1. #20001
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    If it's free perhaps. No one knows how much demand there will be for it at $15/month. Not you, not I, not anyone. Blizzard has a guess of course and their guess seems to be that despite a lot of forum chatter about it over many years (this isn't the first time it's come up after all) that the project won't scale to a point that will be interesting for them. They may have made games for 500K players in the mid-2000's but they don't any longer.

    Let's be generous and assume they end up with 100,000 paying customers at $10/month. That's $12,000,000/year before costs. That's a drop in the bucket for them and not worth their time when any resources they would put on it could be working on something that would likely return much more in revenue. There may be profit in it but probably not enough to tweak their interest. In a Darwinian universe in which projects are done based on their potential ROI this hardly even causes a bump on Blizzard's bottom line.
    Moanalisa. There is a large demand, they had 800K registered accounts. Yet there are people like me and my wife and many of my friends who never played on a private server that would come back for official servers. Mark Kern said there is likely 1 million to 2 Million people interested. Even if you get around 500K active players you still will make around 27 Million a year. YES it will not beat what overwatch is going to do, but will it help WOW subs and the cash flow from there? Yep.

  2. #20002
    Quote Originally Posted by helzbelz View Post
    Pan,

    You are full of shit. 150K active in 10 days and possibly 650K more active within 30 to 60 days. Add to that people like myself who would resub to come back to official servers who dont even play on Private servers. Add to that my 2 dozen + friends and Wife. Who I met in vanilla WOW. You are looking at 500K to 2 Million people when WOW subs are likely under 3 Million right now. Stop drinking the koolaid that blizzard is feeding to you because it will be profitable, the only difference it wouldnt be as profitable as overwatch which is a new game yet WOW is already bought and paid for 100 times over.
    I'm sorry it would appear that reading is a skill that passed you by. You're calling me full of shit and then pretty much agreeing with what I have written but with added hyperbole and a large dose of exaggeration.

  3. #20003
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by helzbelz View Post
    Moanalisa. There is a large demand, they had 800K registered accounts.
    150,000 active accounts at the time they were shut down. 150K who were playing the game for free.

    We'll just have to disagree that that number will rise when there's a monthly cost associated with it. Or that that 150K will still be there 18 months after launch. I don't think they will. Why would Blizzard open this door and walk into a sinkhole of "We want BC and Wrath Servers", never mind that if people didn't stay around they would be put into the position of having to close them again? That's not even sensible.
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  4. #20004
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    If it's free perhaps. No one knows how much demand there will be for it at $15/month. Not you, not I, not anyone. Blizzard has a guess of course and their guess seems to be that despite a lot of forum chatter about it over many years (this isn't the first time it's come up after all) that the project won't scale to a point that will be interesting for them. They may have made games for 500K players in the mid-2000's but they don't any longer.

    Let's be generous and assume they end up with 100,000 paying customers at $10/month. That's $12,000,000/year before costs. That's a drop in the bucket for them and not worth their time when any resources they would put on it could be working on something that would likely return much more in revenue. There may be profit in it but probably not enough to tweak their interest. In a Darwinian universe in which projects are done based on their potential ROI this hardly even causes a bump on Blizzard's bottom line.
    Hey, remember when you said this thread out die out by the weekend, 2 weeks ago. Pepperidge Farm remembers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiserneko View Post
    Alright, you've convinced me. You've defeated me with your superior intellect and articulate arguments. All hail Jokerfiend.

  5. #20005
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    lawl, I guess I won't ever find out since I unsubbed from WoD a long time ago. I did some of that challenge mode shit back in MoP and it was not hard though. Essentially it was the same thing as regular dungeons, you run around and aoe everything, except you have to be smart with tank survival CD's.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You don't get level 100 talents at 60, so they person isn't tuned for level 100 talents. If you want to imply that new talent system has made things significantly easier then I'd agree though. That's sort of the point of my argument though. If you still don't understand this let me know.
    So you do not understand. Gotcha.
    Not really a surprise, though.

    Talents now are tuned for level 100. The game is tuned for level 100. Being sub level 100 now actually gives you a disproportional power advantage, as the old content isn't tuned for level 100 talent builds/class abilities.

    For example; paladin has Word of Glory, which didn't exist at level 60. He has infinite mana as a tank, which couldn't happen at level 60. He has strategies that have been honed for 12 years.

    But again, I'm not surprised that you did not understand.

  6. #20006
    Quote Originally Posted by kary View Post
    Leveling in vanilla presented no challenge.
    Leveling in vanilla content in WoD presents no challenge.

    If you really think linking a video to someone with level 100 tuned talents killing a level 60 boss proves your point, well, I'm clearly wasting my time because you lack the ability to comprehend why things like that are possible.

    Anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deficineiron View Post
    Well of course you can compare them, but only to measure Tedium, not Difficulty.

    I will try to illustrate the prevalent thinking on this:

    Mob A does 20% of your HP per hit.

    Mob B tickles you for 1%.

    Which mob is more difficult to kill? (Answer - neither, they are equally difficult. Mob A is more tedious).

    The Tedium Principle was established definitively in the last few pages of this thread.

    Now lets try this one.

    Player A kills an outdoor mob in 1-2 hits, usually less than 3 seconds total.

    Player B needs 6-7 hits, often around 10 seconds total at least. If he is fighting mob A above he might could even die.

    Which player will find the game more difficult - you guessed it, neither.
    It is the same difficulty, but player B has a more tedious game - and if he dies, it gets really tedious. If he has several mob A's in a group that pull together, that is extra-special tedium there, but it is NOT difficult..

    i didn't believe it either until it was explained above.

    Using this logic from our resident savants, you can prove all kinds of things.
    The ICC nerfs didn't make the raids less difficult (straight % alterations).
    The tbc pre-wotlk raid nerfs didn't either, even 30% was no change in difficulty.
    Today's instances are no less difficult than tbc heroics.
    Most raid difficulties that don't introduce new mechanics are equally difficult on LFR and other difficulties.

    Yes, it may be confusing at first to convince yourself of this, but you, too, can learn to prove that nothing is difficult, just tedious.

    An interesting consequence of this discovery is the possibility that blizzard may have falsely named most of their 'difficulty' settings.
    Many raids and instances with multiple difficulties (from tbc heroics forward) did not introduce new mechanics, but rather just higher damage by mobs, which in fact is not difficulty at all but just an increase in tedium.
    It would be more appropriate in such cases to describe it as 'Normal Tedium' or Heroic Tedium.
    That said, a number of tbc heroic bosses did have new mechanics, so it is important to be careful when deciding whether there is in fact a difficulty change or just a tedium change.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deficineiron View Post
    I had forgotten to quite using the obsolete word 'difficulty' and replace with 'tedium/tedious' also. As I understand Forum Logic here, if the mob does more damage, it isn't more difficult, just more tedious.
    This is a fascinating discovery because it means that in many cases blizzard has been lying about multiple difficulty levels, where in fact there were only multiple Tedium levels.

    Say want to run instance xyz on Heroic Tedium?
    As you appear to have forgotten the ridicule you suffered, I think I'll just leave this here to refresh your memory.
    See you in another 500 pages with the same inane arguments.

  7. #20007
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    150,000 active accounts at the time they were shut down. 150K who were playing the game for free.

    We'll just have to disagree that that number will rise when there's a monthly cost associated with it. Or that that 150K will still be there 18 months after launch. I don't think they will. Why would Blizzard open this door and walk into a sinkhole of "We want BC and Wrath Servers", never mind that if people didn't stay around they would be put into the position of having to close them again? That's not even sensible.
    http://www.pcinvasion.com/ex-world-o...izzard-vanilla
    So I don’t understand this talk about 850k account not being worthwhile. That’s bunk. And you know what? With Blizzard officially behind legacy servers, you would see far more than 1M account re-activations. If a relatively unknown private server can reach 850k, then think what putting the Blizzard name behind it could do…far, far more.
    I'm sure you have more insight into the game than a guy who worked on it in the first place /sarcasm

    B..bb..bbuutt it was free!
    Yeah and illegal, Not advertised through regular channels and certainly not by Blizzard. And don't forget ILLEGAL.
    Last edited by Lolsteak; 2016-04-23 at 12:58 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Potboza View Post
    I created a black human male called "Pedopriest" and ran him to SW.
    I started asking where the schools were.
    Someone said "My kids play on this server you creep! How can you live with yourself?"
    I whispered back, "How old are they?"
    Yeah.

  8. #20008
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    I have no clue how you draw any of your conclusions. My stance has never changed one way or the other. You read one reply to something someone said and draw a conclusion to how my stance has changed, never has. The response you quoted was directly at someone who responded to a post I made ABOUT retail being affected where money was a factor in my post. There direct question summed up "How would a drop in the pond of wealth that is Blizzard matter at all to them if they spent it?"
    Please, research posts before you try and call someone out on something, it just shows naivety to what's being discussed.
    Well I draw my conclusions from what you have written. You at first claimed that a legacy service would impact live although there is no evidence to support this and plenty, from the fact that Blizzard have developed and supported multiple titles and side projects throughout WoW's lifespan, to refute this claim. You are now claiming that money would be a factor when all evidence points to a legacy service being cheap, in comparison to development of a new title, to implement and potentially attracting a large audience.

  9. #20009
    Quote Originally Posted by kary View Post
    So you do not understand. Gotcha.
    Not really a surprise, though.

    Talents now are tuned for level 100. The game is tuned for level 100. Being sub level 100 now actually gives you a disproportional power advantage, as the old content isn't tuned for level 100 talent builds/class abilities.

    For example; paladin has Word of Glory, which didn't exist at level 60. He has infinite mana as a tank, which couldn't happen at level 60. He has strategies that have been honed for 12 years.

    But again, I'm not surprised that you did not understand.
    You are pretty much now just trying to say the same thing I am. By tuning the game for level 100 they've through the rest of the game out of whack and everything prior to 100 is massively undertuned. Not only that but even at 100 it's hard to argue it's properly tuned. Garrisons allow players to make money without ever visiting the open world.... A LOT of money lol. To the point where it's more profitable to stay in your base than it is to actually travel to other area's. Speaking of which, flying mounts are back in the game, the one thing that pretty much negates any mobs ability to kill you. So yes, the game is a lot easier now.

  10. #20010
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    150,000 active accounts at the time they were shut down. 150K who were playing the game for free.

    We'll just have to disagree that that number will rise when there's a monthly cost associated with it. Or that that 150K will still be there 18 months after launch. I don't think they will. Why would Blizzard open this door and walk into a sinkhole of "We want BC and Wrath Servers", never mind that if people didn't stay around they would be put into the position of having to close them again? That's not even sensible.
    What else do you want? I mean, you can't have it both ways. It's was popular for what it was. Who in the hell wants to play a 10 years old version of a game, but the veterans.

    I mean, how BIG do you expect a private server to get? As far as, it goes. it was the penultimate of Vanilla servers. But you expect retail numbers to have viable. Do you expect every single person, that has ever wanted to go back to play?

    What did you expect? Honestly?

    Retail Legacy Servers will only allow a bigger market to advertise too, thus in turn, will have more players. More than 5% of the current base around the world was active on Nost. About 50% of the current US players base as tried it. Deny it all you want, but honestly 150K ACTIVE accounts was a monumental achievement for a private party server.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiserneko View Post
    Alright, you've convinced me. You've defeated me with your superior intellect and articulate arguments. All hail Jokerfiend.

  11. #20011
    Quote Originally Posted by Packers01 View Post
    But while garrison followers and missions were a substantial portion of the content in Warlords, Order Hall missions are probably more like 3% of Legion."
    As long as they aren't required. In other words, no tying them into main progression and no ridiculous rewards like 30k gold a month etc.

  12. #20012
    Quote Originally Posted by Roadblock View Post
    As you appear to have forgotten the ridicule you suffered, I think I'll just leave this here to refresh your memory.
    See you in another 500 pages with the same inane arguments.
    Ridicule? You mean being subject to a rose tinted circlejerk?
    Nice quote that ignored all of my reference to added mechanics added between raid difficulties, and the damage done by the additional mechanics, that require better play.

    There's no instance with identical mechanics in normal/heroic in WoW. I dare you to show me an encounter without additional mechanics in an increased difficulty.

    Leveling in vanilla required no thought. Leveling now requires no thought.
    Ever level an AH/PvP twink in vanilla? It's as dumb as leveling a full BoA geared toon, however takes longer because no increased experience. Leveling in vanilla would be similar to an ironman challenge now, since gear scales infinitely better now than it did back then. No-gear leveling isn't hard, either. You just do significantly less damage and things take longer.
    Last edited by kary; 2016-04-23 at 01:08 AM.

  13. #20013
    Quote Originally Posted by Packers01 View Post
    Yep, they said they know they made a mistake with making garrison so powerful.
    I'd be surprised if they are upset with the amount of players that are subscribed with the sole intent of farming that garrison gold.

    If it's bad as it currently is.. I can't image how it would be without those and the Token introduction. They are certainly not dumb.

  14. #20014
    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerfiend View Post
    What else do you want? I mean, you can't have it both ways. It's was popular for what it was. Who in the hell wants to play a 10 years old version of a game, but the veterans.

    I mean, how BIG do you expect a private server to get? As far as, it goes. it was the penultimate of Vanilla servers. But you expect retail numbers to have viable. Do you expect every single person, that has ever wanted to go back to play?

    What did you expect? Honestly?

    Retail Legacy Servers will only allow a bigger market to advertise too, thus in turn, will have more players. More than 5% of the current base around the world was active on Nost. About 50% of the current US players base as tried it. Deny it all you want, but honestly 150K ACTIVE accounts was a monumental achievement for a private party server.
    Mark Kern pretty much already shut down a lot of what MoanaLisa has said. Here's a link to the interview:


    http://www.pcinvasion.com/ex-world-o...izzard-vanilla

    Of note he pretty much mentions that if World of Warcraft wasn't a success, it would've likely shut down blizzard. And by success they were looking for at least 1 million subscribers. Nostalrius had 850k people sign up. So he basically is stating "with blizzard's name and advertising backing it up" that a legacy server would likely already be successful according to blizzard's own metrics.

  15. #20015
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolsteak View Post
    I'm sure you have more insight into the game than a guy who worked on it in the first place /sarcasm
    His grandstanding on this aside, I don't view Mark Kern as a credible source on anything at Blizzard in 2016. I also don't view him as a very credible source on predicting how well some game is going to do after being an active observer/beta tester/player in Firefall.

    What's he done lately anyway? Is he immune from the idea that "you're only as good as your last game"? He's got a certain segment of people going though. Good for him I guess.
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  16. #20016
    Quote Originally Posted by kary View Post
    Ridicule? You mean being subject to a rose tinted circlejerk?
    Nice quote that ignored all of my reference to added mechanics added between raid difficulties, and the damage done by the additional mechanics, that require better play.

    There's no instance with identical mechanics in normal/heroic in WoW. I dare you to show me an encounter without additional mechanics in an increased difficulty.

    Leveling in vanilla required no thought. Leveling now requires no thought.
    Ever level an AH/PvP twink in vanilla? It's as dumb as leveling a full BoA geared toon, however takes longer because no increased experience. Leveling in vanilla would be similar to an ironman challenge now, since gear scales infinitely better now than it did back then. No-gear leveling isn't hard, either. You just do significantly less damage and things take longer.
    Er.. weren't TBC Heroics just increases in HP & DMG?
    Quote Originally Posted by Potboza View Post
    I created a black human male called "Pedopriest" and ran him to SW.
    I started asking where the schools were.
    Someone said "My kids play on this server you creep! How can you live with yourself?"
    I whispered back, "How old are they?"
    Yeah.

  17. #20017
    Quote Originally Posted by Packers01 View Post
    Yep, they said they know they made a mistake with making garrison so powerful.
    Players warned blizzard of the mistakes with garrisons before they were even released and they went through with it anyways. So going into this, I'm kind of skeptical that blizzard will hold true to their word.

  18. #20018
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    150,000 active accounts at the time they were shut down. 150K who were playing the game for free.

    We'll just have to disagree that that number will rise when there's a monthly cost associated with it. Or that that 150K will still be there 18 months after launch. I don't think they will. Why would Blizzard open this door and walk into a sinkhole of "We want BC and Wrath Servers", never mind that if people didn't stay around they would be put into the position of having to close them again? That's not even sensible.
    The legacy crowd are in there own bubble they don't think about the future there stuck in the passed . They would need 3 dev teams and customer support teams for vanila/tbc/wrath because they have different codes and bugs unlike the live team thats all trained in one code/engine with the bugs that come with it. They also don't take into fact tax and over head cost when saying how much profit bliz would make from them. They also dont take into fact how many people made fake sig on partition and how many where just doing it because there favourte streamer/youtube asked them to or how many just did it because they currently hate bliz for making wod shit. I dont know the real number and what may happen if they done legacy servers but i cant take an educated guess like blizzard has.

    I honestly think if the want for legacy server was as big as alot of people are making it out to be there would be a million sigs on the partition with the majority of them being fake ofc but still i expected more. Ps all the people i play with and talk to in live wow dont give a crap about legacy servers and want to stay out of this enite topic who just want legion not to suck.

  19. #20019
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    His grandstanding on this aside, I don't view Kern as a credible source on anything at Blizzard in 2016. I also don't view him as a very credible source on predicting how well some game is going to do after being an active observer/beta tester/player in Firefall.

    What's he done lately anyway? Is he immune from the idea that "you're only as good as your last game"?
    Fortunately what you view as a credible source is irrelevant, That aside his recent career history is of no importance when the entire discussion is about a game he helped create 12 years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Potboza View Post
    I created a black human male called "Pedopriest" and ran him to SW.
    I started asking where the schools were.
    Someone said "My kids play on this server you creep! How can you live with yourself?"
    I whispered back, "How old are they?"
    Yeah.

  20. #20020
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolsteak View Post
    Er.. weren't TBC Heroics just increases in HP & DMG?
    Nah, at least some of the bosses off the top of my head definitely had extra abilities or would have something added to their regular mechanics (like a boss that spawned 1 add would now spawn 2).

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