Classic World of Warcraft Discussion [Megathread]

[RickJamesLich]

In a nutshell...the WoW or any RPG questing system never changes.

It is and always will be Kill X/Collect X/Rescue X and so on.

The difference is that right now quests tell a much bigger story.Not only in quest Text.

You can have a quest being.

Slain x Demons
Rescue x Soldier

Shure, one can ignore it, but while they are doing the quest multiple events may happen that are part of a big story.

Legacy quests were the same, Kill this and collect that, but story wasnt given much attention.

The "easier to die" is honestly subjective.It may be harder before, but you have to count:Player Skill + Class as well

I do agree with the sentiment that it won't change and on some level has always been the same, in the sense that you gotta kill 10 scorpids and unlock 3 people from cages. My big thing is I feel retail is too much going from Hub A to Hub B, whereas in Vanilla it was more of going from Hub A and deciding if you should go to Hub B, C, D, E, or F.

If it tells a story, that's cool. The original wow did not, but I do think there comes a price in the form of phased zones where you don't see many players. Cinematics, finding out lore, all that stuff is good to mix in though, no disagreement there. For me it's just the whole turning your toon into a major lore character.... not sure how to put it, but for me it's just sappy. Tough to explain, but I've never been big on that.

Part of what makes questing great is the diversions, whether it's trying to find help to kill an elite, or getting ganked in world pvp, or just trolling a channel with tons of people in it. I think vanilla was good at the diversion thing. I haven't tried Legion, but in WoD for me at least, I engaged in world pvp literally only one time on the way to 100, I never really needed help killing any sort of mob, and the world chat was very quiet. I know my experience is not necessarily the same thing others have dealt with though.

[rda]

Right, yes I know I even mentioned that in my post. You said that using the current client/server would mean that certain mechanics would be missing. I am simply trying to understand why this would be the case.

It appears that the spells for players and NPCs are database entries that tell the server, client or both what to do (what code to execute) when that spell is cast so why would this mean that old mechanics need to removed? Why instead of removing the old mechanics would you not create new ones and tell the server to execute the new code? Given that many NPCs appear to still make use the same spells and mechanics that they did when the game was released wouldn't be potentially game breaking to overwrite or remove the old ones? And wouldn't writing new spells, etc that appear to act in the same way as the old be both very expensive and time consuming?

If they have been removed why can't they be recreated using existing mechanics? For example Fireball Rank 1, although it has been removed, it is essentially the same as the current Fireball spell but with different modifiers and it could be recreated by creating a new spell Fireball Rank 1 which would tell the server to run the fireball script but with new(old) modifiers. Rank 2 would also use the existing fireball script but with different modifiers again and so on and so on for additional ranks.

This seems far simpler and much less expensive than rewriting the old client and server programs. And has the added advantage of not needing to maintain two different sets of code that perform essentially the same task.

Here's what a fireball does in vanilla vs now, very simplified:

In vanilla: take levels of player and target, take hit / spell penetration of player and spell resistance of target, see if there was a hit (if not, abort, otherwise continue), take total spellpower, add total spellpower for fire spells (+fire damage on items), take base spell damage at specified rank, take fire resistance of target (+fire resist on items, existed on mobs too), compute damage, take crit and roll a dice to see if the hit was a crit, if it was, multiply damage by 2, etc. Add checks and adjustments for old talents.

Now: take levels of player and target, see if there was a hit (different from vanilla), if there was a hit, take total spellpower, take base spell damage, etc, compute damage (different from vanilla), take crit and see if the hit was a crit, if it was, multiply damage by 1.5 (again, different). Add checks and adjustments for new talents / traits (different). Add adjustments for being in PVP zones (different).

90% of the differences are in code, 10% are in the database.

Why not keep old versions of everything and just add new things? Ie, when removing +fire spell damage, why not keep the code for applying it in the formulae and just make sure that all items / buffs / etc, tell that they add 0 fire spell damage? Same for resists, spell penetration, spirit, defense rating, armor penetration, multistrike, etc. Same for pet happiness (why not keep it in the formulae that compute damage from pet and just say that the pet is always 100% happy), ammo slots (why not keep their stats added to weapon damage and just say that these stats are 0), hunter spells using mana instead of focus (why not add code for new spells *and* keep code for old ones), rogue combo points being on target instead of on itself (why not add code for having it new way *and* keep code for having it old way), druid shred having to be done from the back instead of from wherever, and ten thousand other things? Because this clutters the code. If you keep old things instead of removing them, you quickly lose the ability to add new things. Because the code turns into a huge mess of leftovers and 90% of the code are these idiotic stubs like "oh, you want spell penetration? sure, it's 0" which just keep getting in the way and make it hard to locate / fix bugs and hard to add new things. You remember that infographic from Cata where they said that there are 10+ mil players now, but there were 100 mil players over the years? It's the same with code, for each active mechanic, there are like ten old versions that were there at one time and got replaced and removed (in fact, this is true for each line of code).

So, when you try to use new server / client to do vanilla, you will get the new fireball. And if you want to get back to the old fireball, you will have to get back to the old stats, old talents, old everything. And that means getting back to the old code - perhaps reinstating it in some form. This can be done, but it is not easy.

[Deficineiron]

The "easier to die" is honestly subjective.It may be harder before, but you have to count:Player Skill + Class as well

I think avg outdoor mob dmg/player health then vs now, tied to avg player dmg/mob health and avg player oh-shoot cooldown, really is more important than skill. if you can survive having 5 mobs pounding on you now and would be dead in 5 seconds then, that probably tells you something and it isn't skill.

that is to say, even now I can die pretty easily trying to clear gol bolar, for example, or the troggs in south loch modan in the 1.12 gamestate. they hit harder and I kill them slower, and I know the class inside out. If i want to clear those areas at level, I need to think and work and run away and still die sometimes.

All other explanations are either secondary (in this case, I am more skilled at old wow than any new wow version) or just evasions.

- - - Updated - - -

So, when you try to use new server / client to do vanilla, you will get the new fireball. And if you want to get back to the old fireball, you will have to get back to the old stats, old talents, old everything. And that means getting back to the old code - perhaps reinstating it in some form. This can be done, but it is not easy.

if we were talking about a smaller (and maybe privately held) company, I would be tempted to think blizz would just update networking/bnet stuff and release the 1.12 client with very limited modification. the more I consider a/b doing this, the more likely it seems they do a more extensive re-work, be it cosmetic or more QOL-oriented or worse. While it seems simple to just wrap the 1.12 client in as a subset of the vastly larger 7.x download/client now, would they actually do that??

[rda]

if we were talking about a smaller (and maybe privately held) company, I would be tempted to think blizz would just update networking/bnet stuff and release the 1.12 client with very limited modification. the more I consider a/b doing this, the more likely it seems they do a more extensive re-work, be it cosmetic or more QOL-oriented or worse. While it seems simple to just wrap the 1.12 client in as a subset of the vastly larger 7.x download/client now, would they actually do that??

Download sizes are irrelevant, it's about what code is going to run - old (with backports of QOL features and bugfixes) or new (with ports of old pieces of technology, ie, with things like +fire spell power rebrought and with hunter shots using ammo and mana instead of focus readded). And strictly in terms of technology and not company politics, taking an old version as a base and porting new code *back* to it is certainly a saner way to do it than the reverse. It's not necessarily easier, but the result is going to be way more robust.

Added: just shipping the 1.12 client would have it connect to the 1.12 server (let's say the infrastructure issues are resolved). This would leave the classic servers without vital bugfixes, and because there were a lot of them, the entire thing could easily be perceived to be very buggy. Warriors will fall through the world during charge, hunter pets would get stuck, mobs would turn unlootable if finished with certain spells, etc, it's a long list. Nobody would risk that. (Before someone asks, private servers don't have many of these bugs, because they got their code via reverse-engineering - they got their own bugs instead, and they are fixing them all the time.)

[Deficineiron]

Download sizes are irrelevant, it's about what code is going to run - old (with backports of QOL features and bugfixes) or new (with ports of old pieces of technology, ie, with things like +fire spell power rebrought and with hunter shots using ammo and mana instead of focus readded). And strictly in terms of technology and not company politics, taking an old version as a base and porting new code *back* to it is certainly a saner way to do it than the reverse. It's not necessarily easier, but the result is going to be way more robust.

my comment on download/client size was meant to address what they would perceive as a need to make it as 'simple' as possible to play both versions - they just wrap them into the client. just having to download a separate client, to a mass market company, is anathemic.

I wonder what major differences there are between teh pre-4.0 engines (e.g. 3.x 2.x etc. ). I have wondered if a 3.4 engine would be preferred as it would integrate some stuff they might like or need (achievements LFD, old talent system structure old pet pathing ) etc. their comments on when they started backing up metadata don't exclude them having late wotlk metadata, either, as a starting point to work back from.

[Vineri]

my comment on download/client size was meant to address what they would perceive as a need to make it as 'simple' as possible to play both versions - they just wrap them into the client. just having to download a separate client, to a mass market company, is anathemic.

I wonder what major differences there are between teh pre-4.0 engines (e.g. 3.x 2.x etc. ). I have wondered if a 3.4 engine would be preferred as it would integrate some stuff they might like or need (achievements LFD, old talent system structure old pet pathing ) etc. their comments on when they started backing up metadata don't exclude them having late wotlk metadata, either, as a starting point to work back from.

Adding LFD would only revert the classic experience back to a lobby game, a factor which lead to the decimation of communities, as players needed to interact less with the world to be guaranteed a group.

I imagine when you said "stuff they might like" you were referring to Blizzard, not classic fans.

[rda]

I wonder what major differences there are between teh pre-4.0 engines (e.g. 3.x 2.x etc. ). I have wondered if a 3.4 engine would be preferred as it would integrate some stuff they might like or need (achievements LFD, old talent system structure old pet pathing ) etc. their comments on when they started backing up metadata don't exclude them having late wotlk metadata, either, as a starting point to work back from.

If we are talking about making classic servers on the base of not 1.12, but, say, 3.5, there were quite a lot of changes. Talent trees were reworked, as a result, leveling felt much, much easier than in vanilla - not even in terms of experience gains being quicker (they increased experience from quests multiple times, but that'd be easy to revert), but simply in how easily you could kill mobs. Power creep in talents / spells certainly made the world way less dangerous (plus, obviously, there were other factors contributing - ie, they removed lots of elites, but that's database, not code, that can be restored easily). There were many changes to core mechanics: we both lost and gained a couple of stats, there was a big rework of threat (most of that in the coefficients, ie, pets would get lower coefficients not to steal things from tanks, apart from certain spells like Growl intended for soloing - but some of it was added / changed logic), there were definitely changes in mounts / dismounts / dazes and all that jazz, etc.

Sum total, maybe it makes sense to start in 3.5, but that for sure will not make it so dramatically easier that they would go from "umm, we won't do classic servers just yet, that's difficult" to "yeah, starting with 3.5 makes it easy enough so that we will do it now".

[Pann]

Here's what a fireball does in vanilla vs now, very simplified:

In vanilla: take levels of player and target, take hit / spell penetration of player and spell resistance of target, see if there was a hit (if not, abort, otherwise continue), take total spellpower, add total spellpower for fire spells (+fire damage on items), take base spell damage at specified rank, take fire resistance of target (+fire resist on items, existed on mobs too), compute damage, take crit and roll a dice to see if the hit was a crit, if it was, multiply damage by 2, etc. Add checks and adjustments for old talents.

Now: take levels of player and target, see if there was a hit (different from vanilla), if there was a hit, take total spellpower, take base spell damage, etc, compute damage (different from vanilla), take crit and see if the hit was a crit, if it was, multiply damage by 1.5 (again, different). Add checks and adjustments for new talents / traits (different). Add adjustments for being in PVP zones (different).

90% of the differences are in code, 10% are in the database.

Why not keep old versions of everything and just add new things? Ie, when removing +fire spell damage, why not keep the code for applying it in the formulae and just make sure that all items / buffs / etc, tell that they add 0 fire spell damage? Same for resists, spell penetration, spirit, defense rating, armor penetration, multistrike, etc. Same for pet happiness (why not keep it in the formulae that compute damage from pet and just say that the pet is always 100% happy), ammo slots (why not keep their stats added to weapon damage and just say that these stats are 0), hunter spells using mana instead of focus (why not add code for new spells *and* keep code for old ones), rogue combo points being on target instead of on itself (why not add code for having it new way *and* keep code for having it old way), druid shred having to be done from the back instead of from wherever, and ten thousand other things? Because this clutters the code. If you keep old things instead of removing them, you quickly lose the ability to add new things. Because the code turns into a huge mess of leftovers and 90% of the code are these idiotic stubs like "oh, you want spell penetration? sure, it's 0" which just keep getting in the way and make it hard to locate / fix bugs and hard to add new things. You remember that infographic from Cata where they said that there are 10+ mil players now, but there were 100 mil players over the years? It's the same with code, for each active mechanic, there are like ten old versions that were there at one time and got replaced and removed (in fact, this is true for each line of code).

So, when you try to use new server / client to do vanilla, you will get the new fireball. And if you want to get back to the old fireball, you will have to get back to the old stats, old talents, old everything. And that means getting back to the old code - perhaps reinstating it in some form. This can be done, but it is not easy.

That does not match what I have read about WoW handles spells. I admit that it might be understanding of how things work that is at fault.

From what I have read Fireball, like all other spells, is a simple database entry. In the fields it includes entries such as range, school, cast time, GCD, etc it is these fields that tells the server and/or client what to do. When a player casts Fireball the server executes the script for ranged spells hit, miss, crit, etc which is entirely separate from the fireball spell.

I can't think of a reason as to why Blizzard would make the current server and client less capable than older version or why they would be unable to deal with the additional variables you describe.

The database entries are still there for the magic school so it would appear that although the spells' behaviour has been altered they have not been removed. Why can't spell penetration, etc just be added back into the attack table? It seems odd that Blizzard would design a system that cannot be easily modified.

Pet happiness can be achieved using the existing buffing system.

It seems your assumptions are based on Blizzard not being able to alter the behaviour of game once they have changed it, I am not saying you are wrong but that seems counter-intuitive when dealing with a game that will require constant changes throughout its life.

I think perhaps we've been approaching the same problem from different directions, whilst I agree that the current server version would use the latest version of whatever script associated with a spell I am saying that the new version can perform in the same manner as old one. It doesn't matter to the player whether the 1.12 code used 1000 lines of code to achieve a certain outcome and 7.1 does the same with 500 lines, all the player cares about is whether the outcome is the same.

[Ielenia]

Adding LFD would only revert the classic experience back to a lobby game,

And standing in a capital city, asking in Trade Chat, over and over, looking for a tank or healer who wanted to join his group for <insert any dungeon here> is somehow better and not a lobby?

[rda]

That does not match what I have read about WoW handles spells. I admit that it might be understanding of how things work that is at fault.

From what I have read Fireball, like all other spells, is a simple database entry. In the fields it includes entries such as range, school, cast time, GCD, etc it is these fields that tells the server and/or client what to do. When a player casts Fireball the server executes the script for ranged spells hit, miss, crit, etc which is entirely separate from the fireball spell.

I can't think of a reason as to why Blizzard would make the current server and client less capable than older version or why they would be unable to deal with the additional variables you describe.

The database entries are still there for the magic school so it would appear that although the spells' behaviour has been altered they have not been removed. Why can't spell penetration, etc just be added back into the attack table? It seems odd that Blizzard would design a system that cannot be easily modified.

Pet happiness can be achieved using the existing buffing system.

It seems your assumptions are based on Blizzard not being able to alter the behaviour of game once they have changed it, I am not saying you are wrong but that seems counter-intuitive when dealing with a game that will require constant changes throughout its life.

I think perhaps we've been approaching the same problem from different directions, whilst I agree that the current server version would use the latest version of whatever script associated with a spell I am saying that the new version can perform in the same manner as old one. It doesn't matter to the player whether the 1.12 code used 1000 lines of code to achieve a certain outcome and 7.1 does the same with 500 lines, all the player cares about is whether the outcome is the same.

I guess I am not good at explaining these issues. It does not help that the subject is complex. Let's drop this topic, I can answer everything above, but I don't know how to do this so that this does not evoke further questions.

[Pann]

I guess I am not good at explaining these issues. It does not help that the subject is complex. Let's drop this topic, I can answer everything above, but I don't know how to do this so that this does not evoke further questions.

Fair enough, thanks for taking the time to explain things. Whilst I don't fully understand what you've said it is appreciated nonetheless.

[Vash The Stampede]

That is not necessarily true. Something 'harder' isn't necessarily 'more rewarding'. You gotta ask yourself: at the end of a task, do you feel satisfied for having finished it, or relieved for finally being done with it? If your reaction more like "yes! I did it!" or more like "ugh, finally done with that"? And here's the kicker: not everyone will choose the same answer.


It's not given to you for free. It's just less effort for the same reward (reaching max level).


Funny. I remember getting a quest that takes me to Westfall while almost done with Elwynn Forest, and a quest to go to Redridge Mountains when I was done with Westfall. There were 'rails' back in vanilla, too.


That is not necessarily a good thing. It was much more an annoyance than something to be praised.


That's not true. It vastly depended on the player. If he pulled too many, but wasn't exactly willing to learn his class while leveling, what he'll do? pull smaller groups. But if he does want to learn what his class is all about, then of course he'll pull as many as he thinks he can take and then some, to push his own limits. That is true both today, and back then.


Just a hint, but if you're going to use colors for your text, at least pick a color that stands out, like bright red, or yellow or green. Not dark purple. I only noticed you colored your text when I saw the color coding. Anyways, it doesn't matter if it's 'epics' or 'item level', people will always use a metric to judge your worth in the game. The results are the same, the only difference being the metrics being used to reach said results.


Assuming (and that's a big assumption) that you start during the beginning of the expansion, take no breaks, and steadily progress through all raids and attunements. If you start later in the expansion, well... you're unfortunately SOUL, and won't be able to see the content without completely overpowering it (i.e. return an expansion later to complete the raids you couldn't in the previous expansion).


IMO, that isn't a good 'lesson to learn', because of the sheer amount of servers Blizzard currently has. Why basically double or triple the number of servers, fragmenting the playerbase in each, on top of having to make more and more servers the more expansions are launched? And Blizzard already mentioned that their plan is to always move forward.

I don't expect you to agree with me. That's why it's an opinion and not a fact. For me there's a lot more value revisiting Vanilla WoW than playing Legion. Especially as a Ret Paladin, which for whatever reason Blizzard can never get right. Eighth times the charm right Blizzard? I plan to make a Spell Damage Paladin like Dernos did. Or a melee butt rape build like Zalgradis. Or a proper Retribution Paladin build like Dernos did once we finally got Crusader Strike, before it was TBC and nerfed to 10 second cool down. That's a lot of cool things I can do for what was essentially an auto attack class back in Vanilla. And because there's no stupid PvP spec system, or any stupid limits to what ilevel or whatever your gear can do in PvP, you can go completely nuts in Vanilla. Southshore anyone? Which was inexplicably nuked for some odd reason. What's world PvP again? To make matters worse, my Paladin in Legit WoW is stuck on Ke'Thuzad which has no horde. So there's no PvP on a PvP server. I could server transfer him, but that's $25. Not like world PvP is a thing anymore.

I believe we should all move forward. Forget about the archaic game vanilla WoW was and work together to build upon our beloved World of Warcraft

That's another thing, "beloved World of Warcraft". WTF is that? Game changed so much it should be called WoW 2, or some other name. It's not the same game anymore. Certainly not a game for me. It's too casual.

I hate LFR.
I hate 4 raid difficulties.
I hate how easy the content is in general.
I hate the talent system.
I hate how epics are freakin everywhere.
I hate CRZ.
I hate zones scaling to my level.
I hate how dungeons are just an AOE spam-O-thon.
I hate pet battles.

That's modern WoW, and that's why I hate it. At least the reasons I can think of at the moment. But you know what doesn't have that? Vanilla WoW! Today's WoW is your beloved WoW, not mine. If Blizzard wanted to do all this nonesense to an MMO, then they should have just made a different game instead of ruining a perfectly good game. Call it Hello Kitty Warcraft or something, where the characters are all Chibi. It would fit the theme of game perfectly.

[Ehuehuecopter]

And standing in a capital city, asking in Trade Chat, over and over, looking for a tank or healer who wanted to join his group for <insert any dungeon here> is somehow better and not a lobby?

That is fun dude.

Like pegging.

[Traveler Voltin]

That is fun dude.

Like pegging.

Nope. Waiting 2 hours was never fun.

[Deleted]

[QUOTE=Dukenukemx;43555974]


That's another thing, "beloved World of Warcraft". WTF is that? Game changed so much it should be called WoW 2, or some other name. It's not the same game anymore. Certainly not a game for me. It's too casual.



Try to play in a guild who at least aim for be top 80 world, i bet you will change idea.

[Vash The Stampede]

Try to play in a guild who at least aim for be top 80 world, i bet you will change idea.

No it won't, cause I've done that most of my WoW carrier. I did that up until WoD. Before WoD was released I quit the game in anticipation that WoD was going to suck hard melons. Most of my guild which was Heroic now Mythic, thinks I was nuts. But the reason I don't want to do this anymore is because my gear looks no different than someone doing Normal or Heroic. Also, I have to do Normal and Heroic before I can enter Mythic. Which means my eyes have to see the same raid 3 times. Three times the farming, three times the bored. But at least I have the awesome gear right, to completely destroy my enemies? No, because of everyone crying that Heroic/Mythic raiders were destroying people in PvP gear in world PvP, the moment you touch someone you get nerfed. The benefits of raiding Heroic/Mythic raids is gone. Just bragging rights, which is not something I'm interested in. Oh and an achievement and maybe a mount. It's something right?

[Deleted]

I don't want to do this anymore is because my gear looks no different than someone doing Normal or Heroic.
[]

yea a 850itmlv item is the same of a 885 Kappa.

[Ehuehuecopter]

That's another thing, "beloved World of Warcraft". WTF is that? Game changed so much it should be called WoW 2, or some other name. It's not the same game anymore. Certainly not a game for me. It's too casual.

I hate LFR. Nobody Forcing You
I hate 4 raid difficulties.
I hate how easy the content is in general.
I hate the talent system. Cookie Build Vanilla =\= Much diversity
I hate how epics are freakin everywhere.
I hate CRZ. Would like to know why
I hate zones scaling to my level.Would like to know why
I hate how dungeons are just an AOE spam-O-thon.
I hate pet battles. Nobody Forcing You

That's modern WoW, and that's why I hate it. At least the reasons I can think of at the moment. But you know what doesn't have that? Vanilla WoW! Today's WoW is your beloved WoW, not mine. If Blizzard wanted to do all this nonesense to an MMO, then they should have just made a different game instead of ruining a perfectly good game. Call it Hello Kitty Warcraft or something, where the characters are all Chibi. It would fit the theme of game perfectly.

k.

/10chars

[Vash The Stampede]

yea a 850itmlv item is the same of a 885 Kappa.

Visually and mechanically.

I hate LFR. Nobody Forcing You

To get the legendary ring I had to. Because nobody was doing runs anymore for those raids.

I hate CRZ. Would like to know why

Because if someone ganks me on my alt, I want to know that I can still find the jerk on my main and kill him whenever I please. Plus it's stupid to make friends with someone from another realm, when I can't even do Mythics with them or their guild. Cause that's the reason you'd make friends with a person and a guild, so you can raid with them.

I hate pet battles. Nobody Forcing You

You're right, I'm not forced. It's just in my face all the time. Oh yea it's another week, lets see what quest I get for valor. Oh crap, it's pet battle week.

[Deleted]

Visually and mechanically.

Yep The same....to bad that mithic are 10times more detailed, whith unique animations and cooler color, check The warrior t17 then tell me if they are The same apart The name