1. #1

    Feedback on the Alpha Forums

    Hi guys!

    I posted talent feedback and some general feedback on Chaos Strike on the Alpha forums. The post is below. I didn't get time to write about Artifact traits yet due to having to go to a Seminar, but will post it in a reply to the same post when I get home.

    Copy Pasta:

    Havoc has been through a lot of changes since the first build I was able to attend. It has gone from a 2 button class to a fully fledged rotation that can change significantly, depending on your talent choices.

    That being said, there are still issues that needs to be addressed. I will focus on what is not working, or need tweaks instead of breaking down the entire class in this post.

    Do note this is all from my subjective point of view and not everyone will agree with me.

    Talents and Artifact traits:

    Blind Fury is a good talent on paper that synergizes well with Anguish of the Deciever, but it still has a major problem regarding raiding at that is the fact that you are rooted when casting it. Adding 50% more cast time, obviusly increases the damage, but it also makes you a sitting duck for 50% longer. Haste alleviates this problem somewhat, but it still requires planning ahead. On bosses like Spellblade Alluriel, not being able to move for that long can mean you get pushed out and frozen during the Frost phase. With Eye Beam being one of our best aoe abilities, it feels very counterintuitive to not cast it during this phase, since AOE is very much needed to get the adds down fast.

    Demon Blades was datamined to just add shadow damage to our auto attacks and a chance of generating Fury. THis has not been confrimed yet, but it is clear that the current itiration of the talent does note work. The class slows down immensivly with this auto attack based gameplay, and it reminscent of the Vanilla warrior where you sat and swirled your thumbs til you got rage.

    Proposed change is to add shadow damage to autoattacks and have a chance to generate 3-5 Fury on auto attack.

    Demon Reborn is so inferior to the other 2 talents after First Blood got changed into a good talent choice. There is no reason to take this talent at all in its current form. There are some very situational uses to get double blur, or maybe a double Eye Beam, but the activation time of Metamorphis makes soemthing that could have been a cool burst combo in certain situations, not work at all.

    Proposed changes that was discussed on the class forums on MMO-Champion was that it could reduce the cooldown on Metamorphis slighly per use of X ability or per fury spent, meaning it could be a way to increase your dps. The other 2 talents have clear uses and are flat dps increases, leaving Demon Reborn with no incentive to take.

    Netherwalk and Desperate Instincts seems bugged in the current build for me personally. I still take damage during Netherwalk and Desperate Instincts does not seem to proc. That said Soul Rending with 100% leach in Metamorphis is such a strong talent, both for survivability as well as its synergy with Demonic in the 110 row.

    Nemesis was not the best talent in its previous iteration where it could be kept up on 1 type of mob the entire time, and after it got nerfed, it got even worse. There were some uses of the talent in dungeons before the nerf, but right now it is by far the worst of the 3 talents. Momentum gives you high rewards if you play correctly and Bloodlet is safe and constant damage and the only type of dot we have, meaning it is very strong as a dps talent from a raiding AND pvp point of view since there is no garuantee you can stick to your target 100% of the time.

    Chaos Cleave only Cleaves on the first Chaos Strike hit still, meaning it buffs Chaos Strike dmg by 50%. Chaos Strike in itsself is our best ability damage wise still, but would still like the talent to work as intended!

    Master of the Glaive has clear situational uses.

    Unleashed power is the strongest of the 3 due to the Synergy with Demonic.

    Fel Barrage is still not working in building charges, but the ability itslef when you do have charges seem to work. Looking forward to trying this out when it works as intended.

    Last I will discuss Chaos Strike.

    This ability is so strong and has so much synergy, it is almost always the best ability to cast apart from AoE situations. It also triggers Inner Demons, which is arguably our best Artifact trait. It also makes Critical Strike our best secondary stat by such a degree that we are almost at a level where it's on par with Agility. It also gets buffed by our Mastery which makes it hit even harder.

    That being said, it is the only ability we have that makes us able to compete with other dps specs at the moment.

    Possible change is to nerf the Chaos Strike damage somewhat and bake it in to other skills, or make more of our abilities be Chaos damage, which indirectly buffs the damage they do.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Artifact!

    Artifact feedback as of build 21414

    A few changes were made to the artifact tree in this build, although it was not noted in the patch notes. I will discuss the traits from the current build though, as the post is written after it was deployed.

    As with most Artifact trees, the Twinblades of the Deciever have 3 keystones and the rest are passives to existing skills. Rage of the illidari is a passive effect, added on to out initial trait which is an active.

    With the removal of the link between Feast on the Souls and Chaos vision, Anguish is 11 points in. (I do not count the initial trait as we get that with the weapon.)

    Inner Demons is also 11 points

    Rage of the Illidari is 8 points in.

    With the Artifact layout as it is in the current build it is pretty clear that the path that gives the most damage output is the left side of the tree. Feast on the Souls reduce the cooldown of Chaos Nova and Eye Beam, which again gives more uptime on the Demonic Talent (if that is your choice), and Critical Chaos gives even more damage to one of our best, if not THE best, ability damage wise.

    There are also traits that give better fury regen through the chance of spawning soul fragments using Chaos Nova, which again benefits the Demonic Talent, andDeciever's Fury which gives a handy amount of fury while soloing and espescially leveling.

    The other side of the tree is more tailored to raiding. Unleashed Demons gives a full minute off the cooldown of Metamorphis,, as well as reduced damage from Magic attacks, and a higher maximum fury bar.

    With that being said, I will go over the few problems I have with the Artifact tree as it stands.

    Keystones

    Fury of the Illidari is a pretty annoying spell to use in its current iteration. On top of that, its animation isn't very good either. Its current iteration is a bad version of Ravager. Its rooted to the place where you stood when you cast the ability, meaning if movement is required, the spell is wasted. It is in the same problem zone as Defile for Death Knights in WoD.

    Proposed changes is to change the animation to reflect the chaos damage it deals, or depending on the change that might be implemented, it might look even different. Proposed changes are either:

    A: Make it place-able and upgrade the graphics with fel flames, making it on par with Ravager.
    B: Make it follow you around and/or turning it into the Chakram shield the DH has in D3, without the defensive bonuses.
    C: Change it completely.

    Inner Demons being tied to Chaos Strike furthers the emphasis on Chaos Strike (and Critical strike as our undisputed best secondary stat) being our best ability for Single targer. Although that might be the design, it creates a very narrow playstyle, and although (talent dependant) we can change the talent tree around to weave in more abilities into your rotation, it is still a part of an underlying problem in spell selection.

    Rage of the Illidari suffers due to how Fury of the Illidari works. If you for some reason have to move, the damage is lost, or very small due to being tied to the damage the FotI did. This keystone will be the worst out of all 3 without a change to FotI.

    Anguish of the Deciever is our strongest Keystone in terms of the damage it adds. This being if you set the keystones as stand alone up against each other. (RotI can do more damage, but it is dependant on amount of mobs, and explosion + no movement)
    It also synergies well with Blind Fury, giving it even more stacks.

    The problem it does have, is that you want Blind Fury to get the most out of the ability, but that roots you for a longer period of time. Artifact Trait alone is strong, but to tget the maximized effect out of it, you need to pick a talent that makes you vulnerable.

    Conclusion

    As a conclusion I believe that in relative strength the Keystones are: ID > Anguish > RotI. This is mostly based on the QoL issues that the other talents have.

    This also means that in terms of building your artifact power, you are most likely served (in the current build, to go to Inner Demons, Swing up to Anguish and then finish off towards RotI in the end.

    Last but not least:

    Looking at how the Alpha is going, it seems we will be able to finish up our artifact tree before the first tier is finished. Apart from the Artifact slots, how is the plan to increase the power of the Artifact?


    Had some feedback regarding Demon Blades and my porblems with it on the Alpha forums. Posting it here for context


    Posted by user Piwi:

    I don't aggree here.
    Demon Blades is a choice, not a must. A change in gameplay if you prefer a slower not that spammy gameplay and thus it deffinately has its place.
    You might not like it, fine take another talent, but talens should offer options and this one does.

    I tried Demon blades and I really like it.
    If you couple it with Fel Blade you have a really nice gameplay that doesn't require you to spam every global cooldown.

    Edit:

    More from Piwi:

    Of course I understand your point of not having complete control but as long as it is a choice it has its place.

    My setup was Demon Blade, Fel Blade, Bloodlet and Master of Glaives.
    This gave me Fel Blade for a proc and Throw Glaives for times where I can't use Chaos Strike or Fel Blade.

    Worked really nice for me and one bonus was that it didn't feel punishing to not use either demon bite for fury or chaos strike for damage.

    My rotation was a rather easy priority system (Not counting eyebeam, meta and other talents or procs):
    Fel Blade > Chaos strike > Throw Glaives


    Sangomah:

    How much downtime do you have? As in not having fury for abilities? Did you use the fel Rush talent for extra fury gen?

    Whenever i tried demon blades i sit and wait for something to do all the time


    The downtimes depend alot on RNG of course, if you get a lot of procs you won't have any.
    But the idea behind it is to not fill every global cooldown and sometimes have phases where you pool "rage", which you can use on alot of chaos strikes then.

    I'd say just try it out.
    Last edited by Sangomah; 2016-04-07 at 01:56 PM.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Sangomah View Post
    snip
    Thanks so much Sangomah. This is fantastic. Hopefully will get some traction. I agree almost completely with every point.

    Anxious to see a post from you regarding the lackluster artifact traits (and broken ones, looking at you Rage of the Illidari).

    "Fell deeds awake! Now for wrath; now for ruin, and the red dawn!"

  3. #3
    You mind writing down the traits you have an issue with Baelroc? Easier to write them all down at the same time. Others can chime in if they want

  4. #4
    First and foremost, Rage of the Illidari is flat broken. And the fact that FotI is a targeted spell and another "Gold Dragon" trait tied to it, you can completely waste your artifact "cool factor" and on use ability with a tank that decides he wants to be 10 yards to the left for whatever reason.

    On top of that the animation for Fury is extremely lackluster, almost borderline bad. Comparing this to some other classes artifacts that actual augement and sometimes change their rotational abilities, its very "meh." 2 suggestions:

    1- Make Fury of the Illidari a fel vortex that is always anchored to the Demon Hunter (kick ass animation would be nice)
    2- Make Rain from Above good and replace it. Rain from Above (the pvp talent) is an extremely fun ability with alot of Demon Hunter flavor (Taken almost directly from the Illidan encounter itself).

    Also, as you mentioned before, our damage is sooo reliant on Chaos Strike, traits like Warglaives of Chaos and Critical Chaos just add the the inflation. Not to mention the fact that the rotation feels clunky before Critical Chaos. (I don't have Alpha ::sadface:: but this is taken from numerous people's expressed opinions on how differently the spec plays once it gets its artifact traits)

    Anguish is cool, however it suffers from being tied to Eye Beam, another ability that can be punishing if something out of your control happens.

    Ill try to add more later but need to step out for a while.

    "Fell deeds awake! Now for wrath; now for ruin, and the red dawn!"

  5. #5
    Deleted
    Personally, I think Chaos strike has to be strong enough relative to the other spells we have in order for us to have a realistic chance of keeping up in single target. Our toolkit is designed in such a way that the strength of our single target is limited by the amount of multi target damage we deal.
    Currently our AoE capabilities are very good and our single target is somewhat lacking, now say we want to increase our single target capabilities. Chaos Strike is the only ability they can work with that doesn't also buff our AoE damage, the only exception to this being felblade.
    I personally would like to see the demonic playstyle remain and be our primary multi-target choice, and instead give felblade and maybe Demon Blades some love, along with a nice single target burn CD (Chaos Blades)

  6. #6
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Baelroc View Post
    First and foremost, Rage of the Illidari is flat broken. And the fact that FotI is a targeted spell and another "Gold Dragon" trait tied to it, you can completely waste your artifact "cool factor" and on use ability with a tank that decides he wants to be 10 yards to the left for whatever reason.

    On top of that the animation for Fury is extremely lackluster, almost borderline bad. Comparing this to some other classes artifacts that actual augement and sometimes change their rotational abilities, its very "meh." 2 suggestions:

    1- Make Fury of the Illidari a fel vortex that is always anchored to the Demon Hunter (kick ass animation would be nice)
    2- Make Rain from Above good and replace it. Rain from Above (the pvp talent) is an extremely fun ability with alot of Demon Hunter flavor (Taken almost directly from the Illidan encounter itself).
    I actually like the basis of the animation for FOTI, though I agree it looks rather lackluster - I think even adding in some of the coloured wake effects that we've been seeing, perhaps with a flame theme would make it look a lot better without having to redo the entire animation (although I do like your ideas - especially moving in Rain From Above into the PvE demon hunter, reminds me of Illidans ability from BT).

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by TJx View Post
    Personally, I think Chaos strike has to be strong enough relative to the other spells we have in order for us to have a realistic chance of keeping up in single target. Our toolkit is designed in such a way that the strength of our single target is limited by the amount of multi target damage we deal.
    Currently our AoE capabilities are very good and our single target is somewhat lacking, now say we want to increase our single target capabilities. Chaos Strike is the only ability they can work with that doesn't also buff our AoE damage, the only exception to this being felblade.
    I personally would like to see the demonic playstyle remain and be our primary multi-target choice, and instead give felblade and maybe Demon Blades some love, along with a nice single target burn CD (Chaos Blades)
    I will give some feedback regarding this, crediting you guys in the process:

    That said, our single target right now is Chaos Strike/annhilation and Fel Eruption and to some degree Blade Dance with the first blood talent. It crit on Spellblade Aluriel for 690k on Monday, so the damage is there. My suggestion was to reduce the damage on Chaos strike and buff the other abilities slighly to make up for it, cause right now Chaos Strike > anything (espescially with Inner Demons

    I think Demon Reborn should be changed by Chaos Cleave, and Demon Reborn should be replaced by Rain from above on a longer cooldown. Something like 60-90 Seconds. Its something that is pretty core, but strong enough to be put down later in the tree. Might overshadow the other talents though.

    Another possibility is getting rid of the Rage of the Illidari and place the Death from Above there, OR put something like Warglaives of Azzinoth where you put your blades down and summon 2 Fel Elementals to fight for x amount of seconds?

    Any thoughts?

  8. #8
    Mind posting a link to the thread Sang? Cant seem to find it on the alpha forums.

    "Fell deeds awake! Now for wrath; now for ruin, and the red dawn!"

  9. #9
    @Sangomah

    by changed by i'm guessing you meant switched with? Which.. eh, I don't think CC can compete in that tier, at all. DB & Prepared are too strong.

    RfA is, from what I've seen, fairly boring as well - you spam a single ability AND are rooted. A cool GCD-based animation of leaping up and crashing down I could get behind with, though.

    I'd rather not with pets / guardians / whatever they call them now - FoTI being locked is bad enough, can you imagine putting down elementals and moving away as well? X_X

  10. #10
    @Baelroc

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/17610913465

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanyali View Post
    @Sangomah

    by changed by i'm guessing you meant switched with? Which.. eh, I don't think CC can compete in that tier, at all. DB & Prepared are too strong.

    RfA is, from what I've seen, fairly boring as well - you spam a single ability AND are rooted. A cool GCD-based animation of leaping up and crashing down I could get behind with, though.

    I'd rather not with pets / guardians / whatever they call them now - FoTI being locked is bad enough, can you imagine putting down elementals and moving away as well? X_X
    One 110 talents in a previous build was to call forth Illidari. Pet AI is pretty weird at times so I see what you are getting at.
    The Pets would be able to move with you as they are tied to your Artifact Weapons and you can't drop them. That was the idea in my head at least. Worded it weirdly though!

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanyali View Post
    @Sangomah

    by changed by i'm guessing you meant switched with? Which.. eh, I don't think CC can compete in that tier, at all. DB & Prepared are too strong.

    RfA is, from what I've seen, fairly boring as well - you spam a single ability AND are rooted. A cool GCD-based animation of leaping up and crashing down I could get behind with, though.

    I'd rather not with pets / guardians / whatever they call them now - FoTI being locked is bad enough, can you imagine putting down elementals and moving away as well? X_X
    Yep that's why I said "make it good." I definitely was thinking something along your lines of just a couple GCDs in the air throwing fel bolts or something.

    It's just sad how bad the ability is right now not to mention a pvp talent that is on the same row as Imprison almost garanteeing it will never be used. Something with such potential would be awesome as an artifact ability.

    - - - Updated - - -

    And by a couple GCDs I literally mean 1 or 2. Rage of the Illidari could then be the ability to charge back down and do an aoe damage on landfall of the damage you dealt during Rain from Above

    "Fell deeds awake! Now for wrath; now for ruin, and the red dawn!"

  12. #12
    IN all fairness, Fury of the Illidari should be like a fel version of Ravager, cause lets face it. Its a worse version of ravager.

    YOu either
    A: Make it placeable and upgrade the graphics with fel flames
    B: Make it follow you around, turning it into the Chakram shield the DHhas in D3
    C: Change it completely.

  13. #13
    OT but, I'd advise if you want actual discussion on official threads, to just grab a US starter account, make a level 1 and post on their forums. It's far more active, organised (and arguably more frequently read).

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Sangomah View Post
    IN all fairness, Fury of the Illidari should be like a fel version of Ravager, cause lets face it. Its a worse version of ravager.

    YOu either
    A: Make it placeable and upgrade the graphics with fel flames
    B: Make it follow you around, turning it into the Chakram shield the DHhas in D3
    C: Change it completely.
    Agreed. And I think we can mostly all agree A is the worst option.

    Also thanks for the link! Will be following.

    "Fell deeds awake! Now for wrath; now for ruin, and the red dawn!"

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by wordup View Post
    OT but, I'd advise if you want actual discussion on official threads, to just grab a US starter account, make a level 1 and post on their forums. It's far more active, organised (and arguably more frequently read).
    blizz doesn't like the EU

    I think i checked the forums once to see what EU was saying about DH and left sad and disappointed

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sangomah View Post
    IN all fairness, Fury of the Illidari should be like a fel version of Ravager, cause lets face it. Its a worse version of ravager.

    YOu either
    A: Make it placeable and upgrade the graphics with fel flames
    B: Make it follow you around, turning it into the Chakram shield the DHhas in D3
    C: Change it completely.
    I'd prefer B, myself. I like the ability (wish it didn't not interact with CB, but hey, maybe that's a bug), don't like that it's "rooted".

  16. #16
    If I could do that and post on the Alpha forums I would, but there is no reason to do it otherwise. I get your point though @Vanyali

    - - - Updated - - -

    Edited OP with Artifact feedback as of the build deployed April 6th.

  17. #17
    Deleted
    Do you post this in the wow alpha feedback forum ? I cant find your post for sticky or like etc. Can you pls give a link to it

  18. #18

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