1. #37501
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanelis View Post
    Here again you fail at understanding what I m saying. Whatever you do you won't be able to convince someone who want and can play vanilla that vanilla is crappy, because it is a highly subjective matter. If someone is saying that he feels exploration is better in vanilla than in hello kitty online, you have no right stating that he is wrong, because it is a subjective matter.
    Woah woah woah. Don't fuck with Hello Kitty Online. That's just going too far!

  2. #37502
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    It doesn't matter. You can't have a pragmatic view on this subject. You're either pro- or anti-. And once you've picked your side, forum logic dictates that you must argue your point until the opposing party either concedes or gets upset enough to flame you, get infracted and decide to leave the discussion. (See also: Winning an argument on the internet.)
    Maybe that's where the problem lies you see.

    On 1 "side" you have a group of ppl confortably playing the game they want to play and for them this is just "winning an argument". While on the other "side" you have a group of ppl that want to play a game that isn't available to them and "winning the argument" is kinda irrelevant.

    Some times a little bit of empathy goes a long way.

  3. #37503
    Quote Originally Posted by voidillusion View Post
    Maybe that's where the problem lies you see.

    On 1 "side" you have a group of ppl confortably playing the game they want to play and for them this is just "winning an argument". While on the other "side" you have a group of ppl that want to play a game that isn't available to them and "winning the argument" is kinda irrelevant.
    Now let's pretend those people who don't want to "win an argument" instead want to make the game that the former group is perfectly comfortable playing a miserable, completely conflicted and ultimately fragmented mess of a community, and we'll be close to understanding the full scope of the discussion. Oh, and we'll also pretend that the people who don't want to win this argument can't play a version of the game that's nearly identical for free.

  4. #37504
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Now let's pretend those people who don't want to "win an argument" instead want to make the game that the former group is perfectly comfortable playing a miserable, completely conflicted and ultimately fragmented mess of a community, and we'll be close to understanding the full scope of the discussion.
    It's a risk, i already aknowledge it and saw some other ppl doing the same, it is indeed a risk. But i already said in the past it may also be a golden oppurtunity to leave some remaining hassles from the past that still seem forced in the current game, dont you think?

  5. #37505
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Now let's pretend those people who don't want to "win an argument" instead want to make the game that the former group is perfectly comfortable playing a miserable, completely conflicted and ultimately fragmented mess of a community, and we'll be close to understanding the full scope of the discussion. Oh, and we'll also pretend that the people who don't want to win this argument can't play a version of the game that's nearly identical for free.
    "If Blizzard did legacy it would kill retail"

    You honestly feel this way?
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Damnit hubcap, you are such a retard.
    Seriously guys, this forum would be a better place if everyone just stopped acknowledging Zenkai. It's just demeaning to everyone.

  6. #37506
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    "If Blizzard did legacy it would kill retail"

    You honestly feel this way?
    Look at this forum. Read any topic. Look at how divisive everybody is about literally fucking everything. If you don't think something like Legacy won't cause major rifts in the community, potentially destroying entire guilds and ruining whatever tiny semblance of community is left, you're insane.

    Mind you, I don't think the idea of Legacy is flawed. It definitely deserves to be explored and I support it conceptually. But certainly not while Blizzard is providing updates for the retail version of the game. Legacy is something you add to a MMO to extend its lifecycle after you've shuttered its primary storyline. I personally don't see it happening for another expansion or two, potentially even more if Blizzard continues to make quality expansions using their current business model.
    Last edited by otaXephon; 2016-12-23 at 12:50 PM. Reason: a word

  7. #37507
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Look at this forum. Read any topic. Look at how divisive everybody is about literally fucking everything. If you don't think something like Legacy won't cause major rifts in the community, potentially destroying entire guilds and ruining whatever tiny semblance of community is left, you're insane.

    Mind you, I don't think the concept of Legacy is flawed. It definitely deserves to be explored and I support it conceptually. But certainly not while Blizzard is providing updates for the retail version of the game. Legacy is something you add to a MMO to extend its lifecycle after you've shuttered its primary storyline. I personally don't see it happening for another expansion or two, potentially even more if Blizzard continues to make quality expansions using their current business model.
    Personally I'd say that ship has sailed re: community; but maybe things were turning around in legion.

    Anyway I thought the idea was that it was sought by such a tiny number of people; how is that going to meaningfully impact on the millions currently playing in a manner compared with "no flying" or "split raids" or "CRZ" which affected the millions directly?
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Damnit hubcap, you are such a retard.
    Seriously guys, this forum would be a better place if everyone just stopped acknowledging Zenkai. It's just demeaning to everyone.

  8. #37508
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanelis View Post
    Here again you fail at understanding what I m saying. Whatever you do you won't be able to convince someone who want and can play vanilla that vanilla is crappy, because it is a highly subjective matter.
    Again, I initially meant it as a joke, but now I'm seriously doubting your reading comprehension skills. When have I ever said, recently, that "retail is better than vanilla" or that "vanilla is crappy"? I haven't.

    If someone is saying that he feels exploration is better in vanilla than in hello kitty online, you have no right stating that he is wrong, because it is a subjective matter.
    You don't understand. There's no point in "finding wonder" in something you've "explored" a thousand times over. Nothing can re-capture whatever feelings you felt when you made your first character in WoW and set your first step in Elwynn Forest/Durotar/Dun Morogh/Mulgore or even in Eversong Woods/Azuremyst Isle/Gilneas/Kezan. Re-releasing those places as they were back then won't do it, either. "Exploration" implies uncovering an unfamiliar area, and, honestly, what's "unfamiliar" about any of WoW's zones to the veteran player?

    If someone wants to watch movies shot in the 60s because that particular someone feels they had something modern movies don't have, you just cannot expect so called "arguments" to change his/her heart.
    Reading comprehension: you really lack it. First off: I'm not trying to convince anybody that liking vanilla is wrong. Second: your analogy would make more sense if said someone argues that the reason movies from the 60's are better is because of the "magic" of seeing them for the first time, when he has watched those movies already.

    Well actually trends show people started to bail out from the game when they ruined the battle system at 3.0.
    The "battle system" had no changes at all at 3.0. All Wrath did was add the Death Knights into the mix. New talent trees came with MoP (which was 5.0) and the stat squish came in WoD (which was 6.0)
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    Update 08/17: I changed how the Bone spec's golem mechanic works, as well as some other minor changes.
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!
    Update 09/02: Apparently the mods decided to merge my class concept thread with an existing one.

  9. #37509
    Quote Originally Posted by Packers01 View Post
    For shits and grins, if blizzard would release a legacy server how do you think they would do it? One PVE/PVP/RP vanilla realm for example?
    Looking at the demand on some pservers i don't think that would be enough. Something along the lines of 2xPVE and 4xPVP to start with and increase on demand. That's my opinion at least.

  10. #37510
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Look at this forum. Read any topic. Look at how divisive everybody is about literally fucking everything. If you don't think something like Legacy won't cause major rifts in the community, potentially destroying entire guilds and ruining whatever tiny semblance of community is left, you're insane.

    Mind you, I don't think the idea of Legacy is flawed. It definitely deserves to be explored and I support it conceptually. But certainly not while Blizzard is providing updates for the retail version of the game. Legacy is something you add to a MMO to extend its lifecycle after you've shuttered its primary storyline. I personally don't see it happening for another expansion or two, potentially even more if Blizzard continues to make quality expansions using their current business model.
    So we don't have very long, then? :P

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by voidillusion View Post
    Looking at the demand on some pservers i don't think that would be enough. Something along the lines of 2xPVE and 4xPVP to start with and increase on demand. That's my opinion at least.
    Elysium is currently utterly swamped on their PvP and PvE servers.
    [Kawaii c@girl IRL]

  11. #37511
    Quote Originally Posted by Sosoulsu View Post
    So we don't have very long, then? :P

    - - - Updated - - -



    Elysium is currently utterly swamped on their PvP and PvE servers.
    Pve not so much, the population only started increasing there because the PVP one is always packed. First few days it was something like 6k on PVE and 12k on pvp at least during my prime time.

  12. #37512
    Legendary! Deficineiron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    It doesn't matter. You can't have a pragmatic view on this subject. You're either pro- or anti-. And once you've picked your side, forum logic dictates that you must argue your point until the opposing party either concedes or gets upset enough to flame you, get infracted and decide to leave the discussion. (See also: Winning an argument on the internet.)
    Actually Forum Logic is fully on the side of the people who content any claim to allegedly like an older version of the game pre-4.0 is nostalgia. Forum logic also clarifies that this cannot be extrapolated to other games or similar non-game situations, it is only for wow and only for pre-4.0 'like more' claims. Don't make the mistake of assuming forum logic isn't non-euclidean.

    And don't bring up the tired example of the original star wars vs either the phantom menace (clearly superior in every way, and had the most technologically advanced character ever (jarjar)) or the lucas re-cgi's of the original movie (also clearly superior in every sense). No one who claims to like the original star wars more can be taken as anything other than severely afflicted with nostalgia and needing some attention from the heroes here
    Last edited by Deficineiron; 2016-12-23 at 12:58 PM.
    Authors I have enjoyed enough to mention here: JRR Tolkein, Poul Anderson,Jack Vance, Gene Wolfe, Glen Cook, Brian Stableford, MAR Barker, Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, WM Hodgson, Fredrick Brown, Robert SheckleyJohn Steakley, Joe Abercrombie, Robert Silverberg, the norse sagas, CJ Cherryh, PG Wodehouse, Clark Ashton Smith, Alastair Reynolds, Cordwainer Smith, LE Modesitt, L. Sprague de Camp & Fletcher Pratt, Stephen R Donaldon, and Jack L Chalker.

  13. #37513
    Quote Originally Posted by Packers01 View Post
    Okay, so now that pandora's box is open and we have this, where is my BC server? Where is the wrath server many people would want? An RP realm? EU? You see how this gets out of hand fast and suddenly this little project starts to sucks resources out current wow.

    - - - Updated - - -



    What is swamped?
    It isn't any pandora box, for me it isnt at least, i thought you were refering to vanilla only, because for me it's a given, looking at the several thousands playin on LK servers for example that if blizzard opens vanilla, they "have" to do it for other expansions where the
    demand also exists.

    swamped is opening up with only 2 servers and having 3k+ queues at times.

  14. #37514
    Quote Originally Posted by Sosoulsu View Post
    So we don't have very long, then? :P
    Perhaps. Legion looks to have been fairly successful so it doesn't seem as if Blizzard is willing to give up on the WoW gravy train just yet.

    Further, while I'm often accused of being an anti-Legacy retail loving Blizzdrone, the truth is that I'm not even actively playing WoW currently. I don't think Legion was a step in the right direction (for the way I want to play the game) but I don't care enough about the old versions of WoW to support them either. I do, however, find irritation in poor argumentation in favor of Legacy so that's part of the reason I've remained active in this thread.

  15. #37515
    Legendary! Deficineiron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voidillusion View Post
    Looking at the demand on some pservers i don't think that would be enough. Something along the lines of 2xPVE and 4xPVP to start with and increase on demand. That's my opinion at least.
    exponentially higher. they might need to start also with a clear disclaimer that they WILL merger servers if needed, unlike their policy on retail all these years.

    the only real downside to such a policy is it would decrease xfer revenue - the most likely suggested reason they never merged retail servers.
    Authors I have enjoyed enough to mention here: JRR Tolkein, Poul Anderson,Jack Vance, Gene Wolfe, Glen Cook, Brian Stableford, MAR Barker, Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, WM Hodgson, Fredrick Brown, Robert SheckleyJohn Steakley, Joe Abercrombie, Robert Silverberg, the norse sagas, CJ Cherryh, PG Wodehouse, Clark Ashton Smith, Alastair Reynolds, Cordwainer Smith, LE Modesitt, L. Sprague de Camp & Fletcher Pratt, Stephen R Donaldon, and Jack L Chalker.

  16. #37516
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post


    You don't understand. There's no point in "finding wonder" in something you've "explored" a thousand times over. Nothing can re-capture whatever feelings you felt when you made your first character in WoW and set your first step in Elwynn Forest/Durotar/Dun Morogh/Mulgore or even in Eversong Woods/Azuremyst Isle/Gilneas/Kezan. Re-releasing those places as they were back then won't do it, either. "Exploration" implies uncovering an unfamiliar area, and, honestly, what's "unfamiliar" about any of WoW's zones to the veteran player?


    Reading comprehension: you really lack it. First off: I'm not trying to convince anybody that liking vanilla is wrong. Second: your analogy would make more sense if said someone argues that the reason movies from the 60's are better is because of the "magic" of seeing them for the first time, when he has watched those movies already.


    The "battle system" had no changes at all at 3.0. All Wrath did was add the Death Knights into the mix. New talent trees came with MoP (which was 5.0) and the stat squish came in WoD (which was 6.0)
    1- How do you know that ? Are you in other people's head ? If some people can relive what they felt in wow vanilla when they first played it, I d like to say it is good for them. But it is not for you (or blizzard) to state it is impossible.
    2- The battle system did change in 3.0. It was the beginning of the "bring the player not the class" nonsense, class homogeneization and modification of the system to make the game more AOE reliant (be it in tanking, DPS and healing).

    Now let's pretend those people who don't want to "win an argument" instead want to make the game that the former group is perfectly comfortable playing a miserable, completely conflicted and ultimately fragmented mess of a community, and we'll be close to understanding the full scope of the discussion.
    Sometimes it is very important to know when to stop. Because what you re saying doesn't make any sense at all. Especially when people here advocate for an official wow classic server with a subscription fee.
    Last edited by mmoc18e6a734ba; 2016-12-23 at 01:46 PM.

  17. #37517
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanelis View Post
    1- How do you know that ? Are you in other people's head ? If some people can relive what they felt in wow vanilla when they first played it, I d like to say it is good for them. But it is not for you (or blizzard) to state it is impossible.
    It is impossible, because you already know what's in there. You already know what's coming. You already know what to expect. It is impossible to recreate such a feeling of "first time" unless it is a 'first time' again, so unless those players are somehow either lobotomizing themselves to forget everything they know about WoW, or actually have some mental condition that causes them to forget huge chunks of their lives... that feeling isn't returning. Ever.

    2- The battle system did change in 3.0. It was the beginning of the "bring the player not the class" nonsense, class homogeneization and modification of the system to make the game more AOE reliant (be it in tanking, DPS and healing).
    The changes were minimal. Barely noticeable. Otherwise you can say that the 'battle system' did change with BC already, when paladins were allowed in the Horde and Shamans in the Alliance. That was a much more noticeable change than what Wrath did.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    Update 08/17: I changed how the Bone spec's golem mechanic works, as well as some other minor changes.
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!
    Update 09/02: Apparently the mods decided to merge my class concept thread with an existing one.

  18. #37518
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It is impossible, because you already know what's in there. You already know what's coming. You already know what to expect. It is impossible to recreate such a feeling of "first time" unless it is a 'first time' again, so unless those players are somehow either lobotomizing themselves to forget everything they know about WoW, or actually have some mental condition that causes them to forget huge chunks of their lives... that feeling isn't returning. Ever.


    The changes were minimal. Barely noticeable. Otherwise you can say that the 'battle system' did change with BC already, when paladins were allowed in the Horde and Shamans in the Alliance. That was a much more noticeable change than what Wrath did.
    I can assure you they aren't minimal and every design issue blizzard had since WOTLK comes from the 3.0 change (including the class balance and design issues from legion). WOTLK was the beginning of the mass pull - mass AOE phenomena in dungeons and the loss of the core macro gameplay elements from the other expansions. What you weren't doing without coordination in TBC, vanilla, you were starting to do it very easily from WOTLK. That's also why naxx 25 was such an easy raid (it was designed with the older battle system in mind).

    People often say that wow vanilla and TBC are more 'tank n spanky' than modern wow. But what they are overlooking is that setting up a good tank n spank used to be much more difficult and required more coordination back in the day.

    It is impossible, because you already know what's in there. You already know what's coming. You already know what to expect. It is impossible to recreate such a feeling of "first time" unless it is a 'first time' again, so unless those players are somehow either lobotomizing themselves to forget everything they know about WoW, or actually have some mental condition that causes them to forget huge chunks of their lives... that feeling isn't returning. Ever.
    You think it is impossible, do not try to push your opinion as fact because you have no proofs whatsoever. You re not in other player's mind and if some people have a nostalgia trip playing vanilla, it's their right.

    Also, nostalgia isn't the only factor bringing players to ask for previous expansion of wow. It is a fact that current wow is very different from the older iteration of wow on a core design standpoint.
    Last edited by mmoc18e6a734ba; 2016-12-23 at 02:04 PM.

  19. #37519
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanelis View Post
    That's also why naxx 25 was such an easy raid (it was designed with the older battle system in mind).
    No, you're wrong. Naxxramas in Wrath was specifically designed to be easy for two reasons: one, it was an entry level raid; and two, because so very few people actually got to see it back in the day. As for your claim that it was designed with the older battle system in mind, you're, again, wrong, because several abilities were removed from the bosses and some reworked to be less severe.

    People often say that wow vanilla and TBC are more 'tank n spanky' than modern wow. But what they are overlooking is that setting up a good tank n spank used to be much more difficult and required more coordination back in the day.
    You're confusing mob damage and health to boss mob's abilities. Bosses in vanilla had very few abilities. Close to none when compared to bosses nowadays, which is why people say vanilla bosses were quite tank-n-spank, in comparison.

    You think it is impossible, do not try to push your opinion as fact because you have no proofs whatsoever. You re not in other player's mind and if some people have a nostalgia trip playing vanilla, it's their right.
    One: it is a fact. Why do you think the expression "ruining the surprise" exists? And two: having a 'nostalgia trip' is not the same thing as the "seeing the game for the first time" thing. At best, it's a "poor man's substitute". A very poor man's. Say what you want, but you'll never feel like the time you started the game for the very first time.

    Also, nostalgia isn't the only factor bringing players to ask for previous expansion of wow. It is a fact that current wow is very different from the older iteration of wow on a core design standpoint.
    I don't recall claiming it ever was, so I don't know why did you decide to bring up such a moot point. Then again, reading comprehension isn't your forte, is it?
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    Update 08/17: I changed how the Bone spec's golem mechanic works, as well as some other minor changes.
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!
    Update 09/02: Apparently the mods decided to merge my class concept thread with an existing one.

  20. #37520
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanelis View Post
    I can assure you they aren't minimal and every design issue blizzard had since WOTLK comes from the 3.0 change (including the class balance and design issues from legion). WOTLK was the beginning of the mass pull - mass AOE phenomena in dungeons and the loss of the core macro gameplay elements from the other expansions. What you weren't doing without coordination in TBC, vanilla, you were starting to do it very easily from WOTLK
    I would blame this on Heirlooms more than class design.

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