Classic World of Warcraft Discussion [Megathread]

[ActiveTroll]

Kazzak isn't a raid boss. Kazzak is an outdoor boss with 2 mechanics designed to give people catch up loot.

So yeah, vids of people killing an actual boss plz.

This is the whole problem though, catch up loot. Shit is an abomination. LFR, catch up loot, easy PvP gear. All mistakes in the game. It's a huge mistake that I can literally start a character right now, level to 100 in a single day, gear fully 700 ilvl in 4 hours of PvP, I kid you not literally 4 hours, fully 700. Without doing anything more than clicking purple stumps in ashran. I just dinged 100, skipped ALL dungeon content, skipped ALL raid content except mythic. I do one LFR and the game is now beaten for me. This is a broken man, that said, I'm not advocating legacy servers, that's a stupid idea. But the game needs to be harder, it needs to take more work to get gear. Nothing has meaning, because everything is too easy and fast to get. Why would a new player stick around when they essentially beat the game in a day?

[RickJamesLich]

It's possible overgearing the instance with talents designed for the game 11 years in the future after significant nerfs to it's damage output and health? Is this really surprising to you?


Jesus you're stupid.

Ugh oh, I made him angry lol. But seriously - the whole idea is that the changes to the game have made everything insanely easy. Even if you think it was easy before, at the present almost none of the game provides any sort of challenge. The same does not hold true for vanilla.

[kary]

Ugh oh, I made him angry lol. But seriously - the whole idea is that the changes to the game have made everything insanely easy. Even if you think it was easy before, at the present almost none of the game provides any sort of challenge. The same does not hold true for vanilla.

I'm not angry, you just lack basic comprehension skills.

someone with level 100 tuned talents

Does that mean that the person is 100, or that the talents are tuned for a level 100 person? I'm curious.

[Deleted]

But as I also tried pointing out, with too much separation you then have a company with their own WoW clone. They would then have 2 competing games within their own company. If it stays WoW then as a company they have to implement anything new from one to the other (graphical/hardware/software updates), anything new added to Legacy then also has to be added to "retail." Otherwise, it's not even WoW anymore, it just comes back to being a WoW clone.

Well even if they do end up competing, they will get all their subs back they had initially (probably half) and may the best WoW win, the one on the wrong path will just be closed down, but even if the player base is split down the middle, it's still profit. You could say it's a spin off or anew branch dedicated to old ways, people would love it. There is no more official lore anymore, they can make spin-offs.

[kary]

This is the whole problem though, catch up loot. Shit is an abomination. LFR, catch up loot, easy PvP gear. All mistakes in the game. It's a huge mistake that I can literally start a character right now, level to 100 in a single day, gear fully 700 ilvl in 4 hours of PvP, I kid you not literally 4 hours, fully 700. Without doing anything more than clicking purple stumps in ashran. I just dinged 100, skipped ALL dungeon content, skipped ALL raid content except mythic. I do one LFR and the game is now beaten for me. This is a broken man, that said, I'm not advocating legacy servers, that's a stupid idea. But the game needs to be harder, it needs to take more work to get gear. Nothing has meaning, because everything is too easy and fast to get. Why would a new player stick around when they essentially beat the game in a day?

I totally agree. I liked linear progression, but people cried about having to do old content too much, and not being able to catch up when everyone else was further ahead and it got changed. Blame sunwell patch.

[RickJamesLich]

No, its not. Run mythic 5 mans without getting a carry from a 720 dps. Its not faceroll.

lawl, I guess I won't ever find out since I unsubbed from WoD a long time ago. I did some of that challenge mode shit back in MoP and it was not hard though. Essentially it was the same thing as regular dungeons, you run around and aoe everything, except you have to be smart with tank survival CD's.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm not angry, you just lack basic comprehension skills.



Does that mean that the person is 100, or that the talents are tuned for a level 100 person? I'm curious.

You don't get level 100 talents at 60, so they person isn't tuned for level 100 talents. If you want to imply that new talent system has made things significantly easier then I'd agree though. That's sort of the point of my argument though. If you still don't understand this let me know.

[ActiveTroll]

No, its not. Run mythic 5 mans without getting a carry from a 720 dps. Its not faceroll.

Actually it is pretty faceroll. not to mention, this whole multiple difficulties thing is a stupid system. Ulduar had the perfect difficulty scaling system, they should copy that going forward. LFR should be removed, mythic removed, just one difficulty, with hard mode activation. LFR is an abomination, especially for new players. New players will not stick around when they have beaten LFR (essentially the game). Frankly I think LFD should also be removed. Players should need to socialize to form groups and then find the actual dungeon entrance.

WoW is dying because it's too easy to solo everything in the game with no social interaction, and generally speaking that's actually the easier way to get the loot, so not only is solo play possible, but encouraged. Only mythic is out of reach for the solo player, and when a new player has beaten LFR and has gear that trumps all content they can reasonably do, they won't keep playing. They made no social ties, why would they continue?

I know it was frustrating forming groups, but it was also necessary. People just don't understand basic human psychology. With no risk or effort, there is no reward.

[RickJamesLich]

Actually it is pretty faceroll. not to mention, this whole multiple difficulties thing is a stupid system. Ulduar had the perfect difficulty scaling system, they should copy that going forward. LFR should be removed, mythic removed, just one difficulty, with hard mode activation. LFR is an abomination, especially for new players. New players will not stick around when they have beaten LFR (essentially the game). Frankly I think LFD should also be removed. Players should need to socialize to form groups and then find the actual dungeon entrance.

WoW is dying because it's too easy to solo everything in the game with no social interaction, and generally speaking that's actually the easier way to get the loot, so not only is solo play possible, but encouraged. Only mythic is out of reach for the solo player, and when a new player has beaten LFR and has gear that trumps all content they can reasonably do, they won't keep playing. They made no social ties, why would they continue?

I know it was frustrating forming groups, but it was also necessary. People just don't understand basic human psychology. With no risk or effort, there is no reward.

Speaking of no risk or effort.... players can pretty much just hang out in the garrisons and make money with no sort of effort short of just clicking on a mission table, or clicking on herbs. It's so easy that the herbs all spawn next to each other lol. Ditto with flying mounts.... should you ever feel the need to leave the garrison (which doesn't happen often), you can just stay flying in the air without any sort of risk of death. I think stuff like that just isn't good form for an MMO. It takes out any sense of urgency. I guess it is convenient, but when you make mechanics such as Npc's that are able to kill you entirely null, it makes things so much less interesting.

[ActiveTroll]

I totally agree. I liked linear progression, but people cried about having to do old content too much, and not being able to catch up when everyone else was further ahead and it got changed. Blame sunwell patch.

They shouldn't have listened to those complainers, people always complain for more convenience. But people don't know what they really want. It's like that guys said "you think you want it, but you don't" He was 100% right and it applies to so much in the game. When you get given a digital reward, and you didn't work for it, you will be happy for about 1 second, and that's it. There is a fine line to maintain in a game between too hard (where people will just go, fuck that, not worth my time) and too easy where people go (already got everything, already beat everything, boring)

- - - Updated - - -

Speaking of no risk or effort.... players can pretty much just hang out in the garrisons and make money with no sort of effort short of just clicking on a mission table, or clicking on herbs. It's so easy that the herbs all spawn next to each other lol. Ditto with flying mounts.... should you ever feel the need to leave the garrison (which doesn't happen often), you can just stay flying in the air without any sort of risk of death. I think stuff like that just isn't good form for an MMO. It takes out any sense of urgency. I guess it is convenient, but when you make mechanics such as Npc's that are able to kill you entirely null, it makes things so much less interesting.

No question, garrisons are the single worst thing they have ever put into this game. They are bad on so many levels.

[RickJamesLich]

No question, garrisons are the single worst thing they have ever put into this game. They are bad on so many levels.

I remember when garrisons first came out a lot of people were like "wtf? alright well let's hear more at least" and it sounded like it could've gone in a cool direction but for whatever reason they did a complete 180. Not only that but they used it as an excuse to eliminate other interesting content, such as Karabor.

Even with garrison invasions, it's kind of dumb because you pretty much have to talk to an npc and agree to trigger it. If it was something where you log in, or out of the blue you notice the garrison is under attack... it would've been at least more interesting. As it stands now, it's just a place where you go and get money for doing next to nothing tho lol.

[cFortyfive]

You don't get my point, they should hire the people and don't take their crappy pservers, the team work on Blizzards servers etc. when Blizz don't want or have the time to make Legacy servers.

Sure I don't get the point

You are exaggerating. Criminal activity... Why not compare it to rape while you are at it.

I could have started off lighter but there isn't much of a difference. We can't stop hacks, cheaters and botters either. Doesn't mean everyone should just condone it and doing something against it is absolutely not some sort of unimaginable malicious deed.

[Pann]

Why is this so hard to understand? Risk vs reward...whether it costs a fortune by Blizzards standards or by ours or by a homeless persons, very few businesses will risk something that they think will have no profit. Caveat: this is true for company's that established themselves such as Blizzard or EA, not start up companies bringing out an entirely new product.

I see you've now shifted the goal posts from legacy servers will detract from live to there is no profit in them. Why do you think there is no profit in legacy servers? The majority of what's needed has already been developed and the costs recouped many times over. The petition and the number of active players on Nost shows that clearly there is a demand for the service.

[ActiveTroll]

As much as people love transmog (I love it too), it also is damaging to the game. Used to be, I show up in town and see some player in sick gear and go "how the fuck do i get that? I want that" thus making me go try and do that content. Now, everyone is wearing all kinds of random shit, that desire is gone, and if I want their look, the most likely solution is hop on the auction house or do some old raid.

At this point though, too much convenience has already been added to the game, it's really hard to UNDO convenience once it has been added. Probably the only real solution is release WoW 2.0 or a new MMO, and get it right.

Also can someone playing Alpha legion confirm they are indeed adding a new garrison style system?

- - - Updated - - -

I see you've now shifted the goal posts from legacy servers will detract from live to there is no profit in them. Why do you think there is no profit in legacy servers? The majority of what's needed has already been developed and the costs recouped many times over. The petition and the number of active players on Nost shows that clearly there is a demand for the service.

I don't necessarily agree with this stance. I think most of those petition signatures are not people who will play legacy, but people who are angry with Blizzard in general. Also Nostalrius was free, so again, inflated numbers. It's very difficult to project possible profit gained or lost from legacy servers. You have to remember that every account playing on a legacy server is also someone who will not be buying any expansion (potentially) then again, you could have crossover, people paying for expansion, playing them a little then going back to legacy. On top of this, they also would have to split off a team to support the legacy servers, because Blizzard supports ALL their games. Then you have to consider, it could possibly leach the other direction, draining people off live servers, causing them to feel more dead, causing more people to quit. Not to mention, how long will these players even last? People constantly complain about content droughts, how much damn content do you think there is in vanilla? At the end of the day, it's not a really a good solution for a gaming company that is trying to move forward.

[RickJamesLich]

I see you've now shifted the goal posts from legacy servers will detract from live to there is no profit in them. Why do you think there is no profit in legacy servers? The majority of what's needed has already been developed and the costs recouped many times over. The petition and the number of active players on Nost shows that clearly there is a demand for the service.

Found an interesting article in which former WoW developer Mark Kern discusses this very topic:

http://www.pcinvasion.com/ex-world-o...izzard-vanilla

Let’s put that in perspective. When we planned World of Warcraft, we only expected 1M sold and 500k active. And yet..and yet that was enough to bet the whole company on making WoW. It was the most expensive game Blizzard had ever made, and a huge risk. And yet, we would have been happy with 1M accounts back then. So I don’t understand this talk about 850k account not being worthwhile. That’s bunk. And you know what? With Blizzard officially behind legacy servers, you would see far more than 1M account re-activations. If a relatively unknown private server can reach 850k, then think what putting the Blizzard name behind it could do…far, far more.

As for 150k active, my understanding is that was measured over a 10 day window. The industry standard for measuring active is 30 days. I bet the 30 day number is higher, but even at 150k, during vanilla WoW we only expected around 450k active subscribers, and it would have been a huge success. Nostalrius is not that far off from what would have been a home run for us at the time. Of course, we ended up doing much, much more than that, but I’m talking about what we would have been thrilled with in the beginning and been very profitable.

[helzbelz]

Actually it is pretty faceroll. not to mention, this whole multiple difficulties thing is a stupid system. Ulduar had the perfect difficulty scaling system, they should copy that going forward. LFR should be removed, mythic removed, just one difficulty, with hard mode activation. LFR is an abomination, especially for new players. New players will not stick around when they have beaten LFR (essentially the game). Frankly I think LFD should also be removed. Players should need to socialize to form groups and then find the actual dungeon entrance.

WoW is dying because it's too easy to solo everything in the game with no social interaction, and generally speaking that's actually the easier way to get the loot, so not only is solo play possible, but encouraged. Only mythic is out of reach for the solo player, and when a new player has beaten LFR and has gear that trumps all content they can reasonably do, they won't keep playing. They made no social ties, why would they continue?

I know it was frustrating forming groups, but it was also necessary. People just don't understand basic human psychology. With no risk or effort, there is no reward.

I am with you ActiveTroll. LFD and LFR plus the AOE fest dungeons are the reason why my wife myself and many of our friends quit WOW. The social ties is what keeps players playing and catering to the welfare casuals is what has killed WOW. Now I am a casual myself. I was happy in TBC even though I never did but the first few bosses in SCC and TK because I was casual schedule player. I was happy spending months on different characters in heroics. I loved CC. I loved having 100 or so friends on my friends list and my guild. But today MMORPGs are not social because WOW tried to mainstream WOW thinking they would make a few million more people happy and make more money. MMORPGs are social by nature and are not designed to be a fast food joint.

I will come back to WOW when they give me TBC servers. I already have 2 dozen + friends game if Blizzard put these old servers up. Not one of us are buying Legion because we dont need another game which could just be ported into facebook.

- - - Updated - - -

I see you've now shifted the goal posts from legacy servers will detract from live to there is no profit in them. Why do you think there is no profit in legacy servers? The majority of what's needed has already been developed and the costs recouped many times over. The petition and the number of active players on Nost shows that clearly there is a demand for the service.

Pan,

You are full of shit. 150K active in 10 days and possibly 650K more active within 30 to 60 days. Add to that people like myself who would resub to come back to official servers who dont even play on Private servers. Add to that my 2 dozen + friends and Wife. Who I met in vanilla WOW. You are looking at 500K to 2 Million people when WOW subs are likely under 3 Million right now. Stop drinking the koolaid that blizzard is feeding to you because it will be profitable, the only difference it wouldnt be as profitable as overwatch which is a new game yet WOW is already bought and paid for 100 times over.

[Deleted]

Look, everybody should sign the petition, what do you have to lose? Only blizzard loses maybe some money and ofc share holders would be against it. But in the end, thats all it is, money, the root of all evil.

Even if you didn't even like the old WoW, why argue with them trying to convince them the new way is better? You can't tell people what to like, you wouldn't tell a gay male he can't like men. Sign the petition.
Sick of people whining about your LFR? Get rid of them, let them play the old branch, sign the petition.
Don't like elitists and special snowflakes? Sign the petition.
Should I keep going?

[MoanaLisa]

I see you've now shifted the goal posts from legacy servers will detract from live to there is no profit in them. Why do you think there is no profit in legacy servers? The majority of what's needed has already been developed and the costs recouped many times over. The petition and the number of active players on Nost shows that clearly there is a demand for the service.

If it's free perhaps. No one knows how much demand there will be for it at $15/month. Not you, not I, not anyone. Blizzard has a guess of course and their guess seems to be that despite a lot of forum chatter about it over many years (this isn't the first time it's come up after all) that the project won't scale to a point that will be interesting for them. They may have made games for 500K players in the mid-2000's but they don't any longer.

Let's be generous and assume they end up with 100,000 paying customers at $10/month. That's $12,000,000/year before costs. That's a drop in the bucket for them and not worth their time when any resources they would put on it could be working on something that would likely return much more in revenue. There may be profit in it but probably not enough to tweak their interest. In a Darwinian universe in which projects are done based on their potential ROI this hardly even causes a bump on Blizzard's bottom line.

[helzbelz]

Look, everybody should sign the petition, what do you have to lose? Only blizzard loses maybe some money and ofc share holders would be against it. But in the end, thats all it is, money, the root of all evil.

Even if you didn't even like the old WoW, why argue with them trying to convince them the new way is better? You can't tell people what to like, you wouldn't tell a gay male he can't like men. Sign the petition.
Sick of people whining about your LFR? Get rid of them, let them play the old branch, sign the petition.
Don't like elitists and special snowflakes? Sign the petition

That is a good idea Chronoboom. People can play the solo version of WOW then and then people like me can play the version of WOW I like. Besides a few other MMOs did classic servers successfully and ended up making money because of it. Runescape is an example.

[RickJamesLich]

Also can someone playing Alpha legion confirm they are indeed adding a new garrison style system?

Class halls will be the new thing next game, the one thing is that the garrison mission table will be back in Legion lmao - blizzard confirmed this and yes, they know a lot of people are pissed hearing this news. Not sure if other elements of the garrison will be retained tho.

[Eapoe]

I see you've now shifted the goal posts from legacy servers will detract from live to there is no profit in them. Why do you think there is no profit in legacy servers? The majority of what's needed has already been developed and the costs recouped many times over. The petition and the number of active players on Nost shows that clearly there is a demand for the service.

I have no clue how you draw any of your conclusions. My stance has never changed one way or the other. You read one reply to something someone said and draw a conclusion to how my stance has changed, never has. The response you quoted was directly at someone who responded to a post I made ABOUT retail being affected where money was a factor in my post. There direct question summed up "How would a drop in the pond of wealth that is Blizzard matter at all to them if they spent it?"
Please, research posts before you try and call someone out on something, it just shows naivety to what's being discussed.