

Reality is a much more complicated mess than most ideologies acknowledge.

[schwank05]

I love me some dead animal, but will say that Free Range Beef, Pork and Chicken tastes 100% better than that bought in the grocery store/ Super Market. Don't get me wrong if it comes down to not eating meat and eating abused confined animals, hells yes abuse and confine the hell outta them I love Meat.

[muto]

What about those who grow their own food in their backyard.

My grandpa did. He then proceeded to shoot every squirrel and rabbit he saw so they wouldn't eat his crops. He also had about 5 traps for larger animals like skunks, raccoons, and possums.

[Deleted]

Well, preserving self-righteous morals is a delusional gamble - I guess that's news to thoose who are so fervently blinded by their own beliefs.

[Bodakane]

I'm not saying that's a terrible thing. I'm saying you're not doing it, even though you seem to think that you are. You've arbitrarily chosen to attempt to do this for some of the things you don't like, but not for other things you do like. You only "try to live by doing the least amount of harm possible" when it suits you, not when it doesn't, which makes you no different from the people who eat meat.

As for factory farming, it certainly impacts the environment a lot, but so does everything else that we do that is just as much for our own enjoyment, and all the things we do to support these luxuries; such as mining, logging, chemical production, consuming massive quantities of fossil fuels to power industrsies that produce nothing but luxuries, etc. I don't have stats on these because they seem difficult to find, but I doubt an industry that contibutes some 3% of global GDP has a very severe impact upon the environment relative to the remaining 97%.

Hmm, you're confusing "doing the least amount of harm possible" with "doing no harm at all".

Again, yes many things are terrible, but that is not a reason to not and try and improve other things. Its is possible and feasible for modern society to be vegan without it changing much of society at all. Its not feasible or possible to say, remove the resources for computers/smart phones without significantly changing society.

Why don't you ask the rapist what they think.

Then you can ask me what I think about it and hear why I don't care very much what the rapist thinks about it. But then, what I think about it doesn't matter to the rapist, does it?

That was dodge by you. I asked you a question.

[Breccia]

It seems like this research was done purely to come up with a reason to make vegans feel guilty. And it's obviously reaching.

There is a huge moral gap between "a free-range animal ran under the tractor tires, which was an unintentional result" and "this animal was born and raised for the explicit purpose of killing and eating it" and/or "a perfectly happy animal was in the woods and someone killed it for the explicit purpose of eating it".

Animals get run over on the roads all the time, but vegans still drive cars.

[Bodakane]

Well, preserving self-righteous morals is a delusional gamble - I guess that's news to thoose who are so fervently blinded by their own beliefs.

This argument is amusing to me.

You have no morals you live by? Everything and anything is fair game?

Before you answer, its obviously not, you clearly have a problem with my morals, which means you have a moral system.

[Socialhealer]

fucking scumbag vegans ruining the world!

[Deleted]

This argument is amusing to me.

You have no morals you live by? Everything and anything is fair game?

Before you answer, its obviously not, you clearly have a problem with my morals, which means you have a moral system.

I make a difference between self-righteous morals and selfless morals.

Self-righteous morals, to me, means that one is willing to blindside facts, reasonings or plain reality - in favor of self-interest. Thus, why it's a delusional gamble ; one goes out of their way to try and manufacture a truth that is simply not truth. (Example: "I save animals by being a vegetarian!")

I don't mind people doing selfish actions, as long as they can stand by their reasoning - It's a by far worse contender to claim to be righteous, AND be blind at the same time.

[Bodakane]

I make a difference between self-righteous morals and selfless morals.

Self-righteous morals, to me, means that one is willing to blindside facts, reasonings or plain reality - in favor of self-interest. Thus, why it's a delusional gamble ; one goes out of their way to try and manufacture a truth that is simply not truth. (Example: "I save animals by being a vegetarian!")

I don't mind people doing selfish actions, as long as they can stand by their reasoning - It's a by far worse contender to claim to be righteous, AND be blind at the same time.

You're literally fabricating the argument which is why you so easily can argue against it.

Vegans aren't really saying they save animals by eating vegetarian.

They are saying they are trying to do the least amount of harm possible and one of the biggest ways to do that is by eating a plant based diet. There is precious little more selfless than trying to live by doing the least amount of harm possible.

[Deleted]

You're literally fabricating the argument which is why you so easily can argue against it.

Vegans aren't really saying they save animals by eating vegetarian.

They are saying they are trying to do the least amount of harm possible and one of the biggest ways to do that is by eating a plant based diet. There is precious little more selfless than trying to live by doing the least amount of harm possible.

I am fabricating an argument, whilst you are presumably speaking for the entirety of every single Vegan?

[Bodakane]

Haha. Suck it, vegans. You are no better than anybody else..

I didn't need to read this to know that vegans are odd little snowflakes.

If you care enough about cows or pigs to deny yourself delicious food you're a nut.

I have been saying this for ages, it does not require hard researching to come to this conclusion, just basic logic.

With all the negative impacts that are caused by our human living standards, it's hard to keep an eye out.

If you are that worried go get yourself a farm, live in a forest and produce your own eco system. People complain yet use tech, have houses/flats and ironically are on the Internet.

Personally, yes we need to improve our standards of living to impact the planet and its inhabitants as little as possible but the "i am veg/vegan I protect ze world) ideology is moronic... Life is cruel.

Well, preserving self-righteous morals is a delusional gamble - I guess that's news to thoose who are so fervently blinded by their own beliefs.

fucking scumbag vegans ruining the world!

It's interesting how so many people say vegans try to be morally superior and try to shove their views down tother's throats, but the above is just the insults in the first 60 posts form meat eaters towards vegans. This isn't the meat eaters stance or moral posts, just the insults.

Who is being more preachy and in your face really?

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I am fabricating an argument, whilst you are presumably speaking for the entirety of every single Vegan?

You're dodging again.

I'm speaking on behalf of a movement, you're inventing an argument out of thin air or attributing to a whole cause what one or two people you've encountered have said.

I actually have qualifications for speaking on for a movement, what qualification do you have for fabricating an argument and attributing it to an entire cause you're not a part of?

None of that is neither here nor there.

We engaged each other in debate so why not deal with what I'm saying to you? As a vegan, I'm asking you what is wrong with the philosophy of trying to cause the least amount of harm possible?

[Theodarzna]

It seems like this research was done purely to come up with a reason to make vegans feel guilty. And it's obviously reaching.

There is a huge moral gap between "a free-range animal ran under the tractor tires, which was an unintentional result" and "this animal was born and raised for the explicit purpose of killing and eating it" and/or "a perfectly happy animal was in the woods and someone killed it for the explicit purpose of eating it".

Animals get run over on the roads all the time, but vegans still drive cars.

Having actually seen critters threshed into harvester blades, It isn't pretty.

The problem of Vegans is that they cannot follow their own logic.

[Jessicka]

You're not understanding the problem.

By taking away the predators, you've destroyed the order of things. Prey animals grow to nuisance levels which causes humans and disease to kill them. Everything from rats to deer have now been pulled form the natural cycle and cause ever expanding problems.

The direct and indirect destruction of life by factory farms and the crop growing to feed the livestock is vastly larger than straight crop growing for human consumption. Basically its double dipping and you're conveniently ignoring that much of the crop production goes to livestock.

I am understanding the problem, you're applying the US industrial cattle farming model to all global meat production methods, then turning that into a false dichotomy of vegan or bust. That's not how it works.

I understand you're ideals are based on animal welfare, and that's fine. Just don't make it an environmental argument, because it's unnecessary and far more nuanced than you want to make it out to be.

[KaziOfTheSkies]

Hrm, another thing with the "stop killing animals for food" is the part that the animals are actually fed and bred for that very purpose. If we stopped having pigs for the purpose of food the number of pigs would fall.....a LOT. Same goes for many animals we have for food, with for example sheep and cows giving us other things as well.