[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Mazza]

Again you compare it to other shows when they don't matter. A show doesn't have to beat every show in existence just to be considered a success. You keep creating a whole list of "What abouts" simply because you can't accept that the show has had success despite your disdain and any of its flaws.

And of course it won't compare to Lord of the Rings. Amazon paid $250 million just for the rights and it is rumored to have a $1 billion budget. Those things coming out won't magically erase views of the show that already happened. It is also amusing you mention reacher when people are already complaining that it is flawed since the main character is to tall and jacked. But hey it is going to be a success just because you say so, right?

I guess success will be measured by the season 2 viewership. As a very crude and simplified comparison, imo, Solo tanked at the box office due to The Last Jedi being bad. As it stands now personally I see no reason to continue watching WoT. Time will tell how many others do feel like giving that second season a shot.

[Gigantique]

I guess success will be measured by the season 2 viewership. As a very crude and simplified comparison, imo, Solo tanked at the box office due to The Last Jedi being bad. As it stands now personally I see no reason to continue watching WoT. Time will tell how many others do feel like giving that second season a shot.

I know I fall under that category. Watched episode... uh, 6? (Last thing that happened was stoic Lan having a banshee scream at side character 3's death) and I have no interest in more sadly. Never had a media release crash my hype so hard and fast before, but I'm prob gonna read the books again as a detox!

[Coniferous]

I know I fall under that category. Watched episode... uh, 6? (Last thing that happened was stoic Lan having a banshee scream at side character 3's death) and I have no interest in more sadly. Never had a media release crash my hype so hard and fast before, but I'm prob gonna read the books again as a detox!

Ugh, so many bad things were packed into the show that I completely forgot about the Lan thing, which was, also, truly terrible.

[Grimbold21]

Still using viewership as a measure of a product's quality?

Good old conflation of quality with popularity

[Shadowferal]

Still using viewership as a measure of a product's quality? Good old conflation of quality with popularity

Popularity pays the bills.

[kenn9530]

snip

TV adaptations have nothing to do with the current fan base, most ppl dont read books and i have not even once heard of wheel of time, the TV shows are targetted at the ppl who watch nothing but TV and that value is much higher than a books fanbase, more ppl want to watch something rather than read, so TV adaptations dont ruin anything, you still have the book series.

Popularity will get a tv series more seasons, otherwise it will just get cancelled. Book readers just have too high expectations on books they like so most of the time they will think the tv series sucks even when its actually decent.

[Shadowferal]

Book readers just have too high expectations on books they like so most of the time they will think the tv series sucks even when its actually decent.

And are you suggesting that this "series" is decent?

Image floating to illustrate how terrible and inconsistent the show is; https://preview.redd.it/1t74j2x8r488...=webp&5861cfc6

[Coniferous]

TV adaptations have nothing to do with the current fan base, most ppl dont read books and i have not even once heard of wheel of time, the TV shows are targetted at the ppl who watch nothing but TV and that value is much higher than a books fanbase, more ppl want to watch something rather than read, so TV adaptations dont ruin anything, you still have the book series.

Popularity will get a tv series more seasons, otherwise it will just get cancelled. Book readers just have too high expectations on books they like so most of the time they will think the tv series sucks even when its actually decent.

They why even bother with an adaptation? Why not just build your own show?

[rhorle]

Thinking like this is the reason we can't fail kids in school, call every last one of them "promising" .....

Yet you and others are the ones calling anything but the most exceptional show as failure. There is much more between F (fail) and A+ (perfect) for school grades. Acknowledging that there is more then a binary pass/fail is not the problematic thinking.

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What will you say when this mess of a show gets cancelled?

That it got cancelled. Even good shows end. Currently it is successful despite all the hate you and others keep holding on to and goal post moving that is done. It isn't exceptional but it is still decent.

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I guess success will be measured by the season 2 viewership. As a very crude and simplified comparison, imo, Solo tanked at the box office due to The Last Jedi being bad. As it stands now personally I see no reason to continue watching WoT. Time will tell how many others do feel like giving that second season a shot.

So we can't judge a TV show by viewership but we can judge solo by viewership? And yes Season 2 will decide if the show remains successful or not.

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Still using viewership as a measure of a product's quality? Good old conflation of quality with popularity

How else is a Television show supposed to indicate how much money it is gaining? When ads are sold viewership is what determines price and interest. For streaming platforms that don't have ads they use it to indicate how much money it brought to the platform. Even low quality shows can still make boat loads of money. Just look at most "reality tv".

[Triceron]

I've often wondered why a man like Rafe will do this, or the men in the industry that go along with this.. afterall, nothing is ever done by women alone, not at this level, , if it happens, men have had to allowed it and vice versa, especially when you see male showrunners, execs, etc going along with nonsense.

i ask why?

Anecdotally speaking, some gay people I know in my life have quite a big chip on their shoulder from the treatment they've had growing up in a world that never accepted them. Only in recent years has it been more acceptable, otherwise in the early 80's and 90's we're talking about the word 'Gay' being synonymous with 'Lame'. Homophobia was very clearly part of mainstream culture, and 'that's Gay!' is something that you'd find people even saying in movies in the 90's.

And whatever the conditions that molded these people to feeling as though the world is against them, whether they were bullied or had some sort of traumatic past, it seems to me that there is a resentment for the world around them, and a need to change it. That's why Pride parades are such a big deal, because it's one of the few ways that people can be open about themselves and not fear hiding their true selves. And to be honest, it's not a life that we could really ever understand, because we never lived through having to hide ourselves from ridicule. I mean look at us now, we're each and every one of us hiding behind anonymous identities and expressing opinions with no accountability to our real lives.

It's the idea that the world didn't accept them, and the idea that the paradigm of society could be informed and rebuilt into one that is accepting of all. And honestly, what better way than through Fiction? Where the rules of the worlds can be defined through the stroke of a pen. It's an expression of a world that could have been, that doesn't have the same taboos over sexual preference, who all accept it as the norm.

So why downplay the men? Because men were the ones who caused the bullying and the ridicule. 'Toxic masculinity' is perceived as the core root of the need for change in order for society to be free of its taboos. And that's what Wheel of Time was to him when he read it, having read about a world where our social sexual taboos were accepted, and Aes Sedai could freely explore same-sex relationships during their apprenticeships, and some can take up partnerships with multiple Wardens. And thus, we have Wheel of Time being filtered through the world views of a show runner who wants to express a world without our own societal taboos over sexuality. One where men were not masculine, thus had no need to become toxic. One where females were elevated to positions of power and potential. And to be honest, it's not a bad thing. It's just not quite fitting for most people's expectation and interpretation of the Wheel of Time universe, where it absolutely is a male-centric power fantasy, regardless of how important females are as well in the world.

And when they're faced with people who are criticizing the changes? Well, to them, it's a 'either you're with us or against us' mentality, where if you resist accepting the new norms, then you're no better than the toxic masculines that hurt them in the past. And they've grown a thick skin around not listening to those who resist accepting their changes, so any means of criticism and course correction back to the book would fall on deaf ears.

I just want to be clear that Feminism and Equality are not bad things. They are noble goals with noble intentions. The problem with these concepts are that they are over-exposed and exhausting to listen to. It's just like the Tinker Class in Gen Disc; people get tired of the over-exposure Tinker talk more than they actually hate the class concept itself. That's pretty much how Feminism is today, the concept has become irritating and ineffective as a noble intention for change.

In the context of Wheel of Time, it's a case of shoehorning ideals that really shouldn't be altering the books in such a way that has made main characters hollow reflections of their book selves. Overall, I don't have a problem with Wheel of Time show's societal depiction, but I do think it's jarring and uncomfortable seeing some favourite characters acting completely vulnerable when they were always meant to be stoic or aloof. I have similar regards to the racial depictions of entire cultures and societies, where it just doesn't make sense to the world itself to have so many cultures represented equally in every locale.

[Shadowferal]

That it got cancelled. Even good shows end. Currently it is successful despite all the hate you and others keep holding on to and goal post moving that is done. It isn't exceptional but it is still decent.

That will make it a failure. Meaning you'd be wrong no matter how you qualify or spin your bullshit.
...and I will wallow in the shadenfreude of everyone that imagined this show was anything other than the hot garbage it was.

[rhorle]

That will make it a failure. Meaning you'd be wrong no matter how you qualify or spin your bullshit.
...and I will wallow in the shadenfreude of everyone that imagined this show was anything other than the hot garbage it was.

A show being canceled doesn't mean past seasons were a failure. Every show ever made eventually ends. Game of Thrones was canceled because they choose not to do a season 9. Was Game of Thrones a failure? You aren't interested in logic here but simply in telling me I'm wrong no matter what because you dislike the show so it can never be called anything but a failure.

[Shadowferal]

A show being canceled doesn't mean past seasons were a failure. Every show ever made eventually ends. Game of Thrones was canceled because they choose not to do a season 9. Was Game of Thrones a failure? You aren't interested in logic here but simply in telling me I'm wrong no matter what because you dislike the show so it can never be called anything but a failure.

Only two seasons in...that makes it a failure.

Stop with your puerile attempt at logic. It's as much as a failure as this show is.

[rhorle]

Only two seasons in...that makes it a failure. Stop with your puerile attempt at logic. It's as much as a failure as this show is.

It still makes Season 1 a success and more then shows that get cancelled after a few episodes. The only child here is yourself who can't accept that something they don't like can be succesful. So you lash out and insult anyone who won't hate on something that you do.

[Coniferous]

TV adaptations have nothing to do with the current fan base, most ppl dont read books and i have not even once heard of wheel of time, the TV shows are targetted at the ppl who watch nothing but TV and that value is much higher than a books fanbase, more ppl want to watch something rather than read, so TV adaptations dont ruin anything, you still have the book series.

Popularity will get a tv series more seasons, otherwise it will just get cancelled. Book readers just have too high expectations on books they like so most of the time they will think the tv series sucks even when its actually decent.

To follow up, I completely disagree with this - the current fan base is an important part of a show like this. These are the people most likely to watch it from the beginning and if they like it, encourage others to do the same.

[Shadowferal]

It still makes Season 1 a success and more then shows that get cancelled after a few episodes. The only child here is yourself who can't accept that something they don't like can be succesful. So you lash out and insult anyone who won't hate on something that you do.

That would make every show with one season a success by your standard. And the only argument you have is purely on your say so. This a child's logic...the same logic that celebrated a group of Aes Sedai that had a tough time defending themselves against a mob while a few wilders decimated thousands of trollocs and dozens of fades...which of course made logical coherent sense to you.

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Something you'll never see...Falme all lit up.

[Grimbold21]

Y
How else is a Television show supposed to indicate how much money it is gaining? When ads are sold viewership is what determines price and interest. For streaming platforms that don't have ads they use it to indicate how much money it brought to the platform. Even low quality shows can still make boat loads of money. Just look at most "reality tv".

That's all nice and well, but none of that determines quality, especially good quality.

As I wrote previously on this thread, if these were the criteria by which quality were measured, then Diablo 3 - at least early on - would've been considered an amazing game because it sold millions. But that's not the truth is it? It did so because, much like with so many media today, it capitalized on a brand highly treasured by its community.

Edit: You can argue, however, that it (the show) was a success because it made the production company money. That's fine, but to argue that this translates into a product of good quality is being naive or disingenous. Unless you're prepared to say Fifa, Battlefield or Assassin's Creed games are top notch

[Coniferous]

It still makes Season 1 a success and more then shows that get cancelled after a few episodes. The only child here is yourself who can't accept that something they don't like can be succesful. So you lash out and insult anyone who won't hate on something that you do.

Given that this show is based on intellectual property that Amazon probably paid a pretty penny for (it’s not published but let’s say it’s 50 million, which honestly seems a bit low), then no, one full season is not a success.

[Triceron]

They why even bother with an adaptation? Why not just build your own show?

Building a new IP/brand from the ground up is more difficult than you think.

Would we even be talking about this show if it were called 'The World that Turns' which no one has ever heard about or cared about? Would Amazon put 10m/episode behind a seemingly generic fantasy concept that has no real fanbase or hype behind it? It's a difficult pitch, one that would never have been greenlit as an original IP.

The IP was picked because it has been a proven success. Same as Witcher and Game of Thrones. Same as adaptations like Man in the High Castle and the Expanse. They don't have as many of the associated risks as say having to build a brand up from absolute obscurity. It's not just about having people know about it, but also about gaining the confidence of the big corporate execs who are fronting big money and expecting it to yield a success. Trying to convince 'The World that Turns' will be a big success? Difficult. Using the Wheel of Time and presenting the already existing fanbase who wants a TV adaptation? Much more reasonable.

[Coniferous]

Building a new IP/brand from the ground up is more difficult than you think.

Would we even be talking about this show if it were called 'The World that Turns' which no one has ever heard about or cared about? Would Amazon put 10m/episode behind a seemingly generic fantasy concept that has no real fanbase or hype behind it? It's a difficult pitch, one that would never have been greenlit as an original IP.

The IP was picked because it has been a proven success. Same as Witcher and Game of Thrones. Same as adaptations like Man in the High Castle and the Expanse. They don't have as many of the associated risks as say having to build a brand up from absolute obscurity. It's not just about having people know about it, but also about gaining the confidence of the big corporate execs who are fronting big money and expecting it to yield a success. Trying to convince 'The World that Turns' will be a big success? Difficult. Using the Wheel of Time and presenting the already existing fanbase who wants a TV adaptation? Much more reasonable.

Oh I agree, I was just responding to the poster who said the current fan base is irrelevant.