Classic World of Warcraft Discussion [Megathread]

[Deleted]

So you are just going to act immature because you made a claim based entirely on your personal gripes with a system?

I like transmog. Me and my guild often have contests and themes for raids and such(we are a very special bunch). That being said I do definitely think it took away some prestige from wow. The part where you walk into town and see a fully mythic geared raider. That stuff used to motivate me. Visuals are very important in a game like wow. Transmog is very popular but overall I'm not fully convinced it was worth it

[voidillusion]

Oh, you mean these numbers?

Strange, seems like the vertical decline started a bit before that.

Not saying i do agree with the premisse that transmog caused any decline with subs, but you have to agree that if you pick that graph and use that argument in that fashion, you kind have to acept the same argument posed by some ppl that the introduction of LFG for example coincides with the start of a decline.

My point is, you can't use the same graph to state that a feature isn't responsible for a decline because it started declining before, and then again dismiss ppl that actually show that a introduction of a feature totally coincides with a downwards trend.

[Eleccybubb]

I like transmog. Me and my guild often have contests and themes for raids and such(we are a very special bunch). That being said I do definitely think it took away some prestige from wow. The part where you walk into town and see a fully mythic geared raider. That stuff used to motivate me. Visuals are very important in a game like wow. Transmog is very popular but overall I'm not fully convinced it was worth it

But you aren't going around stating nonsense like it was a primary cause of sub loss. Also I still felt the prestige of my full Mythic Tier in Siege or Throne of Thunder.

[Deleted]

Oh, you mean these numbers?


Strange, seems like the vertical decline started a bit before that.



No worries, it's what a lot of people do when people call out on their fallacies.



Your inaccuracies are giving me infinite ammo, thanks.

Okay first of all I want to thank you for finally trying to make a discussion and counter my arguments - thats nice, Elecybubby was not capable of that since like 3 weeks.

Okay so now my turn

1. Should you have read my previous posts you would knew that I first stated that the subs BEGAN to drop after Wrath was cleared, then went up when Cata released and eventually sinked when transmog was introduced. This is all on the diagram you posted! So here is my total argument:

1) first they started their politics that everybody has to see everything during wrath - people go insane, the expansion is great, but then the content gets cleared very fast and there comes the first draught. Eventually people start noticing that while it was a great thing to feel epic without a lot of effort, its not the same anymore. Then comes LFD and... we all know what.

2) Cataclysm comes and people are excited about the revamp of old zones. Even I come back to wow and do a lot of quests and zones - im impressed. Eventually I come to a feeling of emptiness after making like 40 lvls on just one day of game (I was sick that day). The subs drop because the expansion cant handle peoples progress. LFR at the end gives the sub drop another kick :P

3) Blizzard caves to demands of casuals that they want to look cool - gives them transmog which eventially sinks the sinking ship. The subs never get up from this (!). Look at the diagram. They never got up. That was the last blow to this game as an RPG.

[Deleted]

But you aren't going around stating nonsense like it was a primary cause of sub loss. Also I still felt the prestige of my full Mythic Tier in Siege or Throne of Thunder.

True.

To be perfectly honest it's the same way with mythic plus dungeons and the way items work today. I like them, but not having a clear progressions path for gearing up. I'm not sure that's going to be a good thing going forward

[MasterHamster]

Not saying i do agree with the premisse that transmog caused any decline with subs, but you have to agree that if you pick that graph and use that argument in that fashion, you kind have to acept the same argument posed by some ppl that the introduction of LFG for example coincides with the start of a decline.

Uh no, no I do not. I'm using the graph to point out that subs began to dwindle partially or significantly long before the release of transmog. The fact that it's pure idiocy to use sub numbers to argue whether individual additions or removals from the game was beneficial or not, is a whole 'other matter.

My point is, you can't use the same graph to state that a feature isn't responsible for a decline because it started declining before, and then again dismiss ppl that actually show that a introduction of a feature totally coincides with a downwards trend.

I haven't even been arguing about it in this thread so I have no idea why you're even bringing it up.
But no, I don't give credit to people using sub graphs to prove effects of individual additions being bad for the game as a whole. My use of the chart does not fall within the same fallacy as correlation/causation.

And what people that use sub numbers in this fashion fails to consider over and over, is time. To them they can use sub numbers as an accurate indicator.

Fact is that WoWs subs numbers follows a perfectly expected bell curve. It took years but finally the hype wore off, and people leaving overcame new players. WoW was already 5 years old at the time of WotLK release. The factors that caused the eventual decline is as numerous as people can think of.

[Teri]

Blizzard will never create a Legacy server. At least not one that is reproduced accurately.

Nobody, not even blizzard will be able to 100% simulate the vanilla period from 1.1.0 to 1.12.3 so I agree, even if blizz makes something it will be different.

Basicly some parts of vanilla were a huge beta test in itself, spells/items/quests and systems were added/changed/removed more then ever since.

I played it, and even the so called 5 man content went through so many iterations of tuning, loot changes, player size changes it's impossible to remake.

[voidillusion]

I haven't even been arguing about it in this thread so I have no idea why you're even bringing it up.

It's been a recurring subject, just that, not implying in any way that you stated that.

[Deleted]

Nobody, not even blizzard will be able to 100% simulate the vanilla period from 1.1.0 to 1.12.3 so I agree, even if blizz makes something it will be different.

Basicly some parts of vanilla were a huge beta test in itself, spells/items/quests and systems were added/changed/removed more then ever since.

I played it, and even the so called 5 man content went through so many iterations of tuning, loot changes, player size changes it's impossible to remake.

If blizzard remade vanilla it would have a very different form of tuning then it did back then aswell. That would definately take some of the charm away from it

[Ielenia]

Not saying i do agree with the premisse that transmog caused any decline with subs, but you have to agree that if you pick that graph and use that argument in that fashion, you kind have to acept the same argument posed by some ppl that the introduction of LFG for example coincides with the start of a decline.

No, it didn't. The introduction of the Dungeon Finder tool as we know today was introduced December 8, 2009. and if we look at around that date on the graph, what do we see? An increase in the subscription count. So, no, saying that LFG "coincides with the start of the decline" is false.

My point is, you can't use the same graph to state that a feature isn't responsible for a decline because it started declining before, and then again dismiss ppl that actually show that a introduction of a feature totally coincides with a downwards trend.

You can, because the latter premise (about LFG) is false.

[Deleted]

No, it didn't. The introduction of the Dungeon Finder tool as we know today was introduced December 8, 2009. and if we look at around that date on the graph, what do we see? An increase in the subscription count. So, no, saying that LFG "coincides with the start of the decline" is false.


You can, because the latter premise (about LFG) is false.

This is not false, those are facts. And I think that the numbers do represent a lot. Not everything, but a lot.

It's like situation when new expansion is released. I quit wow after few months of cata, still returned on pandaria, still quit, then draenor, still quit and now I quit again. So have all my friend who played the game. People get excited about something huge and that is when the subs go up. I'm sure that a lot of people go excited about transmog.

And I havent said anywhere that transmog alone is responsible for the sub losses. It killed the game combined with LFD, LFR and fast leveling. Transmog was just a climax point, a nail in the coffin after which the game never got up.

[Deleted]

Right back at you man. You clearly don't have a clue on what MMORPG is. Telling me that prestige lies in different phaes and stuf like that makes me laugh.

Also, you can tell yourself whatever you want, the subbs went down after transmog (before getting up for a little while) and never came back. Tell those numbers that they lie and laugh at them - you won't change the facts.

RPG is RPG. Even blizzard knew the difference and we have Diablo which is a hack'n'slash game with multiplayer aspects. Well guess what? the same is WoW today.

Again, you can laugh to yourself as long as you want while this game goes to slowly to dust. The facts are the game grew the most during the old times and began to slow after being dumbed down.

Are you for real? Sub decline because of transmog, really? You are speaking of the only thing besides mount and pet drops implemented in outdated content which makes people actually use this outdated content, because they are not quite able to make such content relevant in game terms for real (no, TW events don't count much, because their loot is pretty much irrelevant for end game).

Character customisation is very important in an RPG. Transmog allows you to keep your favorite look throughout chaging gear, because Blizzard is clearly too dumb to be able to offer stat progression separate from look progression. If you roleplay as a crusader paladin, you can show off your T2 even in battling Deathwing, although T2 is really outdated with its stats at that point in the game.

[Deleted]

you clearly don't know what RPG is.

This is not a barbie doll game. At least it was not a barbie doll game but you people dumbed it down to this point

[Eleccybubb]

you clearly don't know what RPG is.

This is not a barbie doll game. At least it was not a barbie doll game but you people dumbed it down to this point

By your logic now the majority of MMOs have adopted it they are "barbie doll games". Also changing your gears appearance does not suddenly affect the genre of game.

[MasterHamster]

Okay so now my turn

1. Should you have read my previous posts you would knew that I first stated that the subs BEGAN to drop after Wrath was cleared, then went up when Cata released and eventually sinked when transmog was introduced. This is all on the diagram you posted! So here is my total argument:

1) first they started their politics that everybody has to see everything during wrath - people go insane, the expansion is great, but then the content gets cleared very fast and there comes the first draught. Eventually people start noticing that while it was a great thing to feel epic without a lot of effort, its not the same anymore. Then comes LFD and... we all know what.

Yes, as WoW has grown it has gone on a path that very much has focused on accessibility without much heed taken to the psychological effects. I think something very important was lost as the game transitioned more and more into the realms of "Only one raid relevant at a time". It took away the feel of working towards something. Few things motivated my old raid groups more than getting geared enough for the next raid. But somewhere LK-Cata it was more important to get every max level character into a raid no matter the consequences to the game's longevity as a whole.

2) Cataclysm comes and people are excited about the revamp of old zones. Even I come back to wow and do a lot of quests and zones - im impressed. Eventually I come to a feeling of emptiness after making like 40 lvls on just one day of game (I was sick that day). The subs drop because the expansion cant handle peoples progress. LFR at the end gives the sub drop another kick :P

Quite a disconnected issue, but there's no doubt that leveling has suffered due to many years of snowball-effects. Todays level 25s can do higher dps than we used to do in Molten Core. And the speed of getting levels made each ding feel less and less significant.

3) Blizzard caves to demands of casuals that they want to look cool - gives them transmog which eventially sinks the sinking ship. The subs never get up from this (!). Look at the diagram. They never got up. That was the last blow to this game as an RPG.

I don't think there ever was much of a push of casuals asking to look cool? But being able to change your gear visuals... to gear you have obtained (prestige?) and avoid looking like a BC clown. There are so many factors in why the game declines, many completely unavoidable, and I think pointing out a visual customization feature as the bad guy is... absurd. When people argue that LFG "killed the game", they talk about server communities, people interacting, forming bonds instead of just being put in a group with 4 randoms that say hi and kthxbai. And there are some logic here, but this is also connected to an endless interconnected web of factors.

For example, dungeons became very easy to clear, due to for example, raid gear from factions, the Emblem system, more accessible raids thanks to difficultys which also meant "necessary" communication to cease.

Point being, that it is impossible to point at a single feature and say it was significant in of itself. When looking back at WoD for example, I'd say a big portion of the designs made perfect sense, and players were happy about them when discussed individually. But put together it created apathy. So from this prestige viewpoint you speak of, yes I can see how it comes together, but being able to visually change your gear is not the culprit. Accessibility is probably more likely to be what you think caused the decline.

[Teri]

I think the drop of 4.3.0 is more due to the addition of raid finder then because of transmog, that's just silly to say.

Raid finder gave the game just got another layer of cross realm random content added, another striking blow to server identity.

[Eleccybubb]

I think the drop of 4.3.0 is more due to the addition of raid finder then because of transmog, that's just silly to say.

Raid finder gave the game just got another layer of cross realm random content added, another striking blow to server identity.

Of course it is silly to say. People have got to shit on retail in some way and at this point it's getting desperate.

[Deficineiron]

Nobody, not even blizzard will be able to 100% simulate the vanilla period from 1.1.0 to 1.12.3 so I agree, even if blizz makes something it will be different.

Basicly some parts of vanilla were a huge beta test in itself, spells/items/quests and systems were added/changed/removed more then ever since.

I played it, and even the so called 5 man content went through so many iterations of tuning, loot changes, player size changes it's impossible to remake.

i thikn the majority of the people actually asking for legacy servers understand it is likely they at best will get a single game version, most likely 1.12. the posts about 'what version and updates' seem mainly to be from people that actualy are opposed to the whole proposal.

[Eleccybubb]

Okay first of all I want to thank you for finally trying to make a discussion and counter my arguments - thats nice, Elecybubby was not capable of that since like 3 weeks.

Yeah sorry I don't take you seriously when you say Transmog was "the final nail in the coffin" or other garbage. But sure keep on with the petulant insults. I'd happily compare you to the guy at this point who was running around spouting "I know the devs and they told me this is gonna happen". If anything your arguments actually hurt the Pro Legacy crowd when you spout things like Transmog being the final nail in the coffin. Just like that guy who was going full zealot mode and stating "vanilla was great and I say so because it was a fact". Vanilla had plenty of flaws and so did Retail.

[Zoneseek]

You are speaking solely through a player's perspective, which is both useless and meaningless when we're talking about setting up servers.

Uh, no I wasn't. When did I give off that impression?