Seattle man changes in Women's lockers citing gender rule

[Mehrunes]

Given that his response wasn't "i identify as female", but rather "you can't stop me, it's the law!".. why don't you take a guess?

And the law is that people can use dressing rooms and the like appropriate to their gender identity, not that people can use whatever dressing room they want. Effectively, what they said was "you can't stop me, it's the law that people identifying as women can use this dressing room". And since they "couldn't stop" them, it's kinda implied they'd have to identify as female for it to be the case. Why would a trans-person need to outright say that they are trans- anyway?

[Jotaux]

From the article:

Really? Like She really cannot think of any reason at all that a normal straight male would Possibly want to go into the women's locker room where women are changing and getting undressed. She is almost as dumb as a low that requires nothing more then taking someones word.

Well I wouldn't want to change in the woman's changing room. To quote George Costanza, "I WAS IN THE POOL!"

[TheTaurenOrc]

Wait...wait...wait you mean there are more perverted men than legitimate trans cases, who are now abusing the system? I am shocked, shocked and appalled.

[Mehrunes]

Or maybe you could note that those actually identifying (actual term: presenting) as female / male are the ones this law is intended to cover, not those that yell "i identify as [gender]" while presenting as the other gender.

How do you "present" as a gender? Identification, gender identification included, is something internal. There is no requirement to somehow "present" it outside. Maybe this person was a trans-woman that does not conform to gender norms of how women should present themselves? Not just that, but you're portraying this whole "presentation" thing as something binary.

[Stockers]

fucking lefties.

[GodlyBob]

This guy is a legend ( if he was trying to prove a point). What a horribly dumb new law. dicks need to stay out of women bathrooms and changing rooms. Why risk the safety of many women and girls to protect some specific feels of the few

That sounds an aweful like like rape culture. The notion that anything with a penis is a danger to women >.>

[Thirteen]

Man entering women's toilet/shower -> pervert
Woman entering men's toilet/shower -> cute

AFAIK, in some (most/all?) places, it's not even against the rules/law for a woman to go into the men's locker room.

[Skaiz]

That sounds an aweful like like rape culture. The notion that anything with a penis is a danger to women >.>

Oh shit lol. My bad man. /s But seriously though. Having a law that can let any guy slip into a changing room that has women is asking for trouble. I'm sure for a majority of people in the western world who isn't a perverted sicko could live in a society with co-ed just about anything. But i think being realistic and looking out for the safety of others is far more important then identity feels. People abuse laws all the time. Why wouldn't a criminal abuse this one, and have some serious consequences

[BonesTheRabbit]

This is a bit interesting. I'm generally an advocate for co-ed bathrooms, but change rooms offer an interesting conundrum. Can they be partitioned in the same way as a bathroom might be? Are there technical limitations on that? For example, would it reduce the holding capacity of the facilities, during peak hours of use? After all, pool change rooms will be used by the vast majority of people entering the building, while something like a school or mall bathroom will see significantly less use. Then we need to ask, do same-sex individuals ever play the voyeur role, and simply remain unnoticed because they do not stand out among their targets? If someone is being a voyeur and remains unnoticed, does he or she present the same issue? Is there a notably disproportionate frequency here? It's all rather difficult to say, I think.

But here's what really strikes me about the subject of transgenderism: How does someone "present" themselves as a man, or woman? Wouldn't simply saying they identify be functionally sufficient? In that case, how do we differentiate between someone who is lying, from another who is sincere? Do we simply trust our intuition? What if our intuition is incorrect, and we end up placing an innocent person under unfair scrutiny? Or ignore someone acting in bad faith, and wilfully causing genuine sexual discomfort to his or her peers?

Because in one thread, we have folks arguing about dismantling gender roles. How people shouldn't be expected to follow a set of rules preordained by their sex (and I agree with this). But on the other hand, we have arguments about transgendered people dressing as their identified sex. What does it mean to dress as a man, or dress as a woman? I think we all know intuitively, but the question runs deeper than that. Because I think there's a lot of conflict surrounding this subject matter, where people aren't really sure whether to regard gendered behavior as a biological imperative, or as strictly an artificial social construct.

[Cthulhu 2020]

So is gender fluidity where people change their gender identity on a whim? I'd prefer it if people would pick a gender and stick with it, even if it doesn't match their sexual organs, but let's not have a whole bunch of random people going into opposite sex bathrooms and locker rooms JUST TO MAKE A POINT rather than because they actually identify.

Really, we just need the system that a lot of progressive countries have begun using, gender neutral bathrooms and changing rooms for anyone whose identified gender is different than their biological sex.

[TheTaurenOrc]

So is gender fluidity where people change their gender identity on a whim? I'd prefer it if people would pick a gender and stick with it, even if it doesn't match their sexual organs, but let's not have a whole bunch of random people going into opposite sex bathrooms and locker rooms JUST TO MAKE A POINT rather than because they actually identify.

Really, we just need the system that a lot of progressive countries have begun using, gender neutral bathrooms and changing rooms for anyone whose identified gender is different than their biological sex.

Looks its easy for you to say but puberty and tumblr is a confusing time.

[melodramocracy]

That's what Seattle gets for passing a really dumb rule. As usual, there's a common sense approach to this, lets see how long it takes the state to arrive at it.

[BonesTheRabbit]

Why would a trans-person need to outright say that they are trans- anyway?

This is also something of an interesting point. Could "identity checks" like this be abused to discriminate against transgendered people?

[Polyxo]

You know, I change in a men's locker room regularly, and I"m a girl. I'm a hockey player, and I change with my team, and they're fine with me there, and no one makes a big deal about it. I have a good reason to be there too. We talk about the game beforehand, and how we're going to handle our lines, and we celebrate if we did well, or laugh about it if we did poorly.

This guy, on the other hand, seems to be doing it just to make a scene. I wouldn't mind a guy changing in a women's room for a good reason,. This guy just seems to be wanting to cause trouble.

[Dendrek]

The logic should be simple: Either have 1 changing room for all, or make the decision based on whether a person has a penis or a vagina. Fuck gender identity in this case. I am ok with a male identifying as a woman, but that does not give him the right to expose himself to woman or to force them to expose themselves to him.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Looks its easy for you to say but puberty and tumblr is a confusing time.

Hey man, I'm all for gender neutral bathrooms and changing rooms. People who find gender identity confusing can continue to use their own bathroom and everyone else can have theirs.

[BonesTheRabbit]

This guy just seems to be wanting to cause trouble.

Based on what, though? What are the relevant variables we're examining? Is it as simple as the fact that he didn't say "I am a woman," and instead said "The law is changed, you can't remove me." Would changing only these statements rectify the situation in full?

[EliWallach]

You know, I change in a men's locker room regularly, and I"m a girl. I'm a hockey player, and I change with my team, and they're fine with me there, and no one makes a big deal about it. I have a good reason to be there too. We talk about the game beforehand, and how we're going to handle our lines, and we celebrate if we did well, or laugh about it if we did poorly.

This guy, on the other hand, seems to be doing it just to make a scene. I wouldn't mind a guy changing in a women's room for a good reason,. This guy just seems to be wanting to cause trouble.

Yeah, he's trying to make trouble for the idiots who wrote the law. It will be just a very short while before you find perverts who go to great lengths to make themselves look transgender (shave their bodies, grow hair, put on some makeup, etc.) just to get into these places so they can spy on women and girls when they are more vulnerable.

[Dextroden]

Based on what, though? What are the relevant variables we're examining? Is it as simple as the fact that he didn't say "I am a woman," and instead said "The law is changed, you can't remove me." Would changing only these statements rectify the situation in full?

That's a curiousity to me, too. Maybe this person said that because simply stating "I identify as a woman" wouldn't have appeased them.

[Very Tired]

Who is going to be inflicted with more emotional damage? The few transgender people who want to be able to change in the dressing rooms of the opposite sex they were born with, or everyone else who will be uncomfortable changing around someone of the opposite sex.