1. #1

    Humans and Nature/Light

    I've been wondering, are humans, like the Draenei one of the few races with inherent connection to the Light since it was discovered by Lothar? Just as the Naaru have given the Draenei the blessing of the Light in their time of need, so too, in some fashion, did the Light come to the aid of humanity in their time of need. So... are we (humans) gifted with the Light's blessing innately, or is it like arcane magic which is completely random?

    Also, on the flip side, why is it humans have no connection to nature, despite their primitive origins? Why is shamanism and druidism foreign to them? Not in the sense of the Horde's versions of them, but in their own way. Look at the Pandaren who's shamans are channelers of elemental chi or the Goblins who control the elements through sheer magi-technical domination. Humans certainly have a stronger connection to the light than the elements and beast spirits, just as orcs have a stronger connection to the elements and beast spirits. However, Humans are "a dynamic and young race" that should be able to do just about anything, because human spirit is our greatest strength.

    Those are my 2 questions, I can't wait to hear what you guys have to say.

  2. #2
    Deleted
    Do you even now the Lore about Humans and Lights? The Light worshipping is far older than Lothar and Lothar didn't even believed in the Light, he was the Azeroth equivalent of an atheist.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Anchorite Jovinaal View Post
    I've been wondering, are humans, like the Draenei one of the few races with inherent connection to the Light since it was discovered by Lothar? Just as the Naaru have given the Draenei the blessing of the Light in their time of need, so too, in some fashion, did the Light come to the aid of humanity in their time of need. So... are we (humans) gifted with the Light's blessing innately, or is it like arcane magic which is completely random?

    Also, on the flip side, why is it humans have no connection to nature, despite their primitive origins? Why is shamanism and druidism foreign to them? Not in the sense of the Horde's versions of them, but in their own way. Look at the Pandaren who's shamans are channelers of elemental chi or the Goblins who control the elements through sheer magi-technical domination. Humans certainly have a stronger connection to the light than the elements and beast spirits, just as orcs have a stronger connection to the elements and beast spirits. However, Humans are "a dynamic and young race" that should be able to do just about anything, because human spirit is our greatest strength.

    Those are my 2 questions, I can't wait to hear what you guys have to say.
    Draenei are not one of the few races with an inherent connection to the Light. Every race, every person has an inherent connection to it. Draenei are, however, pretty much the only race whose culture revolves around honing and strengthening that connection. Now of course there are some individuals who do happen to be born with an affinity for it on the other hand.

    Humans learned about the Light the same way that Draenei did. From the Naaru. And I quote Chronicles.

    After the Troll Wars, a number of human priests began having faint visions and dreams of angelic beings, geometric forms that thrummed with living light. Although they did not know it, the priests had actually communed with the naaru in the Great Dark Beyond. Through this connection, the naaru guided the hearts of some humans and introduced them to the Holy Light. From their tenuous encounters with the naaru, the priests learned to harness the extraordinary healing effects of the Light. They also formed a religious movement founded on the tenets of justice, peace, and altruistic works. Popular among common folk, this movement flourished.

    BLIZZARD ENTERTAINMENT (2016-03-15). World of Warcraft: Chronicle Volume 1 (Kindle Locations 2615-2621). Dark Horse Comics. Kindle Edition.
    As for nature, nature worship is sort of a very minor thing among humans. The simple answer is that it is just simply not a part of their culture just like the Light is not a part of orc culture.

    Quote Originally Posted by M-Ra View Post
    Do you even now the Lore about Humans and Lights? The Light worshipping is far older than Lothar and Lothar didn't even believed in the Light, he was the Azeroth equivalent of an atheist.
    Gonna need a source for this. Nowhere in Tides of Darkness or the Last Guardian, which are really the only things that go into any notable detail about Lothar as a character, do it state that Lothar doesn't believe in the Light. He wasn't a practicing user of it sure, but all indications point to him being your average human that believed in the Light and took comfort from it.

    Believe is a poor word choice on your part anyway. To believe or not to believe in something is to accept or deny its very existence. The Light is very much a real thing that one can summon and wield and is regularly done so. Anybody who says "No I don't believe in the Light. It doesn't exist" needs to either get their head examined or stick around a group of Light-wielders for a while.
    Last edited by Erbel; 2016-04-20 at 12:35 AM.

  4. #4
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Erbel View Post
    Gonna need a source for this. Nowhere in Tides of Darkness or the Last Guardian, which are really the only things that go into any notable detail about Lothar as a character, do it state that Lothar doesn't believe in the Light. He wasn't a practicing user of it sure, but all indications point to him being your average human that believed in the Light and took comfort from it.

    Believe is a poor word choice on your part anyway. To believe or not to believe in something is to accept or deny its very existence. The Light is very much a real thing that one can summon and wield and is regularly done so. Anybody who says "No I don't believe in the Light. It doesn't exist" needs to either get their head examined or stick around a group of Light-wielders for a while.
    At first he doesn't trusted in the Idea of religious Warriors on his Side, he didn't believed that they could do the things that are needed to be done in war. The light is a fact on Azeroth and I think like everyone who isn't a Undead, Lothar thought that the Light and the Church are something good, but he seemed to be so irreligious a person who lives in this fantasy world can be. As far as I remember, he doesn't even used the typical phrases with the Light the humans use commonly.

    But the important thing is, he had nothing to do with the discovery of the Light. All he had to do with the light was giving his okay so Faol could form the Order of the Silver Hand, suggested one of his Knights from whom he knew that he was very religious as a member and taking a Paladin without Light Powers as his 2nd Man, because he seemed the least godly of them
    Last edited by mmocfbbaf337eb; 2016-04-20 at 12:43 AM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by M-Ra View Post
    At first he doesn't trusted in the Idea of religious Warriors on his Side, he didn't believed that they could do the things that are needed to be done in war. The light is a fact on Azeroth and I think like everyone who isn't a Undead, Lothar thought that the Light and the Church are something good, but he seemed to be so irreligious a person who lives in this fantasy world can be. As far as I remember, he doesn't even used the typical phrases with the Light the humans use commonly.

    But the important thing is, he had nothing to do with the discovery of the Light. All he had to do with the light was giving his okay so Faol could form the Order of the Silver Hand, suggested one of his Knights from whom he knew that he was very religious as a member and taking a Paladin without Light Powers as his 2nd Man, because he seemed the least godly of them
    None of that is solid evidence of him not being a follower of the Light. Also Khadgar was the one who said that he wasn't sure if the paladins were capable of doing things that need to be done. It's amusing how often people attribute that statement to Lothar. Makes me wonder if they've actually read Tides of Darkness and are just parroting what they saw somewhere else.

    His taking of Turyalon as a protege was also because he saw Turalyon's potential as a leader and capability for not being as bound by honor in warfare. Not because he had the least amount of faith.

    And he was right. I don't know if the other paladins would have ordered the destruction of the black dragon eggs like Turalyon did. It was a huge fuck you to Deathwing and probably denied him a very powerful asset to use during Cata.
    Last edited by Erbel; 2016-04-20 at 01:36 AM.

  6. #6
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Erbel View Post
    None of that is solid evidence of him not being a follower of the Light. Also Khadgar was the one who said that he wasn't sure if the paladins were capable of doing things that need to be done. It's amusing how often people attribute that statement to Lothar. Makes me wonder if they've actually read Tides of Darkness and are just parroting what they saw somewhere else.

    His taking of Turyalon as a protege was also because he saw Turalyon's potential as a leader and capability for not being as bound by honor in warfare. Not because he had the least amount of faith.

    And he was right. I don't know if the other paladins would have ordered the destruction of the black dragon eggs like Turalyon did. It was a huge fuck you to Deathwing and probably denied him a very powerful asset to use during Cata.
    Was that really Khadgar? I remember that Khadgar compared his and Turalyons powers and that, while he has a greater control about his magics, Turalyon uses the Light with a greater finesse. But it's also a long time since i read the novel and at least in the german translation, it sounded more like he wasn't a real worshipper of the light.

    And Stormwind needs a new Archbishop. Preferential that young Bishop from the Corebooks, that Priest/Fighter Guy. He seemed to be a cool guy.

  7. #7
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    Shouldn't Gilneans be considered humans as well?

  8. #8
    Deleted
    Look. Spoilers from Chronicles, look away if you don't wanna see it.












    You still here? Good!

    Chronicles revealed that the Church of the Light was started by humans long before orcs ever came to Azeroth, possibly at the time of Emperor Thoradin of Arathor (That's circa 3k years ago in lore) by humans who by random mishap connected with the naaru mentally in their sleep. These naaru were referred to as "Angelic beings of pure Light" (or something like that, kinda paraphrasing here) and they inspired the Church of the Holy Light, this also mean the Light just came to them randomly, not in a time of need or anything, it just happened randomly.

    Before the introduction of the Light however, as revealed in Cataclysm, the humans worshipped nature, and the priests of that nature worship were what would later be referred to as druids, a remnant of that ancient human religion existed in Gilneas in form of the Keepers of the Old Ways, commonly referred to as Harvest Witches, like Celestine of the Harvest. These humans did NOT learn their druidism from the night elves, they were already druids, at least with the nature powers, not so much shapeshifting... Maybe... It's not entirely certain, but humans DID in fact worship nature at one point and derived power from that in form of druidism. The worgen form only enhanced their powers, bringing their powers up to the same level as the night elves and tauren.

    Now what you're talking about with Lothar is that he had a hand in starting the Knights of the Silver Hand, aka he was a HUGE factor in creating paladins, but he never was one himself. He helped Faol find one of the first five, and no it wasn't Turalyon, but a man known as Gavinrad the Dire.

    Also, as also revealed in Chronicles, Chi is tied to one of the six elements (Spirit, Earth, Air, Fire, Water and Decay), it's a pandaren word for the element of spirit. Now I know what you're thinking, but no there are no Spirit or Decay elementals, those elements work in a different way than the other four. And there are human witch doctors and elemental casters not tied to arcane magic at the Kurzen compound, so yeah a human shaman is definitely possible... And pandaren are also shaman in the regular way, the same way that orcs, dwarves and so on are... Not all of them are tied to chi, that's mostly a thing for monks and priests to focus on.
    Last edited by mmoc661de564ba; 2016-04-23 at 11:37 PM.

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