1. #2061
    Quote Originally Posted by Kreuger View Post



    https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/comment...show_was_made/




    Wow image was large, sorry about that :/
    Shocking indeed how low the number is I assume that's what he means as far as book fans go.

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    This is actually amazing


  2. #2062
    No showrunner in their right mind would ever go out and admit that their show is NOT doing well while it's still ongoing. That's just bad business practice, and could drive numbers down in and of itself. So they'll go "it's doing great!" all the way (in whatever corporate-speek variant), until it's clear the show is either done or cancelled.

  3. #2063
    The third best selling fantasy series of all time wasn't popular enough? The serious fans are the ones you want on your side - they drive all the publicity for you. Alienating them is the stupidest thing you could do.

  4. #2064
    Are they though? I literally didn't know a fan of the Game of Thrones books in the 90s or early 2000s, when the first books were coming out, besides me.

    Except on niche forums, like this one.

    If you don't run in exceptionally nerdy circles, this whole genre is absurdly obscure.

  5. #2065
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Relatively, they're still considered new in the field.

    Amazon originals started back in 2013. That's not a very long time as far as programming standards go.
    Netflix Originals only started in 2012.

  6. #2066
    And the finale was actually even worse than feared.

  7. #2067
    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    So spoilers are out there for ep 8. If you'd rather face the fresh horrors Rafe is inflicting first hand then turn away now. Rand and Moiraine get to the Eye, only to meet Ishy, who they think is the DO. Turns out its a plot to get the Dragon there to try and turn him. Ishy overpowers Moiraine and either shields or stills her - the second is the popular theory. Then Rand uses a sa'angreal Moiraine gave him to melt Ishy.
    Meanwhile, back at Tarwin's Gap Rand has no part in it. No giant figure in the sky. Nope. The battle is won by 5 women, including Nyn and Eg, linking up and nuking the trolloc army.
    Oh, and Agelmar dies by using Hollywood dumb levels of battle tactics.
    And Fain shanks Loial with the cursed dagger and appears to kill him (though given that the actor is filing season 2 it would appear he gets better.) Then Fain steals the Horn of Valere which was stored under Agelmar's throne. No, seriously. They keep such a powerful artefact stored under Agelmar's chair (and he isn't even the Shienaran king) right on the frontline to the blight.
    And the Seanchan turn up as the teaser.
    Plus more.
    Well...here we are.

  8. #2068
    Everyone like the part where LTT wasn't The Dragon but just another Dragon Reborn, wasn't the Tamyrlin seat (who instead was a woman) and knew about the threat of the taint before hand? The female Tamyrlin was right of course and so LTT gets added to the pile of assassinated book characters.

  9. #2069

  10. #2070
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    The third best selling fantasy series of all time wasn't popular enough? The serious fans are the ones you want on your side - they drive all the publicity for you. Alienating them is the stupidest thing you could do.
    Just curious where are you getting 3rd best selling fantasy series from? from what I can find its not that high behind things like harry potter, Discworld, Narnia, Game of thrones and maybe a few others depending how how fantasy is defined.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...-selling_books
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  11. #2071
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    Everyone like the part where LTT wasn't The Dragon but just another Dragon Reborn, wasn't the Tamyrlin seat (who instead was a woman) and knew about the threat of the taint before hand? The female Tamyrlin was right of course and so LTT gets added to the pile of assassinated book characters.
    Tamyrlin wasn't a seat but a ring worn by the leader in the books. They just took the legend about the origin of Amyrlin name and used it in the age of legends. And to be fair it isn't that big of a deal since at that time in the books there were two rival factions, Latra as the leader of one and Lewis as the leader of the other.

    In the books the plan to seal the bore was proposed a few times over the course of the war. So people that understood the power might have known the risks if only one side went. That is not diverging from the books so it is again weird to attack the show over it.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2021-12-24 at 04:20 AM.
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  12. #2072
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Are they though? I literally didn't know a fan of the Game of Thrones books in the 90s or early 2000s, when the first books were coming out, besides me.

    Except on niche forums, like this one.

    If you don't run in exceptionally nerdy circles, this whole genre is absurdly obscure.
    GoT prior to the show had sold about 10 million copies by the end of the show it was estimated to have barely passed WoT around 90 million.

    Edit: Looks like even that sub is starting to get pissed if you read the show thread. This was one time I was really hoping the leaks weren't real what a complete joke.
    Last edited by Xath; 2021-12-24 at 03:54 AM.

  13. #2073
    It's clear the series isn't as good as teh book, not by some distnace, but it is not a bad production either. It's got a lot of good points. It's a different story, lots of modification, that is weaker than the original, but what it does is still good imo.

    I may not like some of the changes and substitutions . e.g. Lews Therin isn't Tamrylin? wf? Why change that? Except - you know - ultra feminism
    Some of the changes I'm sure they made because well, we had to cut, and it could go either way, let's ignore the source material and make it women, because this is less controversial to the mad woke crowd.

    I'm not going to do a scene by scene review of the last episode. Nothing really to compare it to as so much is changed, you just have to conclude it's a different story.

    It's good enough though.. but the book story is a far more magical and better experience. Probably budget restrictions, not being able to show the Eye of the World, or the explanation of it all in the books, the Green man, the two forsaken.

    Sadly much of what the series shows though quite cool, makes little sense. A 6/10 for a show that could have been a 10/10 and a game changer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Tamyrlin wasn't a seat but a ring worn by the leader in the books. They just took the legend about the origin of Amyrlin name and used it in the age of legends. And to be fair it isn't that big of a deal since at that time in the books there were two rival factions, Latra as the leader of one and Lewis as the leader of the other.

    In the books the plan to seal the bore was proposed a few times over the course of the war. So people that understood the power might have known the risks if only one side went. That is not diverging from the books so it is again weird to attack the show over it.
    He isn't wrong, even though you are also correct in that it isn't that relevant. It does show again the needless changes made for this intersectionalism, ultra feminist bull crap. But it hardly matters this, and only those who read the book would notice how seriously one sided the changes to the book are and how un-necessary they are too.

    However, I don't think the show actually is much worse than it is because of it on the one hand, and on the other hand i think it actually ruins a lot. This could have appealed SIGNIFICANTLY to all ages, all genders, all political dispositions and ideologies if it kept tot the source material. But what they did, really only please the far left, and is a mild interest to everyone else, and pisses a few off.


    It's lesser because of the changes, but not as much as those who are very angry about the changes make it. As annoyed as some of them are, some of the stuff in the show was quite cool.


    I'm relieved Rand at least is the dragon and the dragon isn't split iinto 5 (that was awful to put in, even if it was a red herring.
    The others are revealed as Ta'veren, - while the 3 boys were definitely named Ta'veren, it is possible from the books that Nynaeve and Egwene were also, Moiraine is written to say that while the boys definitely are Ta'veren, it is possible the two girls are too and there are degrees of Ta'veren - and based on the level of importance of the roles the girls play, they are Ta'veren, though not quite as much as the 3 boys - sadly the show doesn't reflect the importance of strength of the male characters.
    Though it made little sense, the build up was poor, it was still nicely executed as an alternate timeline (another age).
    I'm glad they envisioned the Age of Legends closer to what I felt it would be - futuristic (even for irl), it is meant to be advanced. Just a brief glimpse outside Lews Therin's window.

    Did anyone else also consider that they might actually make Rand turn to the shadow in this show? I did, they changed so much, Egwene could have been the dragon, Rand turned tot he shadow.

    Did you hear Padan Fain's statement? Some must be light and some must be shadow? I hope that isn't a change of lore ..but rather than just expanding the belief system of the shadow, which should be different from the light. If the shadow people feel that the shadow is necessary, good for them, and feel some of the Ta'veren must be shadow , good for them, but that's not what people believe on the light side. They believe the wheel turns out the heroes it needs to stop the shadow. There seems a truth to both sides, but what matters is the cycle continues.

    Is there anyone that thought Nynaeve would die for a sec? Ofc not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    Everyone like the part where LTT wasn't The Dragon but just another Dragon Reborn, wasn't the Tamyrlin seat (who instead was a woman) and knew about the threat of the taint before hand? The female Tamyrlin was right of course and so LTT gets added to the pile of assassinated book characters.
    I see what rhole was quoting. Ofc, we have to show how misguided and wrong the men were. rhole is right is that in the original story ther ewas a conflict and two camps. But the way they show it, kinda makes the men look reckless and foolish, rather than going into the heart of darkness full of courage to do the impossible even if it means thre life.


    Off course it's only a glimpse, so there is a chance to show another side that isn't negative to men. The show currently bashes men a bit too much, and they are constnatly outshone.. and i don't like that... like it's written by people who hate men.. like a red ajah Aes Sedai, is controlling the retelling :wink:

  14. #2074
    I'm legitimately starting to think a certain mod on Dmount with the initials CS is literally being paid even Jennifer sounds absolutely hopeless at this garbage but CS is continually pumping it up her and EH at this point are either beyond delusional or straight up getting paid to astroturf. Like burning out during a circle wtf is that bs the entire point of a circle is to prevent that. If 5 untrained women could just link and take out an entire horde of trollocs there would be no need for warders let alone the dragon. Just get 5 village girls and spank the dark one's forces back.

    Also Sanderson apparently said he wasn't allowed to consult on 7 and 8 until the editing phase so Rafe didn't even have to overrule him this time.

  15. #2075
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    What I don't get is the twisting of lore details to elevate women more, when the series is (at least for its time) already brilliantly refreshing at showing women being more than capable themselves.

    Hell, two big arcs for both Rand and Perrin is to get it through their wooly skulls that the women in their lives (Faile, Maidens of the Spear etc) don't need their coddling and can handle themselves.

    Not to mention Nynaeve and Egwene kicking ass and taking names left and right while Elayne politically maneuvers herself onto both the throne of Caemlyn and ... damn the name escapes me. The city Moiraine is from, also starts with a C. Cardian?

    Edit: Cairhien, duuuuuuuurrrrr

  16. #2076
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    I'm legitimately starting to think a certain mod on Dmount with the initials CS is literally being paid even Jennifer sounds absolutely hopeless at this garbage but CS is continually pumping it up her and EH at this point are either beyond delusional or straight up getting paid to astroturf. Like burning out during a circle wtf is that bs the entire point of a circle is to prevent that. If 5 untrained women could just link and take out an entire horde of trollocs there would be no need for warders let alone the dragon. Just get 5 village girls and spank the dark one's forces back.

    Also Sanderson apparently said he wasn't allowed to consult on 7 and 8 until the editing phase so Rafe didn't even have to overrule him this time.
    They just want approval .. "Sanderson reviewed it" stamp.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantique View Post
    What I don't get is the twisting of lore details to elevate women more, when the series is (at least for its time) already brilliantly refreshing at showing women being more than capable themselves.
    Because ultra-feminism , even works that don't need it are being over written and skewed.

    Moiraine needed to be the focus? Nope, not necessary at all - she is a huge character - a Gandalf like figure to Rand/Perrin & Mat's Frodo. Is Frodo the only important figure? No, Aragaorn /Leegolas , the Egwene/Nynaeve equivalent are major characters too that shine brilliantly in the book, with ones that come later like Elayne adding to that.

    So why change it? It's not just elevating women, they pushed men down, rmeoved a lot of thingsattributed tot he men, made them seem irrelevant, useless, , weak and petulant - it is exactly what a man hating ultra feminist woman would write.

    The original tale has enough epic fantasy and intrigue to sufficiently rival Game of thrones and Lord of the Rings.. but it's charm is the lreltability of the characters in these extraordinary epic situations.

    It hwas teh feel of Star wars, Lord of the Rings and Gmae of thrones rolled in one with a better balance. .. none of their changes were necessary - not the extent they made them - the excuse of time and budget is b/s. You can make changes for those, but those changes we saw? Nope, those are agenda driven.. it chagnes the wheel of time from a series that appeals to all, with an air of realism via the characters (if not the mythology - it is fantasy afterall) to a wet dream power trip for man hating dominatrix ultra feminist types.


    End result? It please a very very small group immensely, and is somewhat okay to the majority of the rest of the world. Men may watch it if they're bored, they won't like it like the Witcher or GoT.. women will somewhat enjoy it, but weak men have never been attractive to the majority of women, strong or not. Just like men enjoy seeing women shine, so to do women enjoy seeing men shine..

    The manhating crowd is what gets off on this imbalance. So they shift from equality to inequality.

    Jordan's works was written by him and his wife, she was his chief editor, and when he got sick, she penned 7 to 11 mainly or at least most of the remaining books till Sanderson took over to finish the last ones.

    The interactions between the sexes felt real, , timeless, they didn't need to fit our stupid social engineering /evangelism done by nutters who've lostall sense of reality


    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantique View Post
    Hell, two big arcs for both Rand and Perrin is to get it through their wooly skulls that the women in their lives (Faile, Maidens of the Spear etc) don't need their coddling and can handle themselves.

    Not to mention Nynaeve and Egwene kicking ass and taking names left and right while Elayne politically maneuvers herself onto both the throne of Caemlyn and ... damn the name escapes me. The city Moiraine is from, also starts with a C. Cardian?

    Edit: Cairhien, duuuuuuuurrrrr
    We who read the books know this, and how much weaker and less enjoyable the changes make the whole project.

    But let us also be fair, while it isn't the best work, it has its appeal and a few things were done quite well too. It's okay for people who don't mind shallow characters, little explanation and love effects and magic types. It has some good adrenaline pushes and makes enough sense to not be totally lost. When you know the books, you are shocked how much is cut, but there are some things added that made me smile.

    As I said, it would make a certain minority female group very happy, and be mediocre to the vast majority of the rest of us. Better than average even since so much tv is full of junk (always has been) with shallow plots and poor explanations, relying on talent of great actors and artists, managers to actually make it work rather than those who hack at the story. to self insert or preach their ideology subversively copting someone else work to do so.

    Shame on the writers who did that and the show runner who approved it.. Still I can't say his work was terrible, even though what he did was utterly disgraceful to the source material. 6.5/10 for me.

  17. #2077
    Bloodsail Admiral Smallfruitbat's Avatar
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    So, that was that then. The leaks were right. I've seen a couple of reaction videos, can't even bring myself to watch the episode. I'm sure the Twitter screechers are patting themselves on the back and celebrating Saint Rafe for his services to their cause.

  18. #2078
    Haaaa....HAAAA.....That is my reaction after watching episode. Holy moly, this is worse than Shanara chronicles. This is so cheap that cheap wants it name back.


    HAAA...Well this is good bye. Good bye Harriet. Hope you milk it for some more money. I have seen CW shows with better story.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    Everyone like the part where LTT wasn't The Dragon but just another Dragon Reborn, wasn't the Tamyrlin seat (who instead was a woman) and knew about the threat of the taint before hand? The female Tamyrlin was right of course and so LTT gets added to the pile of assassinated book characters.
    Don't stress yourself. In this new turning, Dragon is a thing that turns up all the time! You are Dragon reborn, you are dragon reborn, you are dragon reborn!

    Entire dialog between LTT and that WOMAN was meant to demean men and they even demoted him! WTF Dragon Reborn was even doing in that age! Why would anyone call him Dragon Reborn in that age! This director is aiming for people with IQ less than 50.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Tamyrlin wasn't a seat but a ring worn by the leader in the books. They just took the legend about the origin of Amyrlin name and used it in the age of legends. And to be fair it isn't that big of a deal since at that time in the books there were two rival factions, Latra as the leader of one and Lewis as the leader of the other.

    In the books the plan to seal the bore was proposed a few times over the course of the war. So people that understood the power might have known the risks if only one side went. That is not diverging from the books so it is again weird to attack the show over it.
    LOl..Nothing is big deal. Perrin being a sissy is not a big deal. Lan doing nothing is not a big deal. Rand wiggling and ....is not a big deal. Loial talking about leaf and getting stabbed a man his size is not a big deal..Egwene bringing a dead woman back thanks to power of love is not a big deal.

    Nothing is a big deal! Rejoice! When we accept that nothing is big deal, we truly can elevate the series!
    Last edited by jdbond; 2021-12-24 at 12:39 PM.

  19. #2079
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdbond View Post
    Haaaa....HAAAA.....That is my reaction after watching episode. Holy moly, this is worse than Shanara chronicles. This is so cheap that cheap wants it name back.

    I wouldn't go that far, but this does equally make me not want to watch season 2. I am happy I watched season 1 but it was a slog.

    the only thing I can think is this is just another turning of the wheel this isn't an adaptation of the the early books, maybe loosely, but it feels very different, you have really got to separate the books from this show to have interest. And even then its something, as someone who has read the books, that i find very hard to do.
    Last edited by Orby; 2021-12-24 at 12:13 PM.
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  20. #2080
    I don't care about how it's different than the books or women power or whatever. I enjoyed the show till now, but the last two episodes really make me wonder.

    The great buildup for the final (and first) confrontation with the "dark one", the quest to find who is the dragon. Then Rand just goes "oh it's me", and Moraine: "ah, ok, let's go". They go, the bad guy doesn't even kill her (an thus allowing her to put his plans at risk, not that this side plot had any influence on anything), and Rand without any training or simply further knowledge deals with it.

    I feels just like Luke would have actually killed Darth Vader on Dagobah instead of just some force vision.

    And if five unexperienced "magic" women can stop - or rather eradicate - an army five times larger than anyone has ever faced there, why bother building or sending an army in the first place. And even worse: First sacrificing all men trying to contain them conventionally.
    You might expect some who is a thousands of years old sorcerer himself to anticipate such things and have a defense against that instead of sending your army into their doom.

    Generally it feels like they were surprised that it's already the season's finale. It really felt disappointing.

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