(MASSIVE LEGION SPOILERS) Looks like we're losing some warriors.

[Toppy]

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...6#post38938686


So, Nazgrim for now, who knows for the other three.

Warriors going DK. Fantastic.

EDIT:

http://legion.wowhead.com/quest=42536/regicide
http://legion.wowhead.com/quest=4253...ruined-kingdom

Thoras Trollbane, the warrior king of the warrior nation, also a rider.

[Valech]

We already lost that warrior. He is dead. Good if they bring him back. He was a loyal guy. We need those. DK or not.

Also the title of this thread is just over the top.Massive usually refers to gamechanging. Informations about Flexible raids, mythic mode, challenge modes, changes to pvp equipment... that´s massive. not some lore twist.
Some warriors implies more then one. Just adds an unnecessairy assumption to the topic. Losing warriors could also mean warriors from the community - which is clickbait. And since Nazgrim is dead already I´d argue we already lost him.

[Archimtiros]

We already lost that warrior. He is dead. Good if they bring him back. He was a loyal guy. We need those. DK or not.

Also the title of this thread is just over the top.Massive usually refers to gamechanging. Informations about Flexible raids, mythic mode, challenge modes, changes to pvp equipment... that´s massive. not some lore twist.
Some warriors implies more then one. Just adds an unnecessairy assumption to the topic. Losing warriors could also mean warriors from the community - which is clickbait. And since Nazgrim is dead already I´d argue we already lost him.

I think he means the fact that Nazgrim, dead or not, being made into a Death Knight undermines his life as a Warrior. It also reinforces the idea of Death Knights being > Warriors. If they really wanted to bring him back to "life" they could have just made him some kind of crazy undead Orc Warrior. Or considering that Valhalla already has it's own form of ascended life-after-death, it wouldn't be a big stretch of imaginative writing to make him go there instead.

Only somewhat related, story wise, I'm not sure how I feel about bringing characters back to life as Death Knights, because that's not really how they've ever been protrayed. As far as we know, there are no "new" Death Knights, they are all either undead scourge, or the result of soul-stealing magic (most, if not all, by the direct action of the Lich King).

The only Death Knights that were actually raised from the dead were the original from WC2, but even they are a bit more complicated. Their bodies were dead Knights of Stormwind, but their souls came from somewhere else entirely: they were the spirits of Gul'dan's warlock cabal. Now they too were dead by Doomhammers hand, but we can assume their souls survived/were called back due to crazy warlock ritual magic, and indeed these original Death Knights were more Warlock than Knight to begin with.

It'll be interesting how the story rationalizes the creation of a "new" death knight, especially considering that Nazgrim has, at this point, been dead awhile; although part of me wonders if they'll even bother.

[Toppy]

I think he means the fact that Nazgrim, dead or not, being made into a Death Knight undermines his life as a Warrior. It also reinforces the idea of Death Knights being > Warriors. If they really wanted to bring him back to "life" they could have just made him some kind of crazy undead Orc Warrior. Or considering that Valhalla already has it's own form of ascended life-after-death, it wouldn't be a big stretch of imaginative writing to make him go there instead.

Only somewhat related, story wise, I'm not sure how I feel about bringing characters back to life as Death Knights, because that's not really how they've ever been protrayed. As far as we know, there are no "new" Death Knights, they are all either undead scourge, or the result of soul-stealing magic (most, if not all, by the direct action of the Lich King).

The only Death Knights that were actually raised from the dead were the original from WC2, but even they are a bit more complicated. Their bodies were dead Knights of Stormwind, but their souls came from somewhere else entirely: they were the spirits of Gul'dan's warlock cabal. Now they too were dead by Doomhammers hand, but we can assume their souls survived/were called back due to crazy warlock ritual magic, and indeed these original Death Knights were more Warlock than Knight to begin with.

It'll be interesting how the story rationalizes the creation of a "new" death knight, especially considering that Nazgrim has, at this point, been dead awhile; although part of me wonders if they'll even bother.

DK do it with a book Mograine has, he's been researching undeath since WotLK, and now we have a LK again. Looks like we have canon new DK.

I wonder. What if those warrior ghosts we datamined early into the alpha were future DK? They certainly arent in our hall.

[Katie45]

I think he means the fact that Nazgrim, dead or not, being made into a Death Knight undermines his life as a Warrior. It also reinforces the idea of Death Knights being > Warriors. If they really wanted to bring him back to "life" they could have just made him some kind of crazy undead Orc Warrior. Or considering that Valhalla already has it's own form of ascended life-after-death, it wouldn't be a big stretch of imaginative writing to make him go there instead.

Only somewhat related, story wise, I'm not sure how I feel about bringing characters back to life as Death Knights, because that's not really how they've ever been protrayed. As far as we know, there are no "new" Death Knights, they are all either undead scourge, or the result of soul-stealing magic (most, if not all, by the direct action of the Lich King).

The only Death Knights that were actually raised from the dead were the original from WC2, but even they are a bit more complicated. Their bodies were dead Knights of Stormwind, but their souls came from somewhere else entirely: they were the spirits of Gul'dan's warlock cabal. Now they too were dead by Doomhammers hand, but we can assume their souls survived/were called back due to crazy warlock ritual magic, and indeed these original Death Knights were more Warlock than Knight to begin with.

It'll be interesting how the story rationalizes the creation of a "new" death knight, especially considering that Nazgrim has, at this point, been dead awhile; although part of me wonders if they'll even bother.

The demons are a big deal, we had to sacrifice a bunch of ancients to stop them before, and blow up big part of the land

[Archimtiros]

DK do it with a book Mograine has, he's been researching undeath since WotLK, and now we have a LK again. Looks like we have canon new DK.

I wonder. What if those warrior ghosts we datamined early into the alpha were future DK? They certainly arent in our hall.

Maybe, but I doubt it, if they were DK they probably wouldn't be ghosts. It's unlikely the game would ask you to go around to every last NPC and personally raise them into undeath, rather than just do it once and say "and all these guys too!".

As for Mograine, there's some basic framework, but it's still light on actual explanation. Strictly speaking, raising people into Undeath isn't an exclusive power. The Lich King did it, Dreadlords do it, Kel'Thuzzad (and presumably any archlich of comparative power) could do it, Val'kyr do it, but Death Knight's have always been thought to require a bit more effort. It's heavily implied that every Death Knight is directly created by the Lich King (with the interesting exception of the 4 HM, which are hinted at being created by KT, though Arthas may have raised them and KT merely adopted the institution).

Maybe Mograine's powers have increased to that point? Maybe some outside form of power (ancient voodoo tomes, whatever) do it for him? Maybe Bolvar will get off his ass and help rebuild the Ebon Blade (actually that would be the simpliest solution, just recover Nazgrim's body and bring it to Bolvar, who raises him in the presence of Mograine and co.)?

I don't really care either way, I just want to see how the story ends up explaining it. Many sources of lore in the game, and devs, sadly contradict themselves because they never explain things fully from the get go.

- - - Updated - - -

The demons are a big deal, we had to sacrifice a bunch of ancients to stop them before, and blow up big part of the land

I'm... not sure what that has to do with what I wrote? I didn't even mention Demons, perhaps you could elaborate.

[Caargon]

Pretty sure it'll be Bolvar wiggling his fingers and making it happen. DK artifact quests seem to suggest that the Ebon Blade is cool working for the lich king again, for some reason. They also all but declare the PC death knight has passed Mograine both in strength and status, so I don't see him being directly responsible for the raising.

[High-Chief Greathoof]

No where does it say the other three Horsemen HAVE to be Warriors... Just add some more salt onto your plate of pure salt...

[Toppy]

No where does it say the other three Horsemen HAVE to be Warriors... Just add some more salt onto your plate of pure salt...

It's going to likely be other dead heroes who wear plate and wield weapons. So either warriors or paladins more than likely.

Don't see why for example they'd raise a rogue to be a rider. Or a shaman. Maybe a hunter.

[Archimtiros]

It's going to likely be other dead heroes who wear plate and wield weapons. So either warriors or paladins more than likely.

Don't see why for example they'd raise a rogue to be a rider. Or a shaman. Maybe a hunter.

Tirion, duh!

[Murlocbait]

From the bits of quest stuff found so far, looks like you work with Mograine to find books written by KT regarding the creation of the Four Horsemen, with Nazgrim as your first target. Part of me thinks it's a very cool idea rich with DK lore. The other part of me thinks its pretty shitty when so many of us were originally speculating on characters like Naz being in our cloud cuckoo land Valhalla, and now the first dead warrior to be show up isn't in our "warrior afterlife" bullshit palace, but instead is being raised as a DK. Salty? Sure, I've been salty since WoD beta shit all over warriors and Blizz has done nothing to undo the damage of that. Seeing a warrior hero who was one of our best turned into a DK is pretty insulting in an expac that is supposed to be all about the class lore. Just further proof they simply don't have any warrior lore, and don't really care to create any either (at least not anything that makes a lick of sense or has story coherence).

[Archimtiros]

Pretty sure it'll be Bolvar wiggling his fingers and making it happen. DK artifact quests seem to suggest that the Ebon Blade is cool working for the lich king again, for some reason. They also all but declare the PC death knight has passed Mograine both in strength and status, so I don't see him being directly responsible for the raising.

Yup, which is why I suggested Bolvar.

I really hate the idea of the player supplanting Mograine either, though this is a reoccurring problem in WoW since WoD. The more it happens, the less important every NPC in the world becomes, which in turn makes the game world a little less special. No longer is the player a part of the world, instead they're the super hero that can beat anyone/do anything. It's becoming D3: The Nephalem is greater than everyone, and the answer to every threat is find the Nephalem!. They really need more quest/story lines where the player loses and start building depth to the NPC's again.

[Headayke]

"All that is left is to find the fourth horseman"

"You... already have one"

Tirion:

BOLVAR!

[Deleted]

With a bit of luck they will ask for his permission to raise him before they do, could throw the noble sacrifice spin on it then. Better to be a DK figthing demons then a ghost in valhalla watching kinda deal.

I mean with the Ebon Hold guys constantly talking about themelves being cursed, it seems reasonable they wouldn't inflict that on someone else without consent. Especially if they work with bolvar who can actually do that without condemning him to hell. (i always had a problem with the forsaken giving their new recruits a "choice" of serving sylvanas or "being released into death", when by now it's heavily implied that the fate for merely being undead is hell, so some choice is that.)

[Zenny]

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...6#post38938686


So, Nazgrim for now, who knows for the other three.

Warriors going DK. Fantastic.

Why yes, Warriors called back to become one of the four Horsemen become Death Knights. This doesn't really undermine Warriors.

[Sengralt]

Not losing any warriors IMO.

[Kirbydude65]

I love how this reinforces how much of a shit show this whole valhalla class hall is turning out to be.

[Toppy]

I love how this reinforces how much of a shit show this whole valhalla class hall is turning out to be.

Yeah that part bothered me too. We are getting a warrior afterlife, and yet one of the most iconic warriors, whose boss fight was pretty much "Lets make a whole fight based around being a suped up warrior", is being turned into a DK. As Arch said, it undermines Naz's warrior past. Now he'll be defined by his time as the new horsemen of war.

[Surtruk]

They really need more quest/story lines where the player loses and start building depth to the NPC's again.

That's... The basis of the expansion?

This isn't WoD with the NPCs noting that we're wrecking the Iron Horde at every turn. Everything is pointing toward us not only losing at the Broken Shore, but losing very badly. The expansion starts with us on the back foot. The reason the Ebon Blade is even going forward with raising fallen heroes is because we're losing.

I understand the bad humor in literally having a warrior turn into a DK, but this is exactly what you're asking for; We're losing the fight against the Legion and these are the lengths we are willing to go to stop them. How will Nazgrim react to being raised as a death knight? How will he react in being denied his honorable death? How will he react to everything that happened since his death? How will he react to having been raised to fight the Legion, compared to just taking over the world as all other Scourge shit has gone?

[Toppy]

That's... The basis of the expansion?

This isn't WoD with the NPCs noting that we're wrecking the Iron Horde at every turn. Everything is pointing toward us not only losing at the Broken Shore, but losing very badly. The expansion starts with us on the back foot. The reason the Ebon Blade is even going forward with raising fallen heroes is because we're losing.

I understand the bad humor in literally having a warrior turn into a DK, but this is exactly what you're asking for; We're losing the fight against the Legion and these are the lengths we are willing to go to stop them. How will Nazgrim react to being raised as a death knight? How will he react in being denied his honorable death? How will he react to everything that happened since his death? How will he react to having been raised to fight the Legion, compared to just taking over the world as all other Scourge shit has gone?

Naw, the basis of the expansion is our factions and important NPC's are failing and we the players are the only one who can save everyone.

And as far as we know at this point, we (well our factions which we are saying screw you to) lose, and then we go back and start dominating the island.