Attack speed beneficial champs - too strong?

[Deleted]

Hoi, anyone else feel like atk speed oriented builds and champions simply wreck the living shit out of anything that moves in the league these days?
I'm talking things like Xin, Master Yi (just played olaf against one, both full items me with a thornmail amongst other things, Yi finished the fight with 60% hp and had dealt 1,800 damage with Wuju Style alone) Kog'maw, list goes on.
These proc champions coupled with a devourer and/or a fuckton of attack speed seem to just melt any and everything, a 5k hp mundo wont last 2 seconds against a kog'maw despite his every effort to survive.

Any thoughts?

[Ergar]

Kog and Yi are both lategame champions that scale extremely well with items, so it's not really a surprise when they destroy you lategame. You have to make sure the game ends before that point, or focus the everliving shit out of them so they don't get the chance to dps.

[StrawberryZebra]

These kinds of high Champions are also extremely fragile, they're counting on being able to kill you before you kill them. A single stun is enough to destroy them, if you don't have one yourself then bring allies who do. Leona, Braum, Fiddle are all good, Vi is absolutely amazing for singling out and killing high priority targets with a dive buddy. If you find yourself against a team with huge sustained damage Champs and didn't pick any CC to shut them down you've really got no one to blame but yourselves. You gambled on being able to out damage them when you were picking and lost.

For what its worth, having a Thornmail alone isn't going to help much. You need to combine it with other armour items to get any significant benefit from it, if you're going for a single armour item you're much better off with a Deadman's Plate or a Frozen Heart. Depending on what they're building, a Randuin's Omen is also a good choice now other than for just making Yasuo cry.

[Deleted]

I feel you bro. I have the same feeling.

The problem is not the noobs who go with a full AS build. The problem are those guys who build 2 items of AS and go full tank wrecking everyone 1v5.
Only possible if they were fed though.

The only OP champion who builds full damage and is a tank is Jax. He gets armor and magic resist from AD and AP. So stupid.

[Yvaelle]

I've actually brought out Warwick Jungle a few times this weekend because of all the AS champions that ended up on my team. We had a team where it was Kog/Lulu bot lane, Zed mid, Akali top - I was last pick and took one look at that roster like "Huh, everyone wants AS - and we need someone tanky": Warwick it is.

We had another game with a Xin Zhao (mid), Gnar, and Lucian - that's a lot of on-hit builds! Worked again

In general though, I think they need to adjust some champions with AS steroids. Xin Zhao and Kogmaw are pick-or-ban right now, IMO, and it's entirely because they're unstoppable when they have high AS.

[StrawberryZebra]

In general though, I think they need to adjust some champions with AS steroids. Xin Zhao and Kogmaw are pick-or-ban right now, IMO, and it's entirely because they're unstoppable when they have high AS.

I don't think their kits are problems as such, whats pushing them over the top right now is Guinsoo's Rageblade. Nerfing the item would affect some of the other champs who are fine with it, so nerfing the champs is probably whats going to happen.
I get the impression that Riot just don't know what to do with the Rageblade, its been through several different itterations in the time I've been playing. It seems to get a complete overhaul every season. Its an item they clearly seem to want, but don't know how to make work well.

[Rotted]

Tbh, yi is lethal end game no matter what build in most cases, building pure AS early with him, is just stupid,

Kog'maw....... This lil cunt (actually one of my favourite to play since the update) needs a fine balance between attack speed and damage at early stages, but once this fucker hits that 2.0 speed, its over, your done, doesn't matter if hes been feeding until 30 minutes. Also to top it off, his passive, you know just in case you survived with a lick of his hp, Hes going to get you,

Ive made some of my best plays on him, when I know Im going to die, so I flash in to die quicker, but the other guy can't get away, so I get the kill anyway

I haven't played the maw since the rageblade update, but I'm looking forward to trying it, and maybe building one extra ad item instead of AS item.

Tempted to go for -

Shiv, Dancer, Wits end, rage blade, Botrk and lichbane, maybe sub dancer for gnasher tooth - ALL THE EXTRA DAMAGE ON HIT

[Duilliath]

That would be an absolute atrocious build.

[Yvaelle]

I've actually been toying with an on-hit Evelynn build - since she has an AS steroid too that often gets ignored (in favor of the on-hit burst of Ravage). I may need to try a Guinsoo on her - with items like Abyssal / Wits End / Nashors, she's got some serious MR tank / MR shred / on-hit going on.

At least until they nerf Guinsoo - but to be honest - while I agree Guinsoo is a big part of the problem - Kogmaw (and probably Xin Zhao) need nerfs entirely distinct, above and beyond, a Guinsoo nerf. New kogmaw is pick or ban imo.

[StrawberryZebra]

Nerfing Xin and Kog seperately is better than nerfing them along with Guinsoo's. Nerfing them together with the item has a good chance of going too far and leaving them in a state where they're overshadowed by better picks. There are enough Champs who can leverage Guinsoo's to take them to a point where they're strong without being too powerful for any nerfs to have some collateral damage. Champs like Kayle or Irelia, where its a good option but not the only option to build.

I think the item itself could do with some changes, its got identity issues at the moment. There are very few champs who can take advantage of all the stats it has to offer so for those who don't scale well with AP its got some economic disadvantages built in by design. The ones who do take advantage of everything get reigned in quickly because an item like this drives their power upwards to obscene levels like it has with Kog right now and Jax previously. I'd really like Riot to go back to the drawing board with it and make it an item with a clear purpose or group of champions it fits well on then seeing where the outliers are without it before making sweeping reactionary nerfs to everything.

[Yvaelle]

I think there are issues in general with champions which use both AP and AD - from a design perspective. I think we need to address that - but it won't be this season.

Take Kog'maw for example, he's an AD power-house because of his absurd attack speed. He's also one of the best AP threats in the game because of his AP scaling on everything, and high damage, long range, AOE, pokes/snares. If they want him to be an ADC, that's fine - give him all AD ratios - and then he can be properly balanced. We can all collectively mourn the loss of AP Kog'maw mid, but we get to move on with our lives.

The same is true for perennial Ezreal problems - people think it's his kit, or his mobility, but that's never really been the issue. The issue is that he's simultaneously a capable ADC, and a capable AP Mage - and that - frankly - is bullshit. Give him all AD ratios, and then he can be properly balanced - but when you are trying to balance both AD and AP ratios - he turns everything into a problem.

Kayle is a much better example of what they should be like - she's not perfect by any means - but while she likes AS, she scales essentially entirely off AP/AS. This is a niche that Ezreal / Kog could also fit into - and be perfectly fine. You can buff their ratios then if needed - and crucially - you can predict the results of those buffed ratios. As it stands, champions that double dip on AP/AD, find new exploits every other patch.

Eve is another example - every now and then she flips between AP and AD builds - based on the strength/weakness of AP items, rather than her actual design. That means everytime you design an AP item, you have think, "This item is rebalancing Eve, and we need to predict and assess those changes to her" - and frankly - they don't do that (for Eve, or anyone else with both AP/AD scaling).

So every now and then they make an on-hit AD item designed for the more bruisery champions - and suddenly Eve's building AD on-hit this season. Then they buff an item like Luden's Echo / Runic Echoes - and she's AP again. Did they consider the effect on her when they make those changes? Nope - often because they think of her as existing within the other (current) paradigm, but each change alters her identity. The same is true for AP/AD Ezreal cycles, and Kog'maw, and even Kayle to some extent.

If we want these champions to be balanced consistently, they need a consistent identity - you can be AD/AS, or AP/AS, or AD/Crit, or AP/Crit, or AP/Movement, or AD/Movement, or AD/Armor, or AP/Armor - but you shouldn't be AD/AP, and you definitely shouldn't be AD/AP/AS (as all four of the above are).

[StrawberryZebra]

Champs having both AD and AP scaling isn't as bad as you make it out, you can only realistically itemise for one build at once. You've also got to decide which before the game starts for the appropriate runes and masteries, being able to switch in-game on the fly as the situation demands is unrealistic. Problems occour when you've got a Champ with high scalings with both AD and AP and access to items that improve both. Either those items have to be made deliberately weaker than standard items to make up double dipping on the stats, which ends up with Champs who would benefit from it skipping it for focused single stat items, or the champions power has to come mostly from their kit to make up for their bad item choices which just leads to them being overpowered when something comes along that they can abuse.

I think we're seeing a case of the latter with Guinsoo's. Its an item which is perhaps overbudget for its cost and the champs who can use all of its stats well, like Kog, are getting more milage out of it than was probably intended.

Ezreal falls into the first group, Champs who can build AD or AP but not both. I don't really think its too much of a problem, he's far from the only one. If the items were in place to allow him to go for a hybrid AD and AP build and maintain the same endgame values for both as he does currently then he'd be an absolute terror. As it stands he does pretty much the same thing with either build. Shifting him, and others like him, to one stat or the other wouldn't affect their game play too much so its almost certainly not a high priority for Riot at the moment. It'll happen gradually as Riot update more Champs without them needing to make a coordinated effort to fix it specifically.

[LuciferTheIV]

If you haven't already, you gota try nautilus with devour jungle item.

it just goes to show how strong att speed in the jungle can be on any champion for the most part.

[StrawberryZebra]

I saw someone building Attack Speed Naut with Devourer last week. He attacked so fast the DoT from his shield never had time to tick before it was refreshed, and was squishy enough that Zed could just auto attack him to death. It was a horrible idea, I wouldn't encourage anyone to do it.

Naut also farms too slow to stack devourer at a reasonable enough rate, he's much better suited to being a ganking jungler. At the absolute minimum he's going to force flashes from any lane he gets onto cleanly.

[Ichifails]

If you haven't already, you gota try nautilus with devour jungle item.

it just goes to show how strong att speed in the jungle can be on any champion for the most part.

But it's garbage for so many reasons...

It's one of those things that only works up to a certain point because it requires people being garbage. It's damn Nautilus jungle with Devourer what the hell is he going to do.

Invade his jungle, ward it, protect scuttles, protect drakes, have some hard CC and he'll be worthless. Make use of the fact that he scales late game and snowball lanes early and all that jazz.

Do most people do that? No because they are shit at this game, failing at the most basic things that you should grasp within hours of first touching the game.

For example warding better (Credit to Keyoy for his video showing this). I don't get it how a lot of people see wards and their mind doesn't instantly jump to "how does the vision system work" and then you see area revealed by a ward is influenced by walls (something logical) so then the next step is how can you maximize the area a ward reveals in a certain part of the map. You jump into a custom game, get a Sighstone and through trial and error you know the best places for wards... That's something that should naturally happen within 1-2 hours of first starting the game but guess how many people do it correctly... spoiler alert, even most pro players fuck this up and in S4 proper warding(position and timing) from Korean support/jungle combos completely fucked western teams.

[Duronos]

But it's garbage for so many reasons...

It's one of those things that only works up to a certain point because it requires people being garbage. It's damn Nautilus jungle with Devourer what the hell is he going to do.

Invade his jungle, ward it, protect scuttles, protect drakes, have some hard CC and he'll be worthless. Make use of the fact that he scales late game and snowball lanes early and all that jazz.

Do most people do that? No because they are shit at this game, failing at the most basic things that you should grasp within hours of first touching the game.

For example warding better (Credit to Keyoy for his video showing this). I don't get it how a lot of people see wards and their mind doesn't instantly jump to "how does the vision system work" and then you see area revealed by a ward is influenced by walls (something logical) so then the next step is how can you maximize the area a ward reveals in a certain part of the map. You jump into a custom game, get a Sighstone and through trial and error you know the best places for wards... That's something that should naturally happen within 1-2 hours of first starting the game but guess how many people do it correctly... spoiler alert, even most pro players fuck this up and in S4 proper warding(position and timing) from Korean support/jungle combos completely fucked western teams.

Yes I still remember Samsung White in the Finals at Worlds taking a gigantic dump on Royal because of their superior ward game.

[Reluctant]

I did do devourer Volibear for some fun. You can really rip people appart.

Devourer + titanic hydra and the rest full tank.

[Duilliath]

Volibear actually scales with AS to some extent. Nautilus only does up to 1 attack / sec, after that it hurts his damage.