Legion classes seem to be in an unfinished state and this is concerning.

[Overdispersion]

Guys, WoD is still in Alpha - this could explain why Cap / Doom Nova trinkets are still wearable by Rogous and Mages. There's a flat 30%-50% difference between best and worst performing classes on live. While the game won't ever be balanced, its hard to believe that Blizzard even tries to balance it at this point. Especially with the same people creating Legion, who also worked on WoD.

Wow, how dare they balance dps around mythic progression and not speed kills on Zakuun 9 months later.

[Deleted]

Wow, how dare they balance dps around mythic progression and not speed kills on Zakuun 9 months later.

Yeah, will you argue that this isn't a problem and one of the reasons for burn out? Blizzard said at one point that they balance classes with max gear in mind (GhostCrawler regime balanced for progression, eg max gear of the previous tier). If they let things go out of hand like this, then they failed with their design philosophy.

Mythic+ Raids would be a welcome addition.

[Nevcairiel]

Yeah, will you argue that this isn't a problem and one of the reasons for burn out?

If people get burned out solely because they don't do as much DPS as someone else at one point in content where the DPS doesn't matter anymore, I'm not sure those cases can really be helped. When you get to farm and speed kills, the DPS values get skewed tremendously everytime, because some classes just burst stronger while some have stronger sustained DPS - fights get shorter, burst classes shine.

The real goal should be to balance for a middle ground. Balancing without any gear makes no much sense, but balancing only for absolute BiS isn't really the answer either. Classes need to be balanced around a time when it matters the most - during progression, while at the same time not drift apart uncontrollably at either the low or highend of gear. Crazy Speed-Kill strats not withstanding, those always favor burst heavy classes either way.

Blizzard tackled the strong scaling in Legion by shifting the scaling of secondary stats, so the differences aren't as extreme and classes shouldn't drift apart as much over the course of the entire expansion. We'll have to see how much this helps however. I'm sure someone could try to model it at varying theoretical gear levels....

[Overdispersion]

Yeah, will you argue that this isn't a problem and one of the reasons for burn out? Blizzard said at one point that they balance classes with max gear in mind (GhostCrawler regime balanced for progression, eg max gear of the previous tier). If they let things go out of hand like this, then they failed with their design philosophy.

Mythic+ Raids would be a welcome addition.

Surely they must take a look at the simc charts for balancing and I just refuse to believe that they saw the numbers for max gear (735 at that point) and said "nah this is finely tuned boys". Makes more sense that they as usual made an erroneous statement rather than being completely inept.

[Delimit]

Surely they must take a look at the simc charts for balancing and I just refuse to believe that they saw the numbers for max gear (735 at that point) and said "nah this is finely tuned boys". Makes more sense that they as usual made an erroneous statement rather than being completely inept.

Yeah, I'm sure Blizzard is busy watching Simcraft for all of their balancing needs.

[Deleted]

Even if I'm myself coming from a hardcore guild, I don't see the reason behind stacking 10-15+ Mages for speed kills rankings - this is a sign for desperation rather than skill, in my honest opinion. My main is a Mage, so...

[Overdispersion]

Yeah, I'm sure Blizzard is busy watching Simcraft for all of their balancing needs.

Yeah I'm sure I'd completely neglect a website dedicated to optimizing dps. I didn't say they were or should balance around simc numbers you bellend, nice strawman there.

[Delimit]

Yeah I'm sure I'd completely neglect a website dedicated to optimizing dps. I didn't say they were or should balance around simc numbers you bellend, nice strawman there.

Nice attempt at claiming that SimC numbers are meaningful. They're not.

[Overdispersion]

Nice attempt at claiming that SimC numbers are meaningful. They're not.

You don't see a strong correlation between SimC numbers and numbers in logs?

[SoulSoBreezy]

I think he's right on the money. I don't want to play a class that's completely gimped compared to live unless I get the right gear and weapons by wasting away in front of my computer screen. The design philosophy in Legion is very worrying.

Right. But the OP was sort of nebulous and definitely hyperbolic with the throwing around of "WoD 2.0." If there's a concern, why not just be specific about it?
I can already imagine the answer from @Mafic. Something like "It'd be a waste of time because Blizzard never listens," correct me on that please =D.

It's statements like that which get more useless replies like "it's only alpha, it'll get better," and other rubbish. Or it prompts foot-in-the-mouth feedback like calling skills or mechanics "dogshit" without any useful feedback. I skimmed through this thread.
That's why I said what I said. It was pretty plain from the start that this thread wouldn't produce much substance.

[apelsinjuice]

unfinished state with 4 months to release dont seem like a problem, they just started class tuning last week

[Deleted]

unfinished state with 4 months to release dont seem like a problem, they just started class tuning last week

problem is class tuning wil be only about numbers not how class works.and in this state most of clases are crap,not fun boring spamming 1 button like Arms warrior..
i dont care about numbers.but if mecanics are crap then that is problem

blizzard did say thy love how clases are playing now..even if all feedback from good players where ignored again look at arms warrior forum

[Letdown]

You have apparently failed to read the last ten pages.

Blizz has said they are done with 99% of mechanical changes. That is why they started damage tuning this past build.

Thanks for reinforcing that you don't know what you are talking about. Thanks.

Welp, had you bothered to check dates, my initial reply was before Blizzard said they are done with mechanical pages. Additionally, and for some reason this eludes your condescending illiteracy, BALANCE PASSES COULD STILL CHANGE MECHANICS.

You're unable to refute that. So please come back to the realm of rationality and talk like an adult.

[Rekz]

Welp, had you bothered to check dates, my initial reply was before Blizzard said they are done with mechanical pages. Additionally, and for some reason this eludes your condescending illiteracy, BALANCE PASSES COULD STILL CHANGE MECHANICS.

You're unable to refute that. So please come back to the realm of rationality and talk like an adult.

Blizzard is starting their tuning pass now. I believe they are happy with how the class specs feel at the moment. This means arms will probably see a heavy nerf this xpac which is fine by me. Fury with the artifact ability is alot of fun right and i'm looking forward to testing out the pvp talents too. Pretty excited right now lol

[Letdown]

Blizzard is starting their tuning pass now. I believe they are happy with how the class specs feel at the moment. This means arms will probably see a heavy nerf this xpac which is fine by me. Fury with the artifact ability is alot of fun right and i'm looking forward to testing out the pvp talents too. Pretty excited right now lol

The point I was trying to make and failing to convey was simply that if an ability doesn't feel good to use, that can be the product of a tuning pass. It doesn't mean it's mechanically a failure -- it means they need to make that particular ability more valuable so it can be incorporated into the rotation.

[Rekz]

The point I was trying to make and failing to convey was simply that if an ability doesn't feel good to use, that can be the product of a tuning pass. It doesn't mean it's mechanically a failure -- it means they need to make that particular ability more valuable so it can be incorporated into the rotation.

I agree with this completely.

[Echocho]

You had 5 months of alpha to provide feedback. The classes are 99% complete and they've moved to numbers tuning. It's way too late to change things now.

[Dezminion]

problem is class tuning wil be only about numbers not how class works.and in this state most of clases are crap,not fun boring spamming 1 button like Arms warrior..
i dont care about numbers.but if mecanics are crap then that is problem

blizzard did say thy love how clases are playing now..even if all feedback from good players where ignored again look at arms warrior forum

Yeah, I do not comprehend how an earth they can think, that hammering 1 button would be so super awsome gameplay?

I have my fears, that they are over simplyfying so new ppl can instantly play at skill cap, but like Blizzard always, they are over doing it

[Tharkkun]

The 'finished game' has to come out by June 30th. That's when the pre-patch goes to the PTR. There always has been 30 days of pre-patch on live before the expansion launches.It's effectively late beta right now.

Except beta stays live up until the expansion goes live. Class and game changes happen right up until release. They'll get their biggest pool of testers when the pre-patch goes live. Last expansion Hunters received their tuning buff a couple days before WoD launched.

- - - Updated - - -

Guys, WoD is still in Alpha - this could explain why Cap / Doom Nova trinkets are still wearable by Rogous and Mages. There's a flat 30%-50% difference between best and worst performing classes on live. While the game won't ever be balanced, its hard to believe that Blizzard even tries to balance it at this point. Especially with the same people creating Legion, who also worked on WoD.

Classes were and still are fairly even on live. Your player skill varies though. We all know the top parses are cheesed so they aren't a reflection of how a class performs on average.

- - - Updated - - -

Nice attempt at claiming that SimC numbers are meaningful. They're not.

SimC is a tool, one of many in this game. Blizzard observes both Simc and Warcraftlogs when taking changes into consideration. They also don't blindly look at the numbers. They compare the scripts used to their own. Players have always come up with unique ways of playing their class which they never thought of. Sometimes Blizzard will embrace it. Other times they will nerf it.

[Mafic]

You had 5 months of alpha to provide feedback. The classes are 99% complete and they've moved to numbers tuning. It's way too late to change things now.

The problem is they don't communicate their intentions or what they plan on doing for a lot of specs in the game.