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  1. #41
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Razaron View Post
    They either both cheated and Garrosh got wtfpwned or they both didn't cheat and Garrosh got wtfpwned.

    Garrosh was wearing armour, just because he had no "shirt" doesn't negate the leather/plate.

    Please don't just copy and paste from wowpedia. Those were the ancient Mak'gora rules, if you look at Garrosh vs Thrall first Mak'gora you'll see that there was no blessing, Garrosh was in full-plate and Thrall was using his spells willy nilly. There have been other Mak'gora's since and spells we're used.

    End of the day, Garrosh got the chair.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I'll just leave this here, a post I made ages ago.

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post35220401



    - - - Updated - - -

    oh and why not, add even more evidence.

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post35183951
    'evidence' guys slash and zapp themselves non stop, while on nagrand cinematic it takes one lightning to kill. it is obvious that comic and in game events were made just for show off, nothing more. and armours? clearly they did ot bother to make new ones for the fight
    Quote Originally Posted by Seezer View Post
    You sound like someone who's in a political argument lol. "Fiwthy Chweater THrall". Thrall doesn't actually exist. Not sure if you know that. And please. This was an obvious fuck up on Blizzard's part. Thrall didn't just turn real one day and say "I'm gonna cheat!". Blizz didn't pay attention. And the whole "Mak'gora" thing is so stupid anyway. Warriors can use ALL of their abilities, while every other class can only use attack? Now that's cheating. And also, like someone else pointed out, in a previous "Mak'gora" with garrosh and thrall, they were both in full armor. So.

    I swear, people get their panties is such a twist over fictional characters in video games. It would be an interesting psycho experiment.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I'm glad to know that you don't respect a bunch of pixels. I can't say that I've ever respected a bunch of pixels either! WOOT!
    Because he is a filthy cheater. You speak about 'warrior skills', lore and game mechanics are two different things. Thrall was a gladiator since his early days, a warrior.

  2. #42
    I really don't want to be drawn into what I think of as a silly argument but...oh sod it I am taking the bait.

    How can anyone count Thrall's use of elemental powers as a 'weapon'? If he was a Mage, would the thrown shards of ice counted as a weapon? Bloody hell this is so daft and uber nerdy

  3. #43
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Hivey View Post
    I really don't want to be drawn into what I think of as a silly argument but...oh sod it I am taking the bait.

    How can anyone count Thrall's use of elemental powers as a 'weapon'? If he was a Mage, would the thrown shards of ice counted as a weapon? Bloody hell this is so daft and uber nerdy
    Elemental power comes well, from elements, sentient and sapient beings who decide whether to give their power ot not. It is not Thralls innate power, but element's good will. Also MakGora is an orcish ritual, so one can imagine that it was done by warriors. I imagine that shamans rarely participated if at all, and then they were forced to fight like a warrior. Orcs like warrioring. Nothing prevents mage from being an excellent warrior. Mak'Gora with the use of magic allowed(except for blessing) would be rather pointless, it is a duel of honour, there is none is burning someone to death with a flamthrowery hand when the opponent is using a sword. Even two mages would most probably resort to melee duel. Orcish honour and such things

  4. #44
    The elements are apart of the environment. If you throw an opponent to the ground are you cheating for using he ground to hit them?

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Seezer View Post
    You sound like someone who's in a political argument lol. "Fiwthy Chweater THrall". Thrall doesn't actually exist. Not sure if you know that. And please. This was an obvious fuck up on Blizzard's part. Thrall didn't just turn real one day and say "I'm gonna cheat!". Blizz didn't pay attention. And the whole "Mak'gora" thing is so stupid anyway. Warriors can use ALL of their abilities, while every other class can only use attack? Now that's cheating. And also, like someone else pointed out, in a previous "Mak'gora" with garrosh and thrall, they were both in full armor. So.

    I swear, people get their panties is such a twist over fictional characters in video games. It would be an interesting psycho experiment.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I'm glad to know that you don't respect a bunch of pixels. I can't say that I've ever respected a bunch of pixels either! WOOT!
    Why can a fictional character not be worthy of respect or admiration?

  6. #46
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Jotaux View Post
    The elements are apart of the environment. If you throw an opponent to the ground are you cheating for using he ground to hit them?
    Then I imagine Thrall's body is quite an independent planet with volcanos growing out from his teats and lightning in the arse.

  7. #47
    Deleted
    The funny thing here is: We fans have probably spent much more thoughts on blizzard's depictions on what a mok'gora is supposed to be and what not.
    Blizz has been considerably slacking in terms of story writing and plot development from the moment they started with WoW. I dunno if it is the switch from RTS to MMORPG, but basicall WoW was picking up what we left of with WCIII, and the best parts of the game were, so far:
    1) Classic. Why? Because we were presented with a huge world to explore what we formerly only knew in a much more limited setting, or through written word. There was so much to explore in already existing lore, the game was like a huge treassure trove, everything was new.
    2) TBC. The introductions to this was sloppy. The dark portal randomly opened again because Illidan felt like it, so we came to kick his but. You can already see a lack of imagination on plot development here, but we got to see a new world, what was left of draenor. We could yet again explore stuff from WCIII, outland/draenor, and meet characters from WCII and III. Blizz made a big mistake there though; they killed all of those names off; Vash, Kael'Thas and Illidan.
    They are trying to remedy the last of these in legion, but it is yet again sloppily pulled of. Illidan, without a doubt, was killed in the black temple. Suddenly making shit up like him being entrapped in a soul stone, and then resurrected by AU Gul'dan; sloppy.
    3.) Much like tbc, we explored the tracks of WC III. This time, we cought up to the climax of the predecessor. From the moment WoW came out, we knew it would come to this showdown with the lk. Everything was fine up to this.

    Then blizzard's lack of creativity became apparent. Halion was a sloppy introduction of the black dragonflight/deathwing/cataclysm. We hadn't seen DW in WCIII, so it wouldn't have hurt to see more "traces" of him in the old world, or something. We at least got to meet his children though. That's why cataclysm was the start of the decent, but not yet as bad as the following x-packs. It mainly spoke to the older audience of WCII as far as lore went (DW appeared in WCII, beyond the dark portal), but it was at least a name of notice.

    Did blizz learn from that sloppiness? Nope. MoP was totally random content-wise. Just like there was no particular trigger for DW to suddenly awaken, Alliance ships just happen to make it into Pandaria after 10k years no one was able to. The ironic thing is that blizz was capable of making pandaria a closed-in-itself world with decent lore. However, we couldn't really connect it from aterothian's PoV. There was no connection to the previous x-packs at all.

    The whole Garrosh/Thrall/Horder-Leadership/Conflict with alliance thing looks like it could've been planned for a while, since Garrosh appeared first in tbc, then gained importance in wotlk (was a prick towards alliance/honorable-diplomatic conduct), then became leader in cata continueing that douche-baggery and finally starting all out war in MoP.

    This is also the big part that's playing into this very discussion: Garrosh's character development + overal story development.
    Blizz either screwed up in proper character development, or deliberately designed thrall/garrosh to be fools for the sake of story development.
    Personally, I see a big part of both.

    When thrall visited nagrand and showed garrosh the feat of his father, he was very one-sided in his depiction. He didn't add a: "However, it is true that your father was the first to drink mannoroth's blood, and then later repeated that mistake by, knowingly what he'd do, drink it again."
    Grommash redeemed himself, but let that be a lesson to you; Conduct yourself only with honor. Dont trust into the strenght of unclean forces no matter what, and live proudly."
    It kinda comes of as thrall being a grom fanboy, not seeing his flaws. That's why he held his son in such high esteem, unwilling to see his flaws. He ignored all his advisers telling him it's a bad idea. Through his one-sided side of grom's story, he might as well have said: "You're awesome. You've only moped around for years, but even if you go aggro, kill innocents, succumb to dark magic and piss of your allies, you're still awesome because you are grom's frickin' son!".

    Maybe blizz did plan to make thrall an idiot from as early as tbc, I dont know. But through him being abandoned by the doomhammer (which is essentially a thor new generation rip-off, very creative blizz), they basically admit that thrall cheated. I still kinda doubt though that blizz planned that with their cinematic, and instead responded to lore-nuts raging about the "unfair" mak'gora.

    Apparently the terms of a mak'gora can vary, depending on what the two contrahents agree on. So yes, they could've agreed on thrall being allowed to use magic, as he as a shaman would've been disadvantaged.
    Thrall is a warrior as well though. He started out as a freakin gladiator slave, freed his captured people, and learned shamanism later-on. For him to resort to magic in a traditional warrior-duel is basically breaking with his warrior's pride. I cannot imagine garrosh having agreed on that.
    Garrosh during the duel even said: You never were a true warrior. Well, he's right, isn't he?

    Thrall is more like a combat rogue/swashbuckler, fighting with what's at hand


    For me it comes down to this: Why didn't thrall simply execute garrosh?
    Why grant a dishonorable mass murderer a honorable fight?
    Why start a warrior duel when you're the weaker warrior?
    Why start a duel that traditionally is held for leadership, when neither was leader, nor fighting for leadership? Wouldn't it have been Vol'jin to fight garrosh?

    Honestly, it would've been better storywriting if vol'jin would've been there as witness, and procured that "arrow from the darkness" that he promised garrosh in cataclysm.
    He would've shot it when he noticed thrall wouldn't win this, and taken the dishonor upon himself to safe his boyscout sworn brother, and at the same time take revenge for his other brother cairne, who died by betrayal all the same. Would've been soooooo fitting.

    I dunno, has this cinematic been planned out beforehand to explain the doomhammer leaving him, or did it just happen to fall into place nicely afterwards. I tend to the latter, really.

    Anyways, rather than wether thrall cheated or not (personally for me that's a yes, with blizz's confirmation of it), I'd ask: Why mak'gora in the first place?
    Have him beheaded, smash his skull with DH or electrocute him from the get-go would've made more sense.
    Last edited by mmoc593e7db3da; 2016-02-25 at 01:59 PM.

  8. #48
    Deleted
    to call Garrosh 'dishonorable' is blasphemy.

  9. #49
    Garrosh was dishonourable. He also wasn't a God, so it couldn't be Blasphemy even if that wasn't true.
    Now though, he's just dead.

  10. #50
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    Garrosh was dishonourable. He also wasn't a God, so it couldn't be Blasphemy even if that wasn't true.
    Now though, he's just dead.
    He was not. Blasphemy. best Warchief of the New Horde

  11. #51
    Deleted
    Tell you what, Garrosh is my favorite character. I really love his devellopment from BC to WoD.

    I won't criticize Blizzard choice to put him "on the chair" (the one who said that in that topic really made me laugh). But I would have loved to see him crushed by us, "the good side", and have nothing left. And that's my feeling after War Crimes. He would have been such a beast wondering what to do anymore. Yes I really love when characters have to change their thinkings for good or bad...

    Anyway... All hail the True Horde!

  12. #52
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Asrandor View Post
    Tell you what, Garrosh is my favorite character. I really love his devellopment from BC to WoD.

    I won't criticize Blizzard choice to put him "on the chair" (the one who said that in that topic really made me laugh). But I would have loved to see him crushed by us, "the good side", and have nothing left. And that's my feeling after War Crimes. He would have been such a beast wondering what to do anymore. Yes I really love when characters have to change their thinkings for good or bad...

    Anyway... All hail the True Horde!
    Hail the True Horde!

  13. #53
    LittleJin banned again, shame this topic couldn't of gone on longer.

  14. #54
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    If Gary lead the horde during wc3 and not thrall, we'd all be dead by now.

  15. #55
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Razaron View Post
    LittleJin banned again, shame this topic couldn't of gone on longer.
    My ban has been lifted. LittleJin proved innocent. May his light never waver
    Quote Originally Posted by Cronoo View Post
    If Gary lead the horde during wc3 and not thrall, we'd all be dead by now.
    I agree. All trolls would be dead by now. Orcs would live happy, maybe even ally themselves with some spine grown troll tribe.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by High-Chief Greathoof View Post
    So... Yeah. Thrall cheated in two ways. First, Thrall used body armor (his Doomplate) whereas Garrosh did not even wear a shirt. Second, Garrosh had zero witnesses from his new Warsong Clan. HOWEVER, there is nothing in the rules about using special powers (like Thrall's Shamanism), but from the rule-set described above in two different novels that are canon... Thrall DID cheat!
    Both Garrosh and Thrall wore armor. The proper way to fight a Mak'gora is to fight in a loincloth. Garrosh was wearing an armored belt and leather pants as well as plate boots and gauntlets. Secondly, its unclear whether or not Thrall had witnesses too. There aren't any shown in scene, we just know they are there before and after. So it's up in the air.

    Ultimately, whether Thrall cheated is kinda irrelevant to his own honor because the thing that sullied that is his abuse of the elements.

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleJin View Post
    He did not.
    Oh no, he definitely did... just that Thrall was dishonorable in the act of doing so.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    I don't think he cheated, but I do think it was sort of unjust. In that cutscene where Garrosh said "I am your fault" he was right.
    And at least a small faction of Blizzard agree with either me or LittleJin, because the Elements have abandoned Thrall since he struck down Garrosh (hence the passing of the Doomhammer). Why would they do that, if they approved of his actions? :P
    Yes it was ALL Thralls fault.

    "Let me be Warchief Thrall"
    "No"
    "Let me be Warchief Thrall, you're so weak!"
    "No"
    "The horde would suck without me, Thrall"
    "No"
    "Let me be Warchief Thrall"
    "Fine, you know what? Here, you're the new Warchief"
    "Dammit Thrall, it's your fault I ruined everything"

    Everything Garrosh did from TBC to WoD was the actions of a grown man-child.

    As a side note though, I really would hope they make Shaman tier robes later on. The last shaman-y set I feel we've had is the Dark Shaman ones.
    Mistweaver Tax noun 1. The effect of both high mana costs, and lack of utility, coupled with requiring specific talent combinations to compete with other healers, while still not being able to compete with toolkits said healers have baseline in any competitive area.

  18. #58
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    Both Garrosh and Thrall wore armor. The proper way to fight a Mak'gora is to fight in a loincloth. Garrosh was wearing an armored belt and leather pants as well as plate boots and gauntlets. Secondly, its unclear whether or not Thrall had witnesses too. There aren't any shown in scene, we just know they are there before and after. So it's up in the air.

    Ultimately, whether Thrall cheated is kinda irrelevant to his own honor because the thing that sullied that is his abuse of the elements.



    Oh no, he definitely did... just that Thrall was dishonorable in the act of doing so.
    He did not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    Yes it was ALL Thralls fault.

    "Let me be Warchief Thrall"
    "No"
    "Let me be Warchief Thrall, you're so weak!"
    "No"
    "The horde would suck without me, Thrall"
    "No"
    "Let me be Warchief Thrall"
    "Fine, you know what? Here, you're the new Warchief"
    "Dammit Thrall, it's your fault I ruined everything"

    Everything Garrosh did from TBC to WoD was the actions of a grown man-child.

    As a side note though, I really would hope they make Shaman tier robes later on. The last shaman-y set I feel we've had is the Dark Shaman ones.
    Garrosh did not want to be a Warchief. And when he became one, he got a thrast can in shape of orgrimmar, starving and thirsty orcs dependable on night elf supplies. Depressed and demoralised by the rule of Thrall. So yes, it is just as he said, he was left out to gather his(Thrall's) pieces. Oh and he did it and he did it great. If not for trolls breaking blood oath, horde would prosper.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleJin View Post
    Garrosh did not want to be a Warchief. And when he became one, he got a thrast can in shape of orgrimmar, starving and thirsty orcs dependable on night elf supplies. Depressed and demoralised by the rule of Thrall. So yes, it is just as he said, he was left out to gather his(Thrall's) pieces. Oh and he did it and he did it great. If not for trolls breaking blood oath, horde would prosper.
    You must've missed all of WoTLK where he demanded, constantly Thrall give him the mantle of warchief, how he constantly went against Saurfang's advisement and sent people on suicide missions simply because didn't like them. And with Ulduar/Tournament questioned absolutely everything Thrall did and how he'd make a better Warchief. Now you're right that the Garrosh of TBC didn't want to be Warchief because he was afraid of becoming what his father did. Then by the end of MoP he's drinking the blood of Old Gods and becoming exactly like his father in every respect.

    This just shows how inconsistent the writers are with Garrosh, but there is one aspect to his personality which has never changed. He will always resort to the most childish behavior, and he was frightening merely because he was an extremely powerful jacked orc with the brain of an 8yr old who has yet to develop a concept of how to behave.
    Mistweaver Tax noun 1. The effect of both high mana costs, and lack of utility, coupled with requiring specific talent combinations to compete with other healers, while still not being able to compete with toolkits said healers have baseline in any competitive area.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    I don't think he cheated, but I do think it was sort of unjust. In that cutscene where Garrosh said "I am your fault" he was right.
    And at least a small faction of Blizzard agree with either me or LittleJin, because the Elements have abandoned Thrall since he struck down Garrosh (hence the passing of the Doomhammer). Why would they do that, if they approved of his actions? :P
    In classic Warcraft fashion, Thrall was correcting that mistake. The touchy-feely elementals don't always get their way in a world of warcraft. They might not always be right either. It's definitely a controversy. The superhero dylemma, batman especially. Let the extremely dangeous bad guy live and almost assuredly kill more people, or end it right there and then?
    Last edited by BananaHandsB; 2016-02-29 at 04:48 PM.

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