[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Shadowferal]

Side note did anyone see the absurdity they turned the collars into lol? Just what lol

I was wondering if the change was to keep them quiet. Recall how obsequious and groveling they were and referring to themselves in the third person. When Egwene furiously collared the one sul'dam, well I felt it.

[jdbond]

Hmm... Amazon owned IMDB has wot dropping down to 6.2. Funny how the narrative says hardcore book fans bombed it, while saying that hardcore book fans weren't relevant regarding viewership. Or perhaps aside from the hardcore fan, Rafe & Co should have tried harder to nake a better product to counter that irrelevant fan base with his own.

Let it go. I am not a "hardcore" fan. I didn't rant about non-whiteness of actors. I am not ranting about many things. I ranted about poor storytelling, potholes, poor acting, lack of character development, neutering all male characters etc.

They didn't even try to do the world building. They didn't bother to build atmosphere. I mean White cloak had more menace than Dark One. Nothing in this show matters. They intentionally added that stupid wave thing (Seanchan) to "heighten" the tension. This is bad storytelling. Entire atmosphere of show is so generic, it is hard to understand this is high fantasy and yet, they waste ton of money on needless (and poorly done) CGI to wow. Entire show is build around gimmicks. Instead of a "big plot", you have episodic wows and cliffhangers. Like if you tell a good story, audience won't like it!

I am not angry anymore. I don't care. This show is best left forgotten. You guys should do the same. Let the discussion end and forget if this show ever existed.

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You know how Amazon was crowing about the 1.16 billion minutes in the first week? Well the Witcher 2 numbers came in. For the first three days they had 142 million hours. That is compared to the 19.3 million for WoT

That was for all 8 EPs compared to 3, but that is still two and a half times more viewership per ep on a smaller budget

And they are arrogantly parading around those mediocre numbers. Perhaps it is a success on Amazon. Do they have an wildly popular IP? Perhaps show can survive with a budget cut since it cost more than GoT with not 1/10th of numbers. Meh...It is the arrogance of director that is baffling. I shudder to think how much drop they suffered from Ep3 to 8. I mean is there any positive vibe going anywhere about this show outside of a small reditt grp?

[Tyris Flare]

Witcher season 2 also has many ill-chosen variations from the books on top of some bad editing that makes parts of the plot incoherent to normie viewers. And the CGI, while better than season 1, still isn't great. No one has really been able to touch Mando quality for TV yet.

But Witcher has a stellar cast so it's at least watchable, and the biggest frustration (to me) is just that it could be so much better.

[Ygg]

Was sceptical going into this series. Re-reading it while watching it. And I was pleasantly surprised. Up until episode 8.

[Mace]

Was sceptical going into this series. Re-reading it while watching it. And I was pleasantly surprised. Up until episode 8.

Actually, it's quite enjoyable, but the bastardisation of the original work is irritating enough to sour the enjoyment most fans have, or when they start explaining it, it can create an overtly negative impression that isn't as bad as it seems.


Clearly the book does a much better job, they turned a 10/10 book into a 6/10 or 7/10 series - this is a massive drop, despite it being fairly good, it could have been incredible.

Sadly you will notice one of Jordan's biggest assets is missing, the charm. Especially in the main characters. They are not developed enough at all. Unnecessary focus on the world politics in book 1 is way off. The organisations and their importance are taken care of in the narrative from the perspective of the main characters. It works very well in the book you get the feeling of EPic fantasy, political intrigue which Game of Thornes has and does better, but it's still pretty good in WoT, and yet the likeability and relatability of the main characters that is mostly missing in GoT, making this work more likeable. I tell you, if you read the book it has an almost star wars like heroic/heroism fantasy feel to it.

And it's epic fantasy scale is a big as the Lord of the rings an d Game of thrones. It certainly is epic. I sort of prefer how LotR handles epic, but this is just as good in it's own way, it is incredible.

Sadly a lot of the loveable bits aren't there, the bits that make you want to be Rand or Mat or Perrin or Egwene aren't there. I think only Nynaeve comes across as likeable in that way and even then she is missing some of the notorious character she has in the book. She really blossoms in later volumes. In the show she is pushed forward too early, at the expense of the main characters that you should be developing first and making likeable because of their role.

But let's see how future seasons will correct or adapt the work.

[Rhlor]

I guess they'll skip almost two books for rand to meet the aiel. I also imagine that the plan is that while Rand is lost in the desert to tell the story focusing exclusively on female characters. I would not be surprised if they do matt in a forsaken

[Coniferous]

Hmm... Amazon owned IMDB has wot dropping down to 6.2. Funny how the narrative says hardcore book fans bombed it, while saying that hardcore book fans weren't relevant regarding viewership. Or perhaps aside from the hardcore fan, Rafe & Co should have tried harder to nake a better product to counter that irrelevant fan base with his own.

It's also kind of ridiculous to make a series and say that it's not targeted at the fans of the books the series is based on. What the hell is that?

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I guess they'll skip almost two books for rand to meet the aiel. I also imagine that the plan is that while Rand is lost in the desert to tell the story focusing exclusively on female characters. I would not be surprised if they do matt in a forsaken

If it's anything like the first season, Rand will just be wandering around pointlessly, going mad, often coming this close to being seduced by the dark side, while the female characters do all the work.

[Rhlor]

It's also kind of ridiculous to make a series and say that it's not targeted at the fans of the books the series is based on. What the hell is that?

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If it's anything like the first season, Rand will just be wandering around pointlessly, going mad, often coming this close to being seduced by the dark side, while the female characters do all the work.

I don't mind the changes. I liked the foundation that changed white men for black women, but the story was interesting and it had good special effects.

[Biomega]

It's also kind of ridiculous to make a series and say that it's not targeted at the fans of the books the series is based on. What the hell is that?

It's the specter of fandom. People are afraid to cater to niche audiences because it artificially limits their reach - but at the same time, they keep on flocking to established IP because it's proven to work. It's hard to walk the edge between the security of a known brand and the limitations of a brand-loyal audience.

Hence why people tend to make so many changes to adaptations that go beyond simply adapting to a different medium; they're trying to keep the fans, but add things that might attract non-fans.

[Coniferous]

It's a tricky narrative to weave. On the one hand, the ideal goal is to have hardcore fans be impressed and become advocates of your show to non-fans; on the other hand, if you SAY you want a hardcore-fan viewership, you risk alienating people who think you need to be a fan to watch this and wouldn't understand it if you're not a fan.

PR is a minefield.

It's tricky to weave, but saying that you're not interested in appealing to the hardcore fans of the books is pretty dumb. LOTR made changes but the overall story stayed the same. Here's how Rafe Judkins would have done Lord of the Rings:

Episode 1: Rosie Cotton POV. Bilbo Baggins is throwing a big obnoxious party and pisses everyone off by disappearing. Sam is drunk and puking, so Rosie brings him home. What can she do? You can't find any better men.

Episode 2: Rosie discovers that Frodo is going mad from the one ring. Lady Galadriel arrives and tells Rosie she has to bring Frodo and Sam to Mount Doom. She leaves behind Gandalf, a wizard who is always high from smoking too much weed, to help them on the journey.

Episode 3: The hobbits are helpless in the wild, but Rosie gets things in order. She makes a camp, she hunts for food, and she even gets Gandalf to give up pot after she hits him several times with a walking stick. There's some debate about which way to go, and they listen to Frodo and end up attacked by Black Riders. Gandalf, finally sober, keeps them off. They all decide to follow Rosie from now on.

Episode 4: Love triangle, Sam and Frodo fighting over Rosie attracts more Black Riders, and they barely make it to Rivendell where they are saved by Arwen.

Episode 5: New Fellowship of the Ring: Legolas is a female, Arwen takes Aragorn's place, Rosie obviously involved. Off to Moria.

Episode 6: In Moria. Pippen makes too much noise, attracting the Balrog. Gandalf is knocked off a bridge, but Rosie saves them. It turns out that Elrond gave Rosie his ring of power and she uses it to defeat the Balrog.

Episode 7: Galadriel. Don't have to change this part much.

Episode 8: Boromir and Frodo both go mad and start fighting over the ring. Rosie, after fighting off several hundred Orcs, kills Boromir (good riddance, he's a man), then uses her ring to cure Frodo of his madness. Arwen goes off to win the battles of the two towers while Rosie brings Sam and Frodo towards Mount Doom.

There would be two more seasons, the last one ending with Frodo and Sam both going completely mad and Rosie throwing them both into Mount Doom then passionately making out with Arwen after they reunite over the ruins of Barad-dur.

[Gumble]

I don't mind the changes. I liked the foundation that changed white men for black women, but the story was interesting and it had good special effects.

I swear this post hurt my head until I realized it was complete sarcasm. Sorry I was trying to decipher it as serious.

[Rhlor]

It's tricky to weave, but saying that you're not interested in appealing to the hardcore fans of the books is pretty dumb. LOTR made changes but the overall story stayed the same. Here's how Rafe Judkins would have done Lord of the Rings:

Episode 1: Rosie Cotton POV. Bilbo Baggins is throwing a big obnoxious party and pisses everyone off by disappearing. Sam is drunk and puking, so Rosie brings him home. What can she do? You can't find any better men.

Episode 2: Rosie discovers that Frodo is going mad from the one ring. Lady Galadriel arrives and tells Rosie she has to bring Frodo and Sam to Mount Doom. She leaves behind Gandalf, a wizard who is always high from smoking too much weed, to help them on the journey.

Episode 3: The hobbits are helpless in the wild, but Rosie gets things in order. She makes a camp, she hunts for food, and she even gets Gandalf to give up pot after she hits him several times with a walking stick. There's some debate about which way to go, and they listen to Frodo and end up attacked by Black Riders. Gandalf, finally sober, keeps them off. They all decide to follow Rosie from now on.

Episode 4: Love triangle, Sam and Frodo fighting over Rosie attracts more Black Riders, and they barely make it to Rivendell where they are saved by Arwen.

Episode 5: New Fellowship of the Ring: Legolas is a female, Arwen takes Aragorn's place, Rosie obviously involved. Off to Moria.

Episode 6: In Moria. Pippen makes too much noise, attracting the Balrog. Gandalf is knocked off a bridge, but Rosie saves them. It turns out that Elrond gave Rosie his ring of power and she uses it to defeat the Balrog.

Episode 7: Galadriel. Don't have to change this part much.

Episode 8: Boromir and Frodo both go mad and start fighting over the ring. Rosie, after fighting off several hundred Orcs, kills Boromir (good riddance, he's a man), then uses her ring to cure Frodo of his madness. Arwen goes off to win the battles of the two towers while Rosie brings Sam and Frodo towards Mount Doom.

There would be two more seasons, the last one ending with Frodo and Sam both going completely mad and Rosie throwing them both into Mount Doom then passionately making out with Arwen after they reunite over the ruins of Barad-dur.

You forgot the lgbt couple

[Coniferous]

You forgot the lgbt couple

Oh those would be all over Rivendell and Lothlorien. Elves wouldn't even have a gender.

[Rhlor]

Oh those would be all over Rivendell and Lothlorien. Elves wouldn't even have a gender.

And pippin and merry

[Shadowferal]

I mean White cloak had more menace than Dark One.

The White Cloak All Male Revue Boy Band...just to nail the terror down.

[Beloren]

Oh those would be all over Rivendell and Lothlorien. Elves wouldn't even have a gender.

i WOULDN'T BE SURPIRSED.. THESE PEOPLE AREN'T INTERESTED IN MAKING GOOD ENTERTAINMENT AS THEY ARE IN SOCIAL ENGEINEERING US.

SURE IT WILL PLEASE "SOME" IN THE TRANSGENDER CROWD A LOT (THE RELIGIOUS/SOCIO-POLITICAL ACTIVIST LOT), BUT IT WILL PISS OFF NEAERLY EVERYONE ELSE.. MOST OF ALL THOSE WHO KNOW THE ORIGINAL CONTENT.. AND BEGS THE QUESTION.. WHYA RE YOU CHAGING EXISTING STUFF TO SHOW THESE CHANGES YOU THINK IS RIGHT, BUT CERTAINLY NOT EVERYONE, WHEN YOU CAN MAKE NEW PROGRAMS THAT CANPERPETUATE YOUR NEW PHILOSOPHY TO THE END?

[Biomega]

WHYA RE YOU CHAGING EXISTING STUFF TO SHOW THESE CHANGES YOU THINK IS RIGHT, BUT CERTAINLY NOT EVERYONE, WHEN YOU CAN MAKE NEW PROGRAMS THAT CANPERPETUATE YOUR NEW PHILOSOPHY TO THE END?

Because producers are less likely to put money behind unknown new IPs than they are to support established brands that already come with their own fanbase. That's why we're getting nothing but reboots, sequels, adaptations, etc. lately. You'd have to think REAL hard to recall the last successful series/movie that came out that WASN'T based on existing IP.

That being said, I've also just about had it up to here with people who think diversity is a substitute for good writing. Be as diverse as you like, I applaud every deviation from the norm - but only if and only as long as it's GOOD WRITING.

[Mace]

I swear this post hurt my head until I realized it was complete sarcasm. Sorry I was trying to decipher it as serious.

He wasn't being sarcastic.

ANd he has a right to like what he likes.


Many of the special effects were eye catching, but if you read the books, you know some oft hem fell short. The Aiel pregnant female fight was incredible.

The focus moving from white men to black women (i.e. Nynaeve/Egwene) is likely what he meant.


I think the original material was fine, it needed no race or gender swaps, it needed no embellishments to make it more woke or "modern" people can actually like something from being culturally different.. they don't have to make everything the same as every other blimming Hollywood production because @Tha'ts the thing@ or rather what "they think is the thing"

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Because producers are less likely to put money behind unknown new IPs than they are to support established brands that already come with their own fanbase. That's why we're getting nothing but reboots, sequels, adaptations, etc. lately. You'd have to think REAL hard to recall the last successful series/movie that came out that WASN'T based on existing IP.

That being said, I've also just about had it up to here with people who think diversity is a substitute for good writing. Be as diverse as you like, I applaud every deviation from the norm - but only if and only as long as it's GOOD WRITING.

And ye tthey fail to understand how this angers fans incredibly. You wan tto get existing fanbase on your side you seriously do.. they love the IP already adn tehy will give you a level of free advertisement, word of mouth, youtube channel hypes etc, if you only do justice by the program.

it's clear when they make un-necessary changes just because of "wokeness" which is a social political thing, this annoys people. It annooys me, a black , non-straight, male to no end. I like certain things for what they are, they don't have to have "prepresentation" in everything. especially when changing the script to force these things in just makes the story worse.


It's so hard to have a series at the level of popualrity that Robert Jordan's books got.. the fact that a work can be so loved means there is much that's special about it that millions loved. You just wade in and go, right, I have my agenda and i have my point of view, we are changing this , thsi and that, becasue I'm the boss and I know how to make it better.

It doesnt' need you to make it better, it needs you to make it faithful and bring out what was written,because it' that story that captured millions.

And lo and behoold, teh Whell of Time in the show has gone from a 10/10 book to a just above average 6/10 show .. al because of "change" mouh..for the sake of we have to modernise it..

It was modern enough, and no you don't, people love it for what it is. Why do you think a man like me, born nearly 60 years after LotR is written can enjoy a book and product from a different time and era with no "representation" for who and what i am.

I can enjoy it because the story is good, the same way I can enjoy programs from Bollywood or South Korean kdreamas - in a culture and ethnicity that is totally different mine.. they don't nee d me represented to be good or enjoyable or very famous.

They're changes are ruining IPs, fans are telling them. They might still make some moeny and watchable, that shouldn't hide the fact they are worse off, and could have been a lot better.

[Biomega]

And ye tthey fail to understand how this angers fans incredibly. You wan tto get existing fanbase on your side you seriously do.. they love the IP already adn tehy will give you a level of free advertisement, word of mouth, youtube channel hypes etc, if you only do justice by the program.

Well therein lies the rub. What are some of the REALLY true-to-material adaptations out there? Some Warhammer animated stuff, or something? No one EXCEPT fans watches that, and that's what the producers are afraid of much more so than they are alienating SOME fans if it means bringing in lots of other, general viewers.

Of course, that equation doesn't always work out. Cinematic history is riddled with failed adaptations that alienated fans AND failed to bring in non-fans (remember the Artemis Fowl movie? Yeah, nobody does), and there is absolutely some causation as well correlation. The problem lies in identifying where, precisely.

it's clear when they make un-necessary changes just because of "wokeness" which is a social political thing, this annoys people.

Well, to an extent. There's a reason they keep doing it - they think it works. Whether it does nor not is hard to gauge properly, because it's difficult to find proper comparisons. And you say it "annoys people" and it does, but it also brings in people - how those stack up against each other is difficult to determine. For me, it's a flawed approach to begin with, because it presupposes an exchange that isn't real: the choice IS NOT between "woke" and "well written", and people who frame it that way (on either end of the agenda spectrum) do not understand a thing about writing. That aggravates me.

It's so hard to have a series at the level of popualrity that Robert Jordan's books got.

I'm not even sure it IS so hard. I'm far from saying "just do the books, verbatim", but one would think that a writer of proven high caliber can be trusted with the narrative they set up. Details need to be fiddled with to pay proper respect to the new medium, to be sure, but thinking that fundamental plots need to be redesigned borders on arrogance on the part of the showrunners.

The real problem, in my view, is something else, though. People still have a perception that television audiences are dumb, or at least dumber than book audiences. They think that unless you simplify everything, and make everything explicit, and scream it at them with a bullhorn, people won't "get it". This I find offensive, and I'm quite frankly tired of being treated like an idiot every time I watch something on a screen. You think subtlety, and complexity, and intricacy don't work for a TV show? THINK AGAIN, PRODUCERS.

[Grimbold21]

Dunno why you folks are bitter or surprised. Don't watch the shows.

I mean, personally, at the first hint that an adaptation of a work I enjoy goes the D&I route, I decide right away that I won't watch it. It took me like 4 or 5 months after the Witcher S1 came out to watch it, and that was the only time I can think of that I caved in. Haven't even bothered with s2.

These shows make it through because the vast majority of the audience is oblivious to these sort of criticisms. Non-book readers and people that don't spend their time online in back & forths about the merits and disadvantages of D&I measures applied to media, don't care.

The other day my brother came to me with his phone, showing me the scene of Rand's mother fighting off her attackers while in the very process of giving birth, asking me "How can you think the show is garbage? She's a badass!"

In that regard, I have smth in common with high and mighty D&I crowd, and that is: You just don't know any better.