Classic World of Warcraft Discussion [Megathread]

[Deleted]

There is no reason to suggest the millions of players who quit WoD are still looking around WoW and fan base websites, i would bet many people have yet to even notice what's going on. Much of the turn off it most likely old graphics and bugs, and the feeling all your data can be wiped at any point. As for the money, how are blizzard playing for diablo servers and overwatch etc? I would imagine with a bit of programming and then be used with latest tech, they can do it very cheap. Even indie developers can pull out bug fixes in at least 2 weeks, with a team of...2

[Jokerfiend]

Mark Kern pretty much already shut down a lot of what MoanaLisa has said. Here's a link to the interview:


http://www.pcinvasion.com/ex-world-o...izzard-vanilla

Of note he pretty much mentions that if World of Warcraft wasn't a success, it would've likely shut down blizzard. And by success they were looking for at least 1 million subscribers. Nostalrius had 850k people sign up. So he basically is stating "with blizzard's name and advertising backing it up" that a legacy server would likely already be successful according to blizzard's own metrics.

I know, I was saying that 700 pages ago, before the interview was ever done.

As much as I want them as the next Vanilla enthusiast, it's likely not to happen.

I think a perfect way to implement Vanilla Servers in WoW currently, is to make them a Seasonal thing at the end of the expansion cycle. Wipe the server at the start of an expansion. Once the last raid is out, open them up again.

This way the Old doesn't conflict with the new.

[ActiveTroll]

Mark Kern pretty much already shut down a lot of what MoanaLisa has said. Here's a link to the interview:


http://www.pcinvasion.com/ex-world-o...izzard-vanilla

Of note he pretty much mentions that if World of Warcraft wasn't a success, it would've likely shut down blizzard. And by success they were looking for at least 1 million subscribers. Nostalrius had 850k people sign up. So he basically is stating "with blizzard's name and advertising backing it up" that a legacy server would likely already be successful according to blizzard's own metrics.

Mark Kern isn't really an authority on this though. Not to mention he hasn't considered all kinds of factors, 1: Nostalrius was FREE. this is the biggest one. You cannot extrapolate how many people will be willing to pay $15 a month from a population of people paying nothing. Further more, he says "Blizzards name and advertising" Advertising costs money, big money. More importantly, what's the damn life span of a vanilla server? there is only so much content in vanilla, most people will quit relatively quickly, especially those that already played vanilla. Then you are also undermining future WoW expansions and wow products.

Mark Kern is looking for 15 minutes in the spotlight, he's not an authority on this, nor does he know what he's talking about.

[Zafire]

Mark Kern isn't really an authority on this though. Not to mention he hasn't considered all kinds of factors, 1: Nostalrius was FREE. this is the biggest one. You cannot extrapolate how many people will be willing to pay $15 a month from a population of people paying nothing. Further more, he says "Blizzards name and advertising" Advertising costs money, big money. More importantly, what's the damn life span of a vanilla server? there is only so much content in vanilla, most people will quit relatively quickly, especially those that already played vanilla. Then you are also undermining future WoW expansions and wow products.

Mark Kern is looking for 15 minutes in the spotlight, he's not an authority on this, nor does he know what he's talking about.

1) $15 is nothing. People spend almost that much on a fast food meal
2) Some people don't play on a private server BECAUSE it is illegal or BECAUSE they know it wont last forever
3) Some people didn't even know about Nost existing because it wasn't advertised, like me.

[Lolsteak]

Mark Kern isn't really an authority on this though. Not to mention he hasn't considered all kinds of factors, 1: Nostalrius was FREE. this is the biggest one. You cannot extrapolate how many people will be willing to pay $15 a month from a population of people paying nothing.

More people pay for things than steal, Next.

Further more, he says "Blizzards name and advertising" Advertising costs money, big money.

Do you think Blizzard are poor or something?

More importantly, what's the damn life span of a vanilla server? there is only so much content in vanilla, most people will quit relatively quickly, especially those that already played vanilla.

12 Years so far

Mark Kern is looking for 15 minutes in the spotlight, he's not an authority on this, nor does he know what he's talking about.

He knows a damn sight more than any of us, It's hard to even take you seriously when you say that.

[RickJamesLich]

I know, I was saying that 700 pages ago, before the interview was ever done.

As much as I want them as the next Vanilla enthusiast, it's likely not to happen.

I think a perfect way to implement Vanilla Servers in WoW currently, is to make them a Seasonal thing at the end of the expansion cycle. Wipe the server at the start of an expansion. Once the last raid is out, open them up again.

This way the Old doesn't conflict with the new.

Yeah I'd be *very* surprised if they actually did give the players what they want here, but then again, the only way we are going to be able to get noticed is if we speak loud enough.

But the idea that these servers wouldn't bring any sort of profit is something nobody should believe. The private server with almost no advertising did amazingly well, even by blizzard's own metrics. Of course having to pay for the game is definitely a different scenario but it seems pretty obvious that when people petition blizzard to release this type of server that they are willing to pay.

Personally I think they should do vanilla and BC servers with wotlk down the road and keep them up full time and just lump them under the wow subscription fee. Not only does this translate to more money out the gate, but it opens up the possibility of blizzard getting old fans back who then try out the new game anyways (or other blizzard games). That being said I do think this type of thing is pretty much the perfect and really only remedy for content droughts. Which have gotten really bad over the last 4 expansions. There is no sign of these things improving despite what blizzard said back in Wotlk. Every expansion loses players simply due to the droughts, legacy servers are really the only thing I can think of that could retain players.

[Eapoe]

Well I draw my conclusions from what you have written. You at first claimed that a legacy service would impact live although there is no evidence to support this and plenty, from the fact that Blizzard have developed and supported multiple titles and side projects throughout WoW's lifespan, to refute this claim. You are now claiming that money would be a factor when all evidence points to a legacy service being cheap, in comparison to development of a new title, to implement and potentially attracting a large audience.

No, I posted why it would impact "retail" if done in a certain way, just like how it would impact other games if done in a certain way. The times I said it would is directly tied into responses to how people have proposed it to be done. Other posts I expressly stated how it could. The evidence of how it would is clearly drawn out in what I said.
As far as hiring a new team, this comes from money that's set aside for all other things in Blizzard, which has to be taken from somewhere, whether that is future content in WoW or future games development or the employees pockets themselves. This is where the risk vs reward I keep bringing up comes from. As a company, they have t decide if they want to take money from a figuratively collective pool of resources for other projects to invest into a Legacy server. This then leads into if Blizzard, as a company, would feel it wants to devote any resources to a Legacy project, no matter how small the money might seem to them or against their assets, a loss is a loss, and it is up to them to take what they know if they will be able to make an actual profit off of this while potentially taking away from other things they are working on or attempting to do.
Someone quoted Blizzard as a 1 billion dollar company, that's awesome, but take into account all of their business ventures. Things like a movie than they've probably invested well over a 100-200 million price tag in production, probably a couple million more in advertisements, the millions they spend on Legion production and advertisements, the millions they've spent on hearthstone and HotS, the millions they are putting into Overwatch, the millions they pay into employees pockets, the millions they spend on things like Blizzcon and company trips, and the millions they spend to maintain all of these properties. Yes, they have a fortune, they also have it allocated to things while still attempting profits. All of these things (obviously some embellished and estimations) is what Blizzard calculates against when making decisions.

[kary]

Er.. weren't TBC Heroics just increases in HP & DMG?

Nope. A fair share of tbc bosses had mechanics you didn't have to deal with, if memory serves. Could be mainly from wrath onwards but I def remember heroic ramparts having things like fire on the dragon boss at the end that persisted. Maybe TBC was too far back to remember, but I know from wrath onwards this holds true.

[Jokerfiend]

Mark Kern isn't really an authority on this though. Not to mention he hasn't considered all kinds of factors, 1: Nostalrius was FREE. this is the biggest one. You cannot extrapolate how many people will be willing to pay $15 a month from a population of people paying nothing. Further more, he says "Blizzards name and advertising" Advertising costs money, big money. More importantly, what's the damn life span of a vanilla server? there is only so much content in vanilla, most people will quit relatively quickly, especially those that already played vanilla. Then you are also undermining future WoW expansions and wow products.

Mark Kern is looking for 15 minutes in the spotlight, he's not an authority on this, nor does he know what he's talking about.

LMAO. I love the genetic logical fallacy here.

If anything, Mark Kerns has far more credence than anyone else with their hat in the mix. He is an authority on the matter, like it or not.

[Yelmurc]

Vanilla Servers will cost us a raid tier.

[Lolsteak]

Nope. A fair share of tbc bosses had mechanics you didn't have to deal with, if memory serves. Could be mainly from wrath onwards but I def remember heroic ramparts having things like fire on the dragon boss at the end that persisted. Maybe TBC was too far back to remember, but I know from wrath onwards this holds true.

I'm finding it hard to find a boss with extra mechanics in TBC, According to the WoWiki the fire on the boss at the end of ramparts is part of normal also

Liquid Flame (When the Fireball hits the ground, the ground burns, dealing immense amounts of fire damage to anyone caught in the flames.)

[Edit] Found one with Talon King Ikiss sheeping the tank, Still I'd say most of the bosses in TBC Heroics are identical apart from HP/DMG

[FlemmMinis]

I can't believe this is still going on.

[RickJamesLich]

Mark Kern isn't really an authority on this though. Not to mention he hasn't considered all kinds of factors, 1: Nostalrius was FREE. this is the biggest one. You cannot extrapolate how many people will be willing to pay $15 a month from a population of people paying nothing. Further more, he says "Blizzards name and advertising" Advertising costs money, big money. More importantly, what's the damn life span of a vanilla server? there is only so much content in vanilla, most people will quit relatively quickly, especially those that already played vanilla. Then you are also undermining future WoW expansions and wow products.

Mark Kern is looking for 15 minutes in the spotlight, he's not an authority on this, nor does he know what he's talking about.

Not all advertising costs money though. For example this site is dedicated to warcraft as it is and could bring much publicity to a legacy server. Aside from ads... does blizzard pay MMO-champ at all? I'm curious. I don't think blizzard would have to release TV commercials for example, to bring awareness to this type of thing. Simply put up the server and video game websites would give them a lot of free publicity alone.

I will agree that Nostalrius was free, but on the flip side I think you can agree that there was almost no possibly way to become aware of Nostalrius aside from word of mouth. A legacy server listed on blizzard's website alone would get massive publicity in comparison.

As for content in vanilla, that's a discussion for much debate. That being said, I'd estimate it takes likely about a 1 year to 1 year and a half before you're really clearing Naxx. Keep in mind that you and your guildies have to be geared, and that doesn't just come from raiding alone, rather pvp and rep grinds as well. Considering the year long content droughts (in this case 14 months long) this is probably the best remedy you can find for retaining players.

Not to mention the spill over from some players that will then want to try retail, just to see what has changed and such. But yes, if someone does outlive that vanilla server lifespan...... the next step is.... drumroll... Burning Crusade Essentially by releasing legacy servers blizzard will be giving players far more content than they get from retail, and since that content is often gated, it's going to have a much larger shelf life. No undermining other games here though, rather blizzard would have the opportunity to bring lost players back and possibly get them hooked on new games in the process.

As for Mark Kern's credibility, I'd have to disagree with you on him being an authority. He worked for blizzard and was instrumental in vanilla. He knows what he's speaking about. The guy knows the time investments, what cost what, etc. He's pretty much about as credible of a source as you can obtain and he is unbias because he does not want a job out of this.

[kary]

I'm finding it hard to find a boss with extra mechanics in TBC, According to the WoWiki the fire on the boss at the end of ramparts is part of normal also

Fair enough. As I said TBC was long ago, so I guess I'm wrong for that particular expansion. WoTLK onwards it's the case, though.

[MoanaLisa]

This way the Old doesn't conflict with the new.

Despite what people think, my personal opinion is that this would be good and probably useful.

I'm relatively ambivalent about vanilla servers (although I would actively pay for a few months on a 1-80 Wrath server). I can take them or leave them. I do think though that if Blizzard has any thoughts about continuing to do year-long content droughts at the end of expansions, they might want to consider some alternative content forms to keep people occupied and subscribed.

In the real world though: there's zero evidence that Blizzard is inclined to do it; the potential subscription rate long-term is problematical; unknown development and support costs to get something decent together that doesn't rely on the Mangos server emulator (which is a problem in itself...educational software my ass*); what will be for some a rather confusing multiplicity of clients and how that will integrate to Battle.net (it doesn't have to integrate to Battle.net but they will certainly want to do that if they are going to make the effort); and Blizzard's obvious reluctance to embark on what for them are relatively low-value projects. All of that makes it extremely difficult to imagine they're going to do this but they have surprised us before. I hope they come down off their Legion cloud for a moment and clearly state their intentions one way or another. Closure is good. Loud yelling by a couple of hundred people on a forum and a somewhat disgraced developer that hasn't worked with the company for ten years, is not the same thing as guaranteed revenue.

And it's very amusing and not a little bit ironic to see the familiar names that are constantly theorizing that Blizzard slaves under the iron hand of Activision and Bobby Kotick not bring that into this conversation at all as a reason why it might not happen. In this case apparently, Blizzard has a completely free hand. OK.

*getMaNGOS is an educational non-profit organisation and we provide source code for running private MMORPG servers.
Our primary interest is to learn and teach each other (and our users) about development and project management on a large scale project.

Uh huh.

[Lolsteak]

Not to mention the spill over from some players that will then want to try retail, just to see what has changed and such. But yes, if someone does outlive that vanilla server lifespan...... the next step is.... drumroll... Burning Crusade Essentially by releasing legacy servers blizzard will be giving players far more content than they get from retail, and since that content is often gated, it's going to have a much larger shelf life. No undermining other games here though, rather blizzard would have the opportunity to bring lost players back and possibly get them hooked on new games in the process.

I personally wouldn't mind an option to transfer a character from a vanilla only server to live, Cheaper and more satisfying way of obtaining Tier 3 (Which is arguably more valuable in Legion due to account wide transmog and not having class tags on the items).

Not to mention you can still obtain a few mounts and titles from a vanilla server then xfer to live, It would be one micro-transaction I wouldn't mind.

[Bapestar]

do I need to pull up my vanilla toons? Lol.
Vanilla leveling was not hard. It took time, but it wasn't hard. Look at the quality of play by the 2 mages. Keyboard turning, missing casts, etc. They, by today's standards are awful. 11 years ago, we were all awful. Want more evidence? look at a vanilla pvp video and observe the amount of keyboard turning and backpedalling.

- - - Updated - - -



Mobs sub max level haven't been scaled, yes.
It's not comparable. Compare end game to end game. 2 mages in MC gear solo a 5man. You're showing footage of a twink doing content 11 years old. Content with vastly nerfed damage/hp numbers due to the stat squish. Nice try though.

Yes many players were bad, but there was still some challenge. When was the last time you played vanilla? 11 years ago? Lol...

[kary]

Yes many players were bad, but there was still some challenge. When was the last time you played vanilla? 11 years ago? Lol...

...why would I play on a private server? My fond memories of vanilla are connected to the people I played with (and still do) so there's no reason to relive the past. The game moved on, so did I.

It's like going back now and playing pokemon red with an encyclopaedic knowledge of the game. It won't be the same, at all.

[Deleted]

Despite what people think, my persoan opinion is that this would be good and probably useful.

I'm relatively ambivalent about vanilla servers (although I would actively pay for a few months on a 1-80 Wrath server). I can take them or leave them. I do think though that if Blizzard has any thoughts about continuing to do year-long content droughts at the end of expansions, they might want to consider some alternative content forms to keep people occupied and subscribed.

In the real world though: there's zero evidence that Blizzard is inclined to do it; the potential subscription rate long-term is problematical; unknown development and support costs to get something decent together that doesn't rely on the Mangos server emulator (which is a problem in itself...educational software my ass*); what will be for some a rather confusing multiplicity of clients and how that will integrate to Battle.net (it doesn't have to integrate to Battle.net but they will certainly want to do that if they are going to make the effort); and Blizzard's obvious reluctance to embark on what for them are relatively low-value projects. All of that makes it extremely difficult to imagine they're going to do this but they have surprised us before. I hope they come down off their Legion cloud for a moment and clearly state their intentions one way or another. Closure is good. Loud yelling by a couple of hundred people on a forum and a somewhat disgraced developer that hasn't worked with the company for ten years, is not the same thing as guaranteed revenue.

And it's very amusing and not a little bit ironic to see the familiar names that are constantly theorizing that Blizzard slaves under the iron hand of Activision and Bobby Kotick not bring that into this conversation at all as a reason why it might not happen. In this case apparently, Blizzard has a completely free hand. OK.

*getMaNGOS is an educational non-profit organisation and we provide source code for running private MMORPG servers.
Our primary interest is to learn and teach each other (and our users) about development and project management on a large scale project.

Uh huh.

No matter what anyone says, the can be no denying that vanilla wow it lies deep in there souls, blizzard would never be in the posistion they are today without us the fans of this magnificent game, if blizzard where to do the right thing and release official, blizzard legacy servers, it would be the best thing they had done in there lives, to give the veterans there pride, to give them something they enjoy, i would never forget, do it blizzard, do it for the fans of your game, no matter how much it damages legion, remember the people who brought you here, fuck activision and fuck the naysayers, brinng us vanilla, bring us justice, FOR THE HORDE

[AeneasBK]

Nope. A fair share of tbc bosses had mechanics you didn't have to deal with, if memory serves. Could be mainly from wrath onwards but I def remember heroic ramparts having things like fire on the dragon boss at the end that persisted. Maybe TBC was too far back to remember, but I know from wrath onwards this holds true.

AoE fear + Aggro drop on 1st boss of Durnholde was a Heroic Group shatterer if I recall correctly guy definatley didn't do that on normal mode.

EDIT: Might have just been because he didn't live long enough, heyoo