[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Triceron]

Saying I am ignorant, using head cannon, arguing something that isn't in the books, and etc is not saying I'm wrong?

Being ignorant is not the same as being wrong, no. It means you're ignoring certain facts and reality in order to perpetuate your argument. Here, it is specifically the fallacy that the Pattern in the books has anything to do with the show, which it does not. Or bringing up real life pregnant women doing extraneous activities as a comparison to the show, which it is not comparable at all. These are arguments of ignorance, because you're drawing comparisons which aren't relative to explaining why the show depicts a woman being able to fight at peak performance while in full labour.

All your efforts in explaining believability are in ignorance to the depictions that exist directly in the show. By all means, you should be saying 'yeah the show is over the top' and leaving it at that. The fact you are trying to explain these events as being believable is ignorant, because you're actively trying to prove it as being believable, rather than regarding that believability is everyone's subjective value.

You aren't wrong because we're ultimately talking about subjective interpretations of fiction. There is no right or wrong in how believable fiction is. You can make an argument that it is believable to you for X and Y reasons. Yet even then, those reasons can be ignorant.

An example: I say I don't like pizza because it tastes burnt. That opinion is not right or wrong, because it's an expression of preference. It can be a true opinion that I don't like pizza, but it is also ignorant because it assumes that all pizza tastes burnt.

This you? Is the pattern fate, or is it not fate?

Fate is an unchanging, immutable guiding principle to all events and actions.

The Pattern is also a guiding principle, much like Fate, but it has exceptions to the rules. It guides, yet it is flexible enough to allow the free will of individuals or interject a 'Chosen one' who can actively manipulate that same guiding principle.

The Pattern is not fate.


As for the second statement, you said :

It is also hilarious how much denial you are in that you'll accept a theory that could lead a woman hundreds of miles over years to a specific place. But take issue with her being able to fight and do stuff that keeps her alive until that specific place.

In the context of your statement, you're basically talking about the same principles of fate - a theory that leads a woman hundreds of miles over a year to a specific place. The theory isn't exclusive to the Pattern in the books. That also applies to fate.

And you're comparing to her being able to fight and do stuff that keeps her alive until that specific place. In context, you're not talking about fate, you're talking about choice and action, and implying superhuman feats at that if we're still talking about the show. Those are two contrasting values here.


The Pattern is not fate. The Pattern is not solely responsible for Tigraine's survival actions in the show. They're two different concepts we're talking about. And if we're solely talking about Fate guiding Tigraine to performing super-human actions during labour because it was her fate to do so, then it falls back to my original criticism of this being an unbelievable and unrealistic explanation.

- - - Updated - - -

You've already acknowledged it is possible even though you are still conflicted on the pattern controlling fate or not.

Not sure why you think I'm conflicted at all.

I just think you have poor reading comprehension skills and took to explaning things in the book that didn't need any explaining. You took a quote from me out of context and felt the need to explain why the books are believable, when I never made any comment about the books lacking believability.

That you're arguing in favour of a Pregnant woman being able to fight is moot, because I never said it was unrealistic for a Pregnant woman to fight. I said it was unrealistic for them to be shown fighting at peak performance while in labour; which we both acknowledge as being over the top. So if you were somehow thinking that I said pregnant women fighting is unrealistic, then you were making assumptions and arguing nothing for the sake of it. Nothing in my statements said a Pregnant woman couldn't fight for her life. All my comments are about her superhuman feats and acrobatics while in active labour is simply not believable. And again, nothing about this was directly implied in the books that she was fighting while in labour.

[Surfd]

Is the pattern fate, or is it not fate?

Shouldn't have to point this out, but you are confusing the Pattern and the Wheel. The Pattern has no agency. It is purely a product of the weaving of the Wheel. The Wheel does (at least as far as the books indicate) have agency: It actively can step in to attempt to "correct" problems in the pattern. Notice I say "attempt".

The Pattern has some "fixed" elements that "should" happen during each age, Ie, the actual "Pattern" in the Pattern, but there is no guarantee that those events WILL happen. It has specifically been noted there are some turnings of the Wheel where the Champion of Light falls, and the final battle is "lost" and the Dark dominates the Pattern for an age or two until things go around again.

So no, the pattern isn't "Fixed Fate", but it does have "guided" fate: Ie, the weaving may nudge you in specific directions, but it will not act to "guarantee" you make it to your destination. It is entirely possible for people to be woven into the pattern with an actual, literal "Purpose" in life. It is also entirely possible for those individuals to fail at achieving that purpose.

As for Ta'veren, they are agents of the Wheel, usually empowered to "shift" the pattern around them, to make it easier for things to happen in a certain way or to make it easier to steer the pattern towards the Wheel's desired outcome, but they still aren't a "guarantee". They are not infallible superhumans able to conciously, willfully shape the Pattern to their whims or anything like that, they are simply nexus points of change, where unlikely outcomes become slightly more likely when they are near by. A knife in the back would still kill one stone dead much the same way getting drunk and falling off a battlement would. Being a Ta'veren is not some kind of "I win" button that guarantees a specific outcome MUST happen, it only increases the odds of it possibly happening.

If Tigrane had tripped over a rock and taken herself and her unborn child off the map by falling to their deaths in the desert, the pattern would have simply carried on, and the Wheel would have tried again, maybe in another age or two, until eventually the Dragon gets reborn. It can only put the pieces in play, and maybe occasionally nudge them in the directions it wants them to go. It can't force them to complete the mission though: If the Pattern starts to "stray" from it's intended design rails, the best the Wheel can do is drop a few Ta'veren into the mix and hope they pull it back on course, rather than causing it to go off the rails all together.

[rhorle]

Shouldn't have to point this out, but you are confusing the Pattern and the Wheel. The Pattern has no agency. It is purely a product of the weaving of the Wheel. The Wheel does (at least as far as the books indicate) have agency: It actively can step in to attempt to "correct" problems in the pattern. Notice I say "attempt".

The wheel creates the pattern and the pattern creates the will of the wheel. The wheel doesn't actively step in to anything it just creates Ta'veren to change the pattern. If the weaving nudges you in specific directions then it has agency which contradicts your claim it does not. Strange right?

Towards the end of the books the Dark One starts to change the pattern. Buildings, towns, etc all shift and become different. The tower had people trapped in rooms that no longer had doors for example. Balefire can also be dangerous because it changes the entire domino chain of the pattern. If X is removed that entire weave no longer exists to create the specific events of that weave.

The pattern is fate. The wheel is what creates the fate. Ta'veren make changes after the fact because nothing about the cosmos is active. It is all "set and forget".

[Geckoo]

I finally finished watching the whole season and i have to reafirm my initial assesment: It's your average mediocre fantasy show with terrible writing and really bad casting. There is some high production value to be found, but it's mostly misplaced and i don't think this will last for too many seasons unless they make a massive change of course in terms of script or, most probably, drop the quality on those aspects that still have some.

[Arikara]

Ta'veren contradict your statements.

yes, sounds like gross misunderstanding on your part, alright.

I will repeat: the Pattern does not act. It does not have an agenda. Yet it happens anyway.

[jdbond]

Wheel can't "empower" people. It can nudge right people in right direction but it certainly can't give you superhuman abilities. Suppose Wheel needs a person to survive. Then instead of letting that person become super man, he/she will have 50 guards.

It can "nudge" but it can't make people what they are not!
Pattern is a thing that Wheel creates. Pattern has no mind!

Sigh...

[Surfd]

The wheel creates the pattern and the pattern creates the will of the wheel. The wheel doesn't actively step in to anything it just creates Ta'veren to change the pattern. If the weaving nudges you in specific directions then it has agency which contradicts your claim it does not. Strange right?

Towards the end of the books the Dark One starts to change the pattern. Buildings, towns, etc all shift and become different. The tower had people trapped in rooms that no longer had doors for example. Balefire can also be dangerous because it changes the entire domino chain of the pattern. If X is removed that entire weave no longer exists to create the specific events of that weave.

The pattern is fate. The wheel is what creates the fate. Ta'veren make changes after the fact because nothing about the cosmos is active. It is all "set and forget".

Again, no.

The Pattern itself has no agency. Saying that the pattern creates the Will of the Wheel in an attempt to give the Pattern Agency is like saying that thread woven by a weaver while making a shirt has agency because it pulls other threads in one direction or another, while completely ignoring that it is the Weaver that is pulling the thread itself.

The Pattern does not intentionally nudge you in a direction. The Wheel does that while weaving the pattern. The Wheel has the agency, not the Pattern. Changes in the Pattern caused by other threads are reactive, not proactive, hense no agency. Pulling a thread out of the pattern resulting in a domino effect of changes re-balefire for example, is a reactive shift: it is simply the Pattern adjusting to a change, nothing more. If the Wheel weaves a thread into a specific place, that can exert pressure on other threads, but that is the agency of the wheel acting, not the agency of the pattern. The Pattern only reacts.

It may be a strange concept to accept, but when it comes to Wheel of Time: The Wheel has agency, and the individual Threads have agency, but the Pattern does not. The Pattern is simply a result. First of the Weaving of the Wheel, Second of the Actions of the Threads once the Wheel has placed them. The Threads can exert influence on eachother, which shift the Pattern, but the Pattern has no active agency, it simply responds like a great web, shifting in response to the actions of the threads. This may create the "appearance" of agency, as the actions of a specific Thread may have ripple effects that shift the Pattern in another place somewhere far away or seemingly unrelated, but that is not the Pattern "acting", simply the Pattern adjusting.

And no, the Pattern is not Fate, because as previously mentioned, nothing is "fixed". There is a general Pattern the Wheel wants things to follow, but it has no absolute control over if that Pattern is actually followed. It can attempt to guide things, but it can not guarantee they end up going where it wants.

[rhorle]

yes, sounds like gross misunderstanding on your part, alright. I will repeat: the Pattern does not act. It does not have an agenda. Yet it happens anyway.

The pattern does act because it is what creates and causes everything. It is like computer code that does things when it is programmed to do. It certainly does have an agenda. To do what it was programmed to by the Creator (who created the wheel that creates the pattern). It is why the Dark One is a threat. Because he wants control of the wheel and pattern to make everything in his image.

The pattern isn't conscious but it certainly does have an agenda.

[Flurryfang]

So it seems like season 1 made a good enough foundation for future seasons. It leads a lot of things open and have enough stuff for a season 2.

I do also hear alot of people around say, that "don't worry about season 1, they just need a start and then they can improve over time", and that we will see the series go closer to the books later on.
I get that. The Witcher season 2 did get better in season 2 and is starting to get better to the popular version of the the Witcher, so there is hope.


BUT..... I think the biggest problem, that the WoT show have, is that it has burnt SO MANY bridges. So much of the whole story have been sacrificed on the burning pyre to create the story of season 1 and it just makes everything, that comes after so more hollow and lack potential.

It is such a shame, that the magic has been turnt up to 11 already in the first season. It is so sad, that Egwenes and Nyaneves journey of discovery and practice have been lost and it is hurting my soul to know, that the great battle tactics and valor, that the human soldiers have in the books, have been thrown out completly.

So much is lost in this show as a book reader, that i just can't make myself watch this show anymore...

[rhorle]

The Pattern itself has no agency. Saying that the pattern creates the Will of the Wheel in an attempt to give the Pattern Agency is like saying that thread woven by a weaver while making a shirt has agency because it pulls other threads in one direction or another, while completely ignoring that it is the Weaver that is pulling the thread itself.

No. A shirt is a shirt. The pattern controls all life, events, and things. It happens as woven and people are directed to do things as the pattern requires in order for things to do. You can have agency without being conscious or alive. You are also contradicting yourself. You state the pattern does not intentionally nudge you in a direction when you just got done saying that the pattern nudges you.

The Pattern does not intentionally nudge you in a direction.

So no, the pattern isn't "Fixed Fate", but it does have "guided" fate: Ie, the weaving may nudge you in specific directions, but it will not act to "guarantee" you make it to your destination.

The pattern is fate because things are fixed. Not on the micro level but on the macro level. Just because the wheel doesn't control the pattern doesn't mean things are not fixed along that pattern. The Wheel just doesn't actively do anything to control the pattern. It creates it and things work along the paths of fate the wheel laid out. Things can go wrong either by chance or by the Dark Ones taint. Or the pattern that was created isn't strong enough to do the changes so a Ta'veren is created to ensure things happen according to fate.

[Triceron]

BUT..... I think the biggest problem, that the WoT show have, is that it has burnt SO MANY bridges. So much of the whole story have been sacrificed on the burning pyre to create the story of season 1 and it just makes everything, that comes after so more hollow and lack potential.

---
So much is lost in this show as a book reader, that i just can't make myself watch this show anymore...

The WoT showrunner doesn't seem to care much about adhering to the books at all, whereas the Witcher showrunners seem to at least make a stronger appeal towards presenting the tone and feel of the stories from the books.

[rhorle]

It can "nudge" but it can't make people what they are not!

The entire book shows us the pattern making people into something else entirely. It is how a shepherd from the Two Rivers is made into the Dragon Reborn by the events the pattern is fullfilling. Or a blacksmith into a king. Or a prankster into a tactical genius consort. The characters were not objectively those things at the start and it is only by following the events of the pattern that transformed them into those things.

It is why the prophecies exist. They get a glimpse of the pattern. It is also why the Dark One can be such a threat. He can alter the pattern and change things. Like we see on the show (and books) when Rand is tempted to live an entirely different life. Or we get glimpses in the portal worlds that are "alternate" paths of the "main" pattern.

"Most of it sounded like this. 'If a woman go left, or right, does Time's flow divide? Does the Wheel then weave two Patterns? A thousand, for each of her turnings? As many as the stars? Is one real, the others merely shadows and reflections?' ." https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Mirrors_of_the_Wheel

[Shadowferal]

So it seems like season 1 made a good enough foundation for future seasons. It leads a lot of things open and have enough stuff for a season 2.

Amazon approved season 2 before the first episode aired. That was little more than a pr stunt.

[Snowfunk]

I have a friend, who is a huge fan of the books, so I watch it to be able to discuss the show with him.
I have not read the books, nor do I plan to. But the core story seems "alright", but the writing for the show is not great.

Ms Pike is carrying the show pretty hard for me, a lot of the casting just falls flat, possibly due to how the characters they are meant to portray are being presented/written.
As I said, I didn't read the books, but many of the characters are just so annoying, total teen drama cliches.

For being advertised as a "big" deal, an expensive production, it falls really flat. A lot of times it just looks bad and cheap.
I don't get why everyone keep changing outfit so often, and always look so clean and polished.

I wasn't expecting this rival Game of Thrones in any sense, but even with a decent budget, it really fails do any better than many of the cheap & lame fantasy series out there. It's simply not anything special at all.

I'll probably watch the second season, for the sake my friend. And if it doesn't step up it's production quality, I doubt we'll see a third.

[Xath]

Amazon approved season 2 before the first episode aired. That was little more than a pr stunt.

No but see the show that barely kept pace with yellowstone on freaking paramount+ is super amazing and definitely worth 10 mil an episode it wasn't approved beforehand as a pr stunt no way.

[h8ryan]

I had never heard of WoT prior to amazon prime and think the show is alright, not sure why ya'll are whining so much about a very derivative fantasy show

[Xath]

I had never heard of WoT prior to amazon prime and think the show is alright, not sure why ya'll are whining so much about a very derivative fantasy show

The books aren't; the show on the other hand is trash.

[Shadowferal]

I had never heard of WoT prior to amazon prime and think the show is alright, not sure why ya'll are whining so much about a very derivative fantasy show

Read the books. Then you'll join us in our tasty toasty hate.

[Mihalik]

I don't get why everyone keep changing outfit so often, and always look so clean and polished.

This is a rather odd complaint.

It's pseudo medieval fantasy. And the whole "flithy unwashed grimy" middle ages is really just Victorian fiction perpetuated by Hollywood.

People in the middle ages very often dressed quite flamboyantly. They cleaned, they washed and they absolutely obsessed with colour to a degree we would find absolutely gaudy. Bright colors, yellow, blue, red, green. Armors were painted, guided, decorated.

Black wasn't a thing well into the late 16th century.

People from peasant to King washed and they took as much pride in their appearance and fashion sense as people do today. They were willing to pay insane amounts for cloth and textiles from Persia, India, China.

Characters like the Aes Sedai sit very high in the social hierarchy. It's normal they have fancy drrsses and their wardens would be give similar treatment.

[Rennadrel]

I had never heard of WoT prior to amazon prime and think the show is alright, not sure why ya'll are whining so much about a very derivative fantasy show

Aside from a few willful idiots, anyone who has actually read the books will concede that it's mediocre at best, and absolute trash at worst. It's so far off from the story the books told that it's ridiculous and does a significant disservice to who the actual protagonists are in the story by treating them like absolute fucking shit while propping up garbage writing of the female characters and making them look far stronger than they actually were at this point in the story. Seriously, the story doesn't need forced diversity or propping up female characters over the protagonists because Robert Jordan wrote the universe to be diverse and there's tons of great female characters that have their time to shine in the series. This show won't make it past two seasons and the writers will be the reason why. And no, I won't be sad about it. I'd rather see an animated series done by a Japanese studio anyway since it would be way more entertaining and have much better production value.