WOLCEN : Lords of Mayhem (Indie ARPG)

[Wildmoon]

Compared to what?

Buying the base game for $60 and then paying $30 or whatever every few months for an expansion/DLC? Because that's the alternative (or having nothing at all).

You don't get stuff for free. SOMEONE needs to pay for it SOMEHOW.

PoE's skins cost like a full game. They purposefully made you look like pleb too without buying myx.

[Onikaroshi]

That is so odd. Heck a country like Thailand has better internet connection than the US.

The issue is at least 2 fold.

Companies holding monopolies on many areas (where my parents live the only decent internet they can get is Spectrum, all other options are either slow as shit DSL or satellite) and just sheer landmass. The US is 3.797 million square miles, your example of Thailand is 198,117 square miles, less than the size of the state of Texas, which do you think is easier to cover in Cable?

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PoE's skins cost like a full game. They purposefully made you look like pleb too without buying myx.

PoE skins aren't made to be bought flat out, if you just buy points they're expensive as fuck.

If you buy a supporter pack however you can get a large amount of things:

Full set of armor
A Soundtrack
Weapon effect
Portraits
Apparitions/Portals/hideouts
enough points to buy a bunch of other stuff

waiting for a sale, off one supporter pack, you can get all the shit in the pack plus all the special stash tabs you might want. It's still expensive, but not horrible. Most of the game is played solo anyway, so it's not like you need any of it.

[Baconeggcheese]

Compared to what?

Buying the base game for $60 and then paying $30 or whatever every few months for an expansion/DLC? Because that's the alternative (or having nothing at all).

You don't get stuff for free. SOMEONE needs to pay for it SOMEHOW.

MHW dropped for 60, was on sale all the time, and still had a year and a half worth of regular content updates for free with minimal mtx for silly emotes and stickers that cost around 3$. They then released an xpac round 2 years later for 40$ that is also getting regular free content updates for the foreseeable future as they always have.

Thats the kind of developer that should be getting praised. PoEs shop is one of the most egregious Ive seen only to be rivaled by the likes of nexon games.

It really blows my mind every time that people defend PoEs shop when theyre doing every shitty practice short of outright pay 2 win at astronomical prices.

I think PoE has the potential to be one of the most damaging games for the community with the precedent its setting. Tyreal forbid that garbage shop finds its way to D4 and other future ARPGs.

[Onikaroshi]

MHW dropped for 60, was on sale all the time, and still had a year and a half worth of regular content updates for free with minimal mtx for silly emotes and stickers that cost around 3$. They then released an xpac round 2 years later for 40$ that is also getting regular free content updates for the foreseeable future as they always have.

Thats the kind of developer that should be getting praised. PoEs shop is one of the most egregious Ive seen only to be rivaled by the likes of nexon games.

It really blows my mind every time that people defend PoEs shop when theyre doing every shitty practice short of outright pay 2 win at astronomical prices.

I think PoE has the potential to be one of the most damaging games for the community with the precedent its setting. Tyreal forbid that garbage shop finds its way to D4 and other future ARPGs.

Mhw isn't some angel, it has 288 bucks worth of mtx, in a paid game.

And you're trying to say that optional mtx in a free game is some death to the arpg industry.

If you buy one supporter pack every year or two its no different than any paid game.

[Beastiel]

I think PoE has the potential to be one of the most damaging games for the community with the precedent its setting. Tyreal forbid that garbage shop finds its way to D4 and other future ARPGs.

Imagine actually unironically thinking diablo 4 is going to be good

[Onikaroshi]

Imagine actually unironically thinking diablo 4 is going to be good

Imagine hating a game that isn't going to be out for at least 2 years and hasn't even started alpha yet

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Imagine actually unironically thinking diablo 4 is going to be good

Presuming its going to be bad is stupid as there's not much info to gather on it so this post is stupid.

[Wildmoon]

Imagine actually unironically thinking diablo 4 is going to be good

You are likely a fanboy of PoE. It's fine. They can coexist. He didnt say anything about D4 being good or bad. No one knows.

[FlubberPuddy]

Mhw isn't some angel, it has 288 bucks worth of mtx, in a paid game.

And you're trying to say that optional mtx in a free game is some death to the arpg industry.

If you buy one supporter pack every year or two its no different than any paid game.

Also weird to say MHW gets free regular content updates when the vast majority of PoE players get free regular content updates due to others purchasing mtx stuffs. Even new players to the game, whereas MHW has that pay barrier up front.

I think optional mtx is good for games like these, especially if they follow Wolcen's example where the in-game obtainable armor looks great and there's already an in-game dye/tmog system where every look looted is put into your collection.

Like D3 feels abandoned to me (even if it may not be, just seems that way) and it's kept me from purchasing the game (I have tried its demo and didn't grab me like Wolcen/PoE).

Knowing that Wolcen and/or PoE will continue getting updated due to mtx is great because more content for the games I'm enjoying.

And it's much better than WoW's method, where we pay so incredibly much to play and can end up with lame-o content for huge swaths of time.

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You are likely a fanboy of PoE. It's fine. They can coexist. He didnt say anything about D4 being good or bad. No one knows.

I hope it is good, as I think with d4 they're opening up more dialogue between the players and they've already made some changes with some of their itemization I think. Haven't kept up too much with it but seeing that sort of conversation between developer and its players is really good imo.

I think that kind of communication is necessary in these sorts of online games, WoW developers should take note. Any kind of GaaS games should.

[Bugg]

Was this game made by a team of 40? I've read/heard this, but it sounds incredible.

[Onikaroshi]

Was this game made by a team of 40? I've read/heard this, but it sounds incredible.

39 according to their linkedin page

[kaelix1]

Not bad, I see potential in this game, but as now I don't recommend people buying this, too many bugs, the game should still have the beta tag, I decided to keep the game and not get a refund as I see potential, overall I would give this game 3.5/10 and wait for the future updates and fixes, i will stick with d3 as my arpg game

[Wildmoon]

Not bad, I see potential in this game, but as now I don't recommend people buying this, too many bugs, the game should still have the beta tag, I decided to keep the game and not get a refund as I see potential, overall I would give this game 3.5/10 and wait for the future updates and fixes, i will stick with d3 as my arpg game

3.5/10 is a daed gaem score. lol

[Onikaroshi]

3.5/10 is a daed gaem score. lol

I'd say the metacritic scores of about 70 is more accurate, it's a good base but needs it's issues fixed. Fixed the issues and you easily have a mid 80s game.

[Baconeggcheese]

Mhw isn't some angel, it has 288 bucks worth of mtx, in a paid game.

I feel like you didn't even attempt to understand the context... nor did you bother to look at what the DLC is since that number includes things like the expansion or different amounts of the same thing...

And you're trying to say that optional mtx in a free game is some death to the arpg industry.

Can you show me where I said that?

If you buy one supporter pack every year or two its no different than any paid game.

I get way the shit more for my money out of other paid games.

[Onikaroshi]

I feel like you didn't even attempt to understand the context... nor did you bother to look at what the DLC is since that number includes things like the expansion or different amounts of the same thing...

Take 40 bucks out for Iceborne sure, but it's still 248 bucks of cosmetic shit (or character change vouchers) so it's no angel considering it's a PAID game. I'm not saying anything is wrong with cosmetic MTX, but there's definitely a lot there.

Can you show me where I said that?

"I think PoE has the potential to be one of the most damaging games for the community with the precedent its setting."

Yes, I took it to an extreme, but what you said is very doomsayerish. If anything PoE is considered one of the more fair arpgs on the market because:

I get way the shit more for my money out of other paid games.

I can pay nothing, put no money into it, and get equal or more than another game. PoE is a very full, free to play game, with constant updating (more than most paid games), and i could have played from day one, til now, and not spent a single penny. So yea, I don't mind throwing them 60 bucks every year or two for the time and effort they put into the game. I don't really see it as any different than buying a paid game, except I can play with friends who can't afford things like MHW.

[Skorpionss]

Compared to what?

Buying the base game for $60 and then paying $30 or whatever every few months for an expansion/DLC? Because that's the alternative (or having nothing at all).

You don't get stuff for free. SOMEONE needs to pay for it SOMEHOW.

Yeah I would much rather buy the game and pay like 10-15$ for every season I wanna play, rather than have the best looking armor locked behind a paywall. I hate that business model with a passion. Cosmetics matter damn it and they shouldn't be locked behind paywalls.

[kail]

MHW dropped for 60, was on sale all the time, and still had a year and a half worth of regular content updates for free with minimal mtx for silly emotes and stickers that cost around 3$. They then released an xpac round 2 years later for 40$ that is also getting regular free content updates for the foreseeable future as they always have.

Thats the kind of developer that should be getting praised. PoEs shop is one of the most egregious Ive seen only to be rivaled by the likes of nexon games.

It really blows my mind every time that people defend PoEs shop when theyre doing every shitty practice short of outright pay 2 win at astronomical prices.

I think PoE has the potential to be one of the most damaging games for the community with the precedent its setting. Tyreal forbid that garbage shop finds its way to D4 and other future ARPGs.

You're ignoring that while others charge for content, PoE doesn't require a dime to play any update they make to the game. Sorry but I have to disagree that PoE implements one of the best F2P models that exist. My only complaint is that the game is somewhat "unplayable" without select stashes that do cost money, I feel the game makes enough on the cosmetics alone but this is only a logical hunch.

Outside of that it only sucks hard if you truly care about how you look instead of the high progression depth the game has. The fact that the game you set as an example has a cash shop speaks volumes that MTX are here to stay for just about every online game that exists. The only games that don't include MTXs to my memory are single player story/rpg games like Witcher and Obsidian games.

D4 will come with MTX, it's already confirmed. What maybe deserves more criticism is that D4 is not F2P but I frankly don't care about anything outside of power being sold for real money.

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Yeah I would much rather buy the game and pay like 10-15$ for every season I wanna play, rather than have the best looking armor locked behind a paywall. I hate that business model with a passion. Cosmetics matter damn it and they shouldn't be locked behind paywalls.

Set the same budget for cosmetics then. F2P without purchasable power is like a "pay what you want" model. You could pay a flat zero or $40 for something you do want. Those with less spending money can enjoy it as much as those that spend shit tons on entertainment.

[Baconeggcheese]

Take 40 bucks out for Iceborne sure, but it's still 248 bucks of cosmetic shit (or character change vouchers) so it's no angel considering it's a PAID game. I'm not saying anything is wrong with cosmetic MTX, but there's definitely a lot there.

Again... pay attention to the context of the conversation...

He asked "expensive compared to what?" MHW doesn't make you look like a level 1 RPG character in end game and hold all that shit back from you unless you drop the box price of a AAA game for a single armor set. MHW somehow manages to give free content that is more substantial than what PoE puts out every 3 months and does it without charging insane prices. Which was the point... if you were paying attention.

Also its more than just the xpac, there's packs in there like the character change vouchers which can be bought individually or in packs... which means you're seeing the price for multiple duplicates... Oh and even then these things go on much better sales than what GGG offers.

You're really comparing apples to bricks here acting like MHW's 2-4$ MTX which are silly stuff like emotes and stickers for chat are on the same level as PoE's 10$ shitty glow effects and 42 - 84$ armor sets. You wanna tally up PoE's MTX shop and compare if that's the standard you want to use? PoE already more than doubles it with the yearly supporter pack or the 8 league supporter packs per year alone.. add them shits together and you've now quadrupled the price of what's available in MHW's entire MTX shop... and that's not looking at anything else in PoE's shop which will easily add a few thousand more dollars...

But even more important is that MHW doesn't do ANY of the shit PoE does in their shop. MHW has its lil extra MTX that go up on that shop, there's no randomness to it, they're cheap AF, and they'll always be available to buy at some point.

PoE on the other hand...

If you don't drop 960$ a year on supporter packs then whatever you didn't buy is gone forever.

There's also shit that no one would be ok with in other games like loot boxes with a super shitty duplicate system... GGG expected people TO BUY MORE LOOT BOXES TO DEAL WITH DUPLICATES FROM PREVIOUSLY BOUGHT LOOT BOXES THAT COULD STILL GIVE YOU THE DUPLICATES YOU ALREADY HAVE. PLEASE DEFEND THIS.

You have to pay money for an item to hide items... as in you have to pay 5$ for literally nothing... Oh and its 5$ per slot if you want to hide things simultaneously.

If for some reason you ever want to transmog? Its payed and one time use... because that makes perfect sense in a game with leagues where those items are gone in a few months.

Oh and they regularly drop special effects for whatever skill is OP in a league, space it out so that the better one gets dropped a week or two later for the same skill... and then nerf the ever loving shit out of it to the point where its become a meme so people feel forced to play something else the next league... that they'll absolutely be putting out new special effects for.

All of which is priced insanely high. Its not even a comparison, PoE's MTX shop is HORRENDOUS and I'll never understand how they managed to brainwash people into defending it. Its a joke to pretend like MHW's shop is anything even remotely similar. You get SO MUCH MORE for your money even without buying it on sale.

"I think PoE has the potential to be one of the most damaging games for the community with the precedent its setting."

Yes, I took it to an extreme, but what you said is very doomsayerish. If anything PoE is considered one of the more fair arpgs on the market because:

It is a bit of doomsaying, because I'm concerned that other games even outside the ARPG genre are gonna try their hardest to figure out how they've managed to make people happy to drop tons of money on all the bullshit they normally scream bloody murder about in any other game and then apply that to their game.

Seriously, pretend for a millisecond that a dev under EA tried to do exactly what GGG is doing with PoE. Same cycle, F2P, Same MTX Shop to a T... people would lose their minds. It'd be the battlefront 2 outrage combined with the Anthem outrage and then multiplied by 10.

I can pay nothing, put no money into it, and get equal or more than another game. PoE is a very full, free to play game, with constant updating (more than most paid games), and i could have played from day one, til now, and not spent a single penny. So yea, I don't mind throwing them 60 bucks every year or two for the time and effort they put into the game. I don't really see it as any different than buying a paid game, except I can play with friends who can't afford things like MHW.

I'll never understand why people think that makes all the shit they do with their shop ok? This is far from the only F2P game on the market and I've never seen another get away with as much shit as PoE. Again, nexon is the only company I've personally experienced that beats GGG in bullshit shops and that's because nexon has pay 2 win in damn near everything. I've personally never seen another company do anything close to what GGG is getting away with and then have people defend it. Its insane.

Also if your friends can't afford 15$ (40 with the xpac) they've got bigger issues to worry about. And lord help them if they want to play PoE without spending a dime on stash tabs.

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Outside of that it only sucks hard if you truly care about how you look instead of the high progression depth the game has.

I can't begin to overstate just how much people care about cosmetics, you'd be naive to think otherwise. PoE would be out of business if people didn't care.. not to mention how many other games... or how many other just different companies in general since aesthetics are a massive trillion dollar industry across all aspects of our lives.

Again... one of those things I never understand why people try to underplay. How things look massively affects peoples enjoyment of games and things in general... there's a reason industry spends so much time and money specifically on how things look.

Including PoE for that matter... PoE 2 would be a fuck shit ton easier to put out if they weren't concerned with updating the graphics.

[Onikaroshi]

Again... pay attention to the context of the conversation...

He asked "expensive compared to what?" MHW doesn't make you look like a level 1 RPG character in end game and hold all that shit back from you unless you drop the box price of a AAA game for a single armor set. MHW somehow manages to give free content that is more substantial than what PoE puts out every 3 months and does it without charging insane prices. Which was the point... if you were paying attention.

Also its more than just the xpac, there's packs in there like the character change vouchers which can be bought individually or in packs... which means you're seeing the price for multiple duplicates... Oh and even then these things go on much better sales than what GGG offers.

You're really comparing apples to bricks here acting like MHW's 2-4$ MTX which are silly stuff like emotes and stickers for chat are on the same level as PoE's 10$ shitty glow effects and 42 - 84$ armor sets. You wanna tally up PoE's MTX shop and compare if that's the standard you want to use? PoE already more than doubles it with the yearly supporter pack or the 8 league supporter packs per year alone.. add them shits together and you've now quadrupled the price of what's available in MHW's entire MTX shop... and that's not looking at anything else in PoE's shop which will easily add a few thousand more dollars...

But even more important is that MHW doesn't do ANY of the shit PoE does in their shop. MHW has its lil extra MTX that go up on that shop, there's no randomness to it, they're cheap AF, and they'll always be available to buy at some point.

PoE on the other hand...

If you don't drop 960$ a year on supporter packs then whatever you didn't buy is gone forever.

There's also shit that no one would be ok with in other games like loot boxes with a super shitty duplicate system... GGG expected people TO BUY MORE LOOT BOXES TO DEAL WITH DUPLICATES FROM PREVIOUSLY BOUGHT LOOT BOXES THAT COULD STILL GIVE YOU THE DUPLICATES YOU ALREADY HAVE. PLEASE DEFEND THIS.

You have to pay money for an item to hide items... as in you have to pay 5$ for literally nothing... Oh and its 5$ per slot if you want to hide things simultaneously.

If for some reason you ever want to transmog? Its payed and one time use... because that makes perfect sense in a game with leagues where those items are gone in a few months.

Oh and they regularly drop special effects for whatever skill is OP in a league, space it out so that the better one gets dropped a week or two later for the same skill... and then nerf the ever loving shit out of it to the point where its become a meme so people feel forced to play something else the next league... that they'll absolutely be putting out new special effects for.

All of which is priced insanely high. Its not even a comparison, PoE's MTX shop is HORRENDOUS and I'll never understand how they managed to brainwash people into defending it. Its a joke to pretend like MHW's shop is anything even remotely similar. You get SO MUCH MORE for your money even without buying it on sale.


It is a bit of doomsaying, because I'm concerned that other games even outside the ARPG genre are gonna try their hardest to figure out how they've managed to make people happy to drop tons of money on all the bullshit they normally scream bloody murder about in any other game and then apply that to their game.

Seriously, pretend for a millisecond that a dev under EA tried to do exactly what GGG is doing with PoE. Same cycle, F2P, Same MTX Shop to a T... people would lose their minds. It'd be the battlefront 2 outrage combined with the Anthem outrage and then multiplied by 10.

I'll never understand why people think that makes all the shit they do with their shop ok? This is far from the only F2P game on the market and I've never seen another get away with as much shit as PoE. Again, nexon is the only company I've personally experienced that beats GGG in bullshit shops and that's because nexon has pay 2 win in damn near everything. I've personally never seen another company do anything close to what GGG is getting away with and then have people defend it. Its insane.

Also if your friends can't afford 15$ (40 with the xpac) they've got bigger issues to worry about. And lord help them if they want to play PoE without spending a dime on stash tabs.

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I can't begin to overstate just how much people care about cosmetics, you'd be naive to think otherwise. PoE would be out of business if people didn't care.. not to mention how many other games... or how many other just different companies in general since aesthetics are a massive trillion dollar industry.

Again... one of those things I never understand why people try to underplay. How things look massively affects peoples enjoyment of games and things in general... there's a reason industry spends so much time and money specifically on how things look.

Including PoE for that matter... PoE 2 would be a fuck shit ton easier to put out if they weren't concerned with updating the graphics.

I've played many many MANY F2P games over the years and Poe is one of the least worrying when it comes to the shop. Most sell power (God some are so bad about it). Only one I can think of off the top of my head that was decent was wildstars shop, and look how that turned out

But that's probably enough of that, we'll never see eye to eye, you value cosmetics more than me