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  1. #1

    Health pools over expansions

    Please, if anyone remembers. Just need some info for a catalogue of mine (long story to tell) - what was the average health pool of a raider over expansions?
    Say, a heroic\mythic geared-lvl raider in BC had, say 10,000 hp. Tanks had, say, 20,000.
    If it is not a problem, and if a difference is really high, say, in WotLK at T7 raiders had 25,000, at T10 they had 30,000 and so on.
    I'd be really grateful if someone remembers.
    And yes, what is average hp now, at HFC? I'm not playing now, so don't really know.
    And how much is it going to be in Legion raids?

  2. #2
    Bloodsail Admiral TrollShaman's Avatar
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    I recall heroic-geared tanks in Dragon soul could have 200k HP at most. Heroic-geared non-tanks in SoO had 500-600k HP, while tanks hovered around 800k too I think. Sadly that's as far as I'll remember in health pools.

    I looked at the Legion alpha videos and non-tanks have hit 1 million HP O_O

    Over the years HP seemed to go up exponentially per expansion. Damage had to go up too to be close in relation to HP of players and npcs alike which is why stats were squished the first time. Same thing is probably going to happen if we get an expansion past Legion because if anything the exponential hp increase is a lot higher in less time (100k hp by the end of MoP post squish to 1m in legion which is just one expansion)

  3. #3
    Stood in the Fire Actarius's Avatar
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    I haven't really put a lot of thought into this, it just came to my mind, but how would people feel if health went the same way as mana?

    Make hp static by level, and give tanks like double hp. For legion, 500k for dps/heals, and 1m for tanks. (Just arbitrary numbers of course). Stamina could then be dropped since it's fairly irrelevant, just comes with gear. Or they could make it a secondary stat like spirit is now and stamina offers faster resource regen, lower cooldowns, or something to that effect.

    Not sure how good the thought is.... Hopefully others could weigh in.

    Personally as a tank myself (guardian & protection paladin) I wouldn't really mind a static health pool for balance purposes.

  4. #4
    Classic casters finished Naxxramas with around 4,000. In Molten core you might have had 2500. Tanks had around 11,000 in bis unflasked. You needed at least 9500 to tank Patchwerk I think.

    Burning Crusade my mage had 6,000 in Karazhan and 8,000 by the end of Sunwell.

    Wrath my mage had 16,000 in Naxxramas and 24,000 by the end of Icecrown.

    Cataclysm my mage had 120,000 or so in Blackwing Descent. 140,000 raid buffed by the end of Firelands. Let's pretend dragon soul doesn't exist.

    Pandaria around 400,000 in Heart of Fear, nearly 700k by the end of Siege of Orgrimmar I think.


    In Highmaul we sat around 300,000. Now in Hellfire I sit at 520,000 raid buffed.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Actarius View Post
    I haven't really put a lot of thought into this, it just came to my mind, but how would people feel if health went the same way as mana?

    Make hp static by level, and give tanks like double hp. For legion, 500k for dps/heals, and 1m for tanks. (Just arbitrary numbers of course). Stamina could then be dropped since it's fairly irrelevant, just comes with gear. Or they could make it a secondary stat like spirit is now and stamina offers faster resource regen, lower cooldowns, or something to that effect.

    Not sure how good the thought is.... Hopefully others could weigh in.

    Personally as a tank myself (guardian & protection paladin) I wouldn't really mind a static health pool for balance purposes.
    Health is not really an issue at all from a balancing standpoint. It's only one component of the EHP equation and if you're relying on high health to tank you still need high heals.
    If you are particularly bold, you could use a Shiny Ditto. Do keep in mind though, this will infuriate your opponents due to Ditto's beauty. Please do not use Shiny Ditto. You have been warned.

  6. #6
    Thanks a lot everyone! You helped me greatly! A bit surprised to see such numbers...Imo Wrath had most sensible numbers, further are just far too bloated. Expected WoD to squish hp back to 30k, but well....Hope they will do a better squish again after Legion.
    Anyway, thanks again!

  7. #7
    Deleted
    My warlock currently has 602k. I can boost it to 819k with the voidfiend's ability (GoSac) and also have another 20% shield on Soul Leech. Giving me effective HP of nearly 1 million. On warlock, a non tank class.

    I played since cata and my hunter had:

    lv 85: 140k or 163k with endurance spec (+15% stamina)
    lv 90: 400k in T14, 660k in T16 heroic
    lv100: 300k in Highmaul, 460k in HF

    The stat squish did not affect player hit points but that's understandable because they removed resilience. In T16 you had 80% resilience (77 base + 3 from trinket setbonus) giving you +400% effective HP in PVP. So if my character had 660k hp, in pvp combat it was actually 3,3 million.

    In legion we'll have the highest hit point numbers to date, with every DPS having over 1 million even in basic gear. You can predict DPS having 1,5-2 million throughout the xpac in raid gear, and tanks 3-5 million (esp druids will have huge numbers)

  8. #8
    In hindsight
    -Squish should have been bigger
    -They should have squished again (might have to every xpac?)
    -The big one... stop scaling gear up 3-4x from the beginning to end of a two tier expansion

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Vedni View Post
    -They should have squished again (might have to every xpac?)
    Blizz has stated their plan was to squish every other xpac - so a squish after legion is already planned for and you can assume, barring a change in philosophy, for that trend to continue.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Vedni View Post
    In hindsight

    -They should have squished again (might have to every xpac?)
    Makes my head hurt that people don't understand why the squish was needed. Player health is irrelevant, player damage is irrelevant. They didn't squish because "numbers are big LOLOLOL MAKE EM SMALLER OLOLOLOL"

    The issue was boss health reaching over 2 billion and the engine couldn't handle it, that's why the Garrosh fight had to be split in 3 phases. Player health is nowhere near 2 billion so it doesn't matter.

    Archimonde has ~450 million health in Mythic so we're fine for Legion and then probably another squish.
    Last edited by Ichifails; 2016-02-26 at 08:24 PM.

  11. #11
    Deleted
    If anything health could stand to scale faster so that healing doesn't get progressively faster as the expansion progresses. Health bars start out big enough that it takes a bit of time to top someone but with every tier HPS increases by more than health until at the end of the expansion you're basically filling health bars in a single cast.

  12. #12
    Deleted
    Archimonde has ~450 million health in Mythic so we're fine for Legion and then probably another squish.
    We are not fine for legion, bosses on normal max level dungeons in alpha already have over 30 mln hp. This 10 x more than WoD. If blizzard wont change it, we will break 2 billions in Sarumar.

  13. #13
    They'll just do a siege of orgrimmar and make every mythic boss heal itself to full four times (garrosh) or have a million adds and take reduced damage (siegecrafter) or split the boss into nine bosses (paragons).

  14. #14
    Deleted
    They'll just do a siege of orgrimmar and make every mythic boss heal itself to full four times (garrosh) or have a million adds and take reduced damage (siegecrafter) or split the boss into nine bosses (paragons)
    So much immersion. They should just fix numbers, is not to late.

  15. #15
    So what? It's only a lot of zeroes.

    Does it really matter if Boss/Player has 100k, 100,000k or 100,000,000k HP? As long as DPS/HPS numbers scale proportionally the actual number is completely irrelevant.

    With the new scaling system that they introduce in Legion the numbers on client side are probably only cosmetic anyway. I guess they calculate with percentages / lower numbers internally on server side and just put some zeroes (10^n) behind that number for clients.
    #MakeBlizzardGreatAgain

  16. #16
    They'll just do a siege of orgrimmar and make every mythic boss heal itself to full four times (garrosh) or have a million adds and take reduced damage (siegecrafter) or split the boss into nine bosses (paragons).
    Garrosh healed due to 25M Heroic. During MoP Blizzard's servers ran on 32-bit code (this may be 64-bit now, unsure though). This means that the largest possible individual number the server can handle is 2,147,483,647 (~2.1 Billion). If you look through a 25-Man Heroic Garrosh kill and add up the total damage he takes it's somewhere in the ballpark of 3.6 Billion. Well above 2.1 Billion. I'm pretty sure that's right but it's been awhile since I dealt with binary math.

    As far as player HP is concerned, Blizzard made the decision to give player health a significant boost in Cata in order to slow down PvP kill times. It scaled from there.

  17. #17
    Deleted
    A better fix is re-coding the health to be stored in 64 bit signed integers instead of 32 bit.
    I don't know why they didn't do that and prefer to go with periodic number squishes instead.
    And fixing that is easy. They already did this with money in Cataclysm. Up and including WOTLK the gold cap was 214.7k, or 2,147 billion copper (money is stored as copper value in game, there's no "gold" there). They redesigned that part of code to be 64-bit, which now allows much larger gold caps. 999k is just arbitrary number, they can set it to anything up to ~922 trillion gold now.

    64-bit signed integer has a cap of about 9.2 x 10^18 (quintillion). That's enough breathing room for 10 years or more.
    And big numbers aren't anything disturbing. The SI prefixes are there for a reason. Diablo III doesn't care about big numbers, it's S5 now and we're regularly seeing bosses with 50+ trillion health there.

    You don't say that Archimonde has 450,000,000 health. You say that he has 450M health. Will it matter when he would have 450G or 450T health? No, it doesn't matter.
    Same for player HP. 10k, 60k, 300k, 1.3M, 18M, 80M health - it's all represented in a tidy notation. No one will ever say that his character has 14,337,529 health. They'll say 14M or 14.3M. To boldly go beyond convinient notations you need to reach numbers larger than a googolplex. That's a number of 10^10^100. 1 followed by 10^100 zero's. Impossible to write normally, as the number of digits far exceeds the number of atoms in observeable universe. SI units allow to represent numbers up to 10^24. Cookie clicker, one of more popular "casual gamer" games involves dealing with 100-digit numbers on a regular basis. Big numbers ain't the problem, coding limitations is.
    Last edited by mmocd8b7f80d95; 2016-02-27 at 08:30 AM.

  18. #18
    Deleted
    this may be 64-bit now, unsure though
    No, it's still 32 bit. And they wont change it in legion.

    They redesigned that part of code to be 64-bit
    Are you sure? Maybye the code is [number of coppers] + [number of silvers] + [number of gold]. No reason to conver everything into number of coppers.
    Last edited by mmoc6e1f4e7317; 2016-02-27 at 01:06 PM.

  19. #19
    IIRC well geared tanks had 10k HP in BC. In WOTLK I tanked and I remember the 50k HP mark being a big benchmark, at least for Warriors(I believe Druids could get more, can't remember exactly).

    I prefer the smaller numbers. It felt like a much bigger deal. I remember inviting a random pug to our weekend Kara run during BC and marveling at his 2k DPS.

  20. #20
    Herald of the Titans Dartz1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ichifails View Post
    Makes my head hurt that people don't understand why the squish was needed. Player health is irrelevant, player damage is irrelevant. They didn't squish because "numbers are big LOLOLOL MAKE EM SMALLER OLOLOLOL"

    The issue was boss health reaching over 2 billion and the engine couldn't handle it, that's why the Garrosh fight had to be split in 3 phases. Player health is nowhere near 2 billion so it doesn't matter.

    Archimonde has ~450 million health in Mythic so we're fine for Legion and then probably another squish.
    the only reason they do stat squishes is cause peoples computers couldnt handle seeing higher than over 9000 power level readings couldnt resist urge to say it someone was gonna eventually
    You can't take what ya can't see... *rolls d20* You rolled a natural 20* The skill of stealth is successful.

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