[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Corvus]

The defilement of the corpse continues. Rafe has said it is important to continue the Egwene/Perrin pairing in season 2.

[Triceron]

Hate has never been rational, and still doesn't make sense.

Most of these male hating ultra feminist groups (down with the patriarchy, and men are the scum of the earth) are funny because in every area, tehy basically emulate men and want to be just like the. They are basically women playing men. It is so male centric.

But then they never wanted equality, what they wanted was to swap places.. because they are so man focused, they think it's amazing and worth grabbing for.. it's the weirdest most psychologicall broken from of flattery. Love and hate. And no, they aren't all lesbians.

Well it doesn't make sense because you're looking at it from the wrong angle.

You think that this stems from hate of the patriarchy, leading to an effort to promote some gender-swapped alternative where the patriarchy doesn't exist. I don't think it's coming from hate. I think it's coming from spite. It's coming from schadenfreude.

It's kinda clear to me from Rafe's own tweets that he enjoys pissing off people who get bitter over his changes. He flouts his power and he does little things that get under people's skin, and he openly admits enjoying it. So it actually makes sense that he's doing this because it pleases him to do so. These changes aren't coming from a place of hate, it's possibly coming from a twisted sense of pleasure from other people's misery.



That being said, I don't really condone his actions, since MMO-champion forums are basically a breeding ground for this type of activity. I actually admire him for being able to troll the masses while he has the power to do so, all while profiting off of it and having a big corporation's full support behind him. Literally a professional troll.

[Nynax]

The Dark One can win. Breaking free of his prison is winning because he would no longer be contained and would have free reign to do whatever he wants. The creator imprisoned him at the moment of creation and did it outside of the pattern. If the Dark One can never win and can never do more then the pattern allows it devalues the entire struggle and story.

Because there is no point to any of it. The Dark One can never do more then fate, the pattern, decides for that cycle. And the "creator" forces don't have to do anything because the Dark One is never at risk of being free from his prison. Fortunately your assertion isn't back up by anything in the books.

Just because you know the future, doesn't mean you don't have to live the experience of getting there. The pattern, and this story, is the experience of getting there.

(see plenty of related monotheistic religious discussions on free will and what it would mean if God is truly omniscient.)

[Xath]

The defilement of the corpse continues. Rafe has said it is important to continue the Egwene/Perrin pairing in season 2.

It's certainly interesting to watch a person destroy any possible career they could have after to take a series that has sold nearly 100 million copies and turn it into a failure while being given a 10 mil an episode budget is almost impressive.

[rhorle]

It's certainly interesting to watch a person destroy any possible career they could have after to take a series that has sold nearly 100 million copies and turn it into a failure while being given a 10 mil an episode budget is almost impressive.

Week two had another 663 million minutes watched. (https://www.nielsen.com/us/en/top-ten/). The show is hardly a failure just because you, and others, are vocal about your disdain and can't move on or let it go.

[Xath]

Week two had another 663 million minutes watched. (https://www.nielsen.com/us/en/top-ten/). The show is hardly a failure just because you, and others, are vocal about your disdain and can't move on or let it go.

It's a failure because it's barely on level with Yellowstone which is on Paramount+ which is super super niche in terms of userbase also only costs 5 mil per episode or half as much. Witcher S2 blew it's doors off and Arcane did the same several weeks before. Wait until the new amazon stuff like Reacher comes out as well let alone LoTR.

Also expect a lot of people who are book fans to not bother with watching season 2 of the train wreck.

[rhorle]

It's a failure because it's barely on level with Yellowstone which is on Paramount+ which is super super niche in terms of userbase also only costs 5 mil per episode or half as much. Witcher S2 blew it's doors off and Arcane did the same several weeks before. Wait until the new amazon stuff like Reacher comes out as well let alone LoTR.Also expect a lot of people who are book fans to not bother with watching season 2 of the train wreck.

Again you compare it to other shows when they don't matter. A show doesn't have to beat every show in existence just to be considered a success. You keep creating a whole list of "What abouts" simply because you can't accept that the show has had success despite your disdain and any of its flaws.

And of course it won't compare to Lord of the Rings. Amazon paid $250 million just for the rights and it is rumored to have a $1 billion budget. Those things coming out won't magically erase views of the show that already happened. It is also amusing you mention reacher when people are already complaining that it is flawed since the main character is to tall and jacked. But hey it is going to be a success just because you say so, right?

[Mace]

Well it doesn't make sense because you're looking at it from the wrong angle.

You think that this stems from hate of the patriarchy, leading to an effort to promote some gender-swapped alternative where the patriarchy doesn't exist. I don't think it's coming from hate. I think it's coming from spite. It's coming from schadenfreude.

It's kinda clear to me from Rafe's own tweets that he enjoys pissing off people who get bitter over his changes. He flouts his power and he does little things that get under people's skin, and he openly admits enjoying it. So it actually makes sense that he's doing this because it pleases him to do so. These changes aren't coming from a place of hate, it's possibly coming from a twisted sense of pleasure from other people's misery.



That being said, I don't really condone his actions, since MMO-champion forums are basically a breeding ground for this type of activity. I actually admire him for being able to troll the masses while he has the power to do so, all while profiting off of it and having a big corporation's full support behind him. Literally a professional troll.

I've often wondered why a man like Rafe will do this, or the men in the industry that go along with this.. afterall, nothing is ever done by women alone, not at this level, , if it happens, men have had to allowed it and vice versa, especially when you see male showrunners, execs, etc going along with nonsense.

i ask why?

1. Greed - these guys have been duped by activists who disguise their bad numbers by blaming fans "toxic fandom" , or pandemic for their failures, and then point to the trending metrics and the twitteratti crowd and their bought reviews that it's actually quite popular, so shoudln't be fired, and this si where the money is. Covid seriosly brought them a couple of years to continue on this nonsense, hiding the failure.. and the greedy men, buy the b/s from the execs, especially if he's banging her thinking that this is the best way to get the money and be profitable, or it will be in time. It's taken 2 years of failure, for higher execs to see this is b/s - it's clearly not working - and is exactly why AT&T sold WB and Discovery is clearing house of the activists and the fools that have been listening to them.

2. Perv y and weak /don't care - it's anyone of these, the guy loves chicks so much, and probably the girl he is trying to bang is one of those femmes, so basically does what she says, and/or he is so into the woman, he does everything to please her, and blow her up. In fact he gets jealous of the male characters, sometimes even the actors - because he is weak or doesn't care

3. Avatar/self transference. Like a video game male that plays a female character because she is hot, then basically transfers himself to her.. so sometimes thsee very male feeling female characters are actually written by males, and the actress or female character is basically like his video game character - totally male minded.

4. Spite: yes some of them it's spite, they seriously are moved enough and arrogant enough to be offended by angry fans they actually fuck things up just to spite these people..

5. Cabal/conspiracy/activist/anarchy/social change - some are dead into this, anything that breaks down the cultural norm, whether it's harmful or not, they are so into their activism, they would allow terrible portrayals...lopsided even against their own gender, or themselves, because it's now about tribes and their groups .. and if you're in the activist group, you like an idiot go along "for the group" because can't think for ourselves


Could be any of these or all of these, and so they allow it.. some of these people are rich, but they are not wise. It's easy for them, they are arrogant, they take their luck and the opportunities that come there way, likely because of those that came before them, and think for some reason they are better than others. They don't work hard, they don't pay attention, they just like barking orders, and allow others to actually do the work. Just so happens that now the industry is full of activists that are actually doing the work and these arrogant men have no choice but to listen to what they say.

how do these men get tot hat position, because they knew how to use other people and ride on their talent and success, but the underlings have change, the activists are now the helpers and don't care about profits, only about message...and many of these arrogant men just go along with it, were never qualified to hold their positions and were really only good at being loud and bossy.

[jdbond]

Again you compare it to other shows when they don't matter. A show doesn't have to beat every show in existence just to be considered a success. You keep creating a whole list of "What abouts" simply because you can't accept that the show has had success despite your disdain and any of its flaws.

Thinking like this is the reason we can't fail kids in school, call every last one of them "promising" .....

I hope to not see this world come to life, truly!

We can always appreciate whatever good tv we were given.

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It's a failure because it's barely on level with Yellowstone which is on Paramount+ which is super super niche in terms of userbase also only costs 5 mil per episode or half as much. Witcher S2 blew it's doors off and Arcane did the same several weeks before. Wait until the new amazon stuff like Reacher comes out as well let alone LoTR.

Also expect a lot of people who are book fans to not bother with watching season 2 of the train wreck.

I wonder what were the "viewing minutes" for episode 5,6, 7 and 8. Likely dropping hard.


But as you have heard, even "mediocrity" has a place. It is your fault for expecting something grand.

- - - Updated - - -

The defilement of the corpse continues. Rafe has said it is important to continue the Egwene/Perrin pairing in season 2.

haa..This will atleast give some screen minutes to Perrin. I am shocked that guy playing Perrin has not left the show. Outside of Lan, Perrin has least to do in show. Likely even less than Lan! Stephin had more character development than Perrin.

So chill!

[Shadowferal]

Week two had another 663 million minutes watched. (https://www.nielsen.com/us/en/top-ten/). The show is hardly a failure just because you, and others, are vocal about your disdain and can't move on or let it go.

What will you say when this mess of a show gets cancelled? Because it's at "Cowboy Bepop" level now. It didn't have much in the way of competition, and should have won over a enough of a viewership to justify your saccharin adoration. Indeed, I don't think Amazon has a safe timeslot to release the 2nd season without proving it can't survive going against any competition.

[Mazza]

Again you compare it to other shows when they don't matter. A show doesn't have to beat every show in existence just to be considered a success. You keep creating a whole list of "What abouts" simply because you can't accept that the show has had success despite your disdain and any of its flaws.

And of course it won't compare to Lord of the Rings. Amazon paid $250 million just for the rights and it is rumored to have a $1 billion budget. Those things coming out won't magically erase views of the show that already happened. It is also amusing you mention reacher when people are already complaining that it is flawed since the main character is to tall and jacked. But hey it is going to be a success just because you say so, right?

I guess success will be measured by the season 2 viewership. As a very crude and simplified comparison, imo, Solo tanked at the box office due to The Last Jedi being bad. As it stands now personally I see no reason to continue watching WoT. Time will tell how many others do feel like giving that second season a shot.

[Gigantique]

I guess success will be measured by the season 2 viewership. As a very crude and simplified comparison, imo, Solo tanked at the box office due to The Last Jedi being bad. As it stands now personally I see no reason to continue watching WoT. Time will tell how many others do feel like giving that second season a shot.

I know I fall under that category. Watched episode... uh, 6? (Last thing that happened was stoic Lan having a banshee scream at side character 3's death) and I have no interest in more sadly. Never had a media release crash my hype so hard and fast before, but I'm prob gonna read the books again as a detox!

[Coniferous]

I know I fall under that category. Watched episode... uh, 6? (Last thing that happened was stoic Lan having a banshee scream at side character 3's death) and I have no interest in more sadly. Never had a media release crash my hype so hard and fast before, but I'm prob gonna read the books again as a detox!

Ugh, so many bad things were packed into the show that I completely forgot about the Lan thing, which was, also, truly terrible.

[Grimbold21]

Still using viewership as a measure of a product's quality?

Good old conflation of quality with popularity

[Shadowferal]

Still using viewership as a measure of a product's quality? Good old conflation of quality with popularity

Popularity pays the bills.

[kenn9530]

snip

TV adaptations have nothing to do with the current fan base, most ppl dont read books and i have not even once heard of wheel of time, the TV shows are targetted at the ppl who watch nothing but TV and that value is much higher than a books fanbase, more ppl want to watch something rather than read, so TV adaptations dont ruin anything, you still have the book series.

Popularity will get a tv series more seasons, otherwise it will just get cancelled. Book readers just have too high expectations on books they like so most of the time they will think the tv series sucks even when its actually decent.

[Shadowferal]

Book readers just have too high expectations on books they like so most of the time they will think the tv series sucks even when its actually decent.

And are you suggesting that this "series" is decent?

Image floating to illustrate how terrible and inconsistent the show is; https://preview.redd.it/1t74j2x8r488...=webp&5861cfc6

[Coniferous]

TV adaptations have nothing to do with the current fan base, most ppl dont read books and i have not even once heard of wheel of time, the TV shows are targetted at the ppl who watch nothing but TV and that value is much higher than a books fanbase, more ppl want to watch something rather than read, so TV adaptations dont ruin anything, you still have the book series.

Popularity will get a tv series more seasons, otherwise it will just get cancelled. Book readers just have too high expectations on books they like so most of the time they will think the tv series sucks even when its actually decent.

They why even bother with an adaptation? Why not just build your own show?

[rhorle]

Thinking like this is the reason we can't fail kids in school, call every last one of them "promising" .....

Yet you and others are the ones calling anything but the most exceptional show as failure. There is much more between F (fail) and A+ (perfect) for school grades. Acknowledging that there is more then a binary pass/fail is not the problematic thinking.

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What will you say when this mess of a show gets cancelled?

That it got cancelled. Even good shows end. Currently it is successful despite all the hate you and others keep holding on to and goal post moving that is done. It isn't exceptional but it is still decent.

- - - Updated - - -

I guess success will be measured by the season 2 viewership. As a very crude and simplified comparison, imo, Solo tanked at the box office due to The Last Jedi being bad. As it stands now personally I see no reason to continue watching WoT. Time will tell how many others do feel like giving that second season a shot.

So we can't judge a TV show by viewership but we can judge solo by viewership? And yes Season 2 will decide if the show remains successful or not.

- - - Updated - - -

Still using viewership as a measure of a product's quality? Good old conflation of quality with popularity

How else is a Television show supposed to indicate how much money it is gaining? When ads are sold viewership is what determines price and interest. For streaming platforms that don't have ads they use it to indicate how much money it brought to the platform. Even low quality shows can still make boat loads of money. Just look at most "reality tv".

[Triceron]

I've often wondered why a man like Rafe will do this, or the men in the industry that go along with this.. afterall, nothing is ever done by women alone, not at this level, , if it happens, men have had to allowed it and vice versa, especially when you see male showrunners, execs, etc going along with nonsense.

i ask why?

Anecdotally speaking, some gay people I know in my life have quite a big chip on their shoulder from the treatment they've had growing up in a world that never accepted them. Only in recent years has it been more acceptable, otherwise in the early 80's and 90's we're talking about the word 'Gay' being synonymous with 'Lame'. Homophobia was very clearly part of mainstream culture, and 'that's Gay!' is something that you'd find people even saying in movies in the 90's.

And whatever the conditions that molded these people to feeling as though the world is against them, whether they were bullied or had some sort of traumatic past, it seems to me that there is a resentment for the world around them, and a need to change it. That's why Pride parades are such a big deal, because it's one of the few ways that people can be open about themselves and not fear hiding their true selves. And to be honest, it's not a life that we could really ever understand, because we never lived through having to hide ourselves from ridicule. I mean look at us now, we're each and every one of us hiding behind anonymous identities and expressing opinions with no accountability to our real lives.

It's the idea that the world didn't accept them, and the idea that the paradigm of society could be informed and rebuilt into one that is accepting of all. And honestly, what better way than through Fiction? Where the rules of the worlds can be defined through the stroke of a pen. It's an expression of a world that could have been, that doesn't have the same taboos over sexual preference, who all accept it as the norm.

So why downplay the men? Because men were the ones who caused the bullying and the ridicule. 'Toxic masculinity' is perceived as the core root of the need for change in order for society to be free of its taboos. And that's what Wheel of Time was to him when he read it, having read about a world where our social sexual taboos were accepted, and Aes Sedai could freely explore same-sex relationships during their apprenticeships, and some can take up partnerships with multiple Wardens. And thus, we have Wheel of Time being filtered through the world views of a show runner who wants to express a world without our own societal taboos over sexuality. One where men were not masculine, thus had no need to become toxic. One where females were elevated to positions of power and potential. And to be honest, it's not a bad thing. It's just not quite fitting for most people's expectation and interpretation of the Wheel of Time universe, where it absolutely is a male-centric power fantasy, regardless of how important females are as well in the world.

And when they're faced with people who are criticizing the changes? Well, to them, it's a 'either you're with us or against us' mentality, where if you resist accepting the new norms, then you're no better than the toxic masculines that hurt them in the past. And they've grown a thick skin around not listening to those who resist accepting their changes, so any means of criticism and course correction back to the book would fall on deaf ears.

I just want to be clear that Feminism and Equality are not bad things. They are noble goals with noble intentions. The problem with these concepts are that they are over-exposed and exhausting to listen to. It's just like the Tinker Class in Gen Disc; people get tired of the over-exposure Tinker talk more than they actually hate the class concept itself. That's pretty much how Feminism is today, the concept has become irritating and ineffective as a noble intention for change.

In the context of Wheel of Time, it's a case of shoehorning ideals that really shouldn't be altering the books in such a way that has made main characters hollow reflections of their book selves. Overall, I don't have a problem with Wheel of Time show's societal depiction, but I do think it's jarring and uncomfortable seeing some favourite characters acting completely vulnerable when they were always meant to be stoic or aloof. I have similar regards to the racial depictions of entire cultures and societies, where it just doesn't make sense to the world itself to have so many cultures represented equally in every locale.