[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Shadowferal]

You guys are still saying "but in the books......" seriously?

He asked about the material in the book. And I've never had a problem aswering any related question regarding such. (I reread them too often)

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If I recall, Rafe did say most of writing team never read the books...

[rhorle]

No.
If you've read the books you'd know that's not how that ever worked.

From Brandon Sanderson when talking about episode 2 and the ferry:

Those are tricky to navigate. For example, it's all right to have a whirlpool made by Moiraine suck down the ferry after Hightower jumped in and swam to it, particularly if she has stopped channeling. It's not okay, though, for her to sink that ferry with lightning while he's on it--even if he's bringing it toward the trollocs, which will put her in danger. https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/comment...n_episode_two/

So yes the three oaths can be exploited to capture or kill a sister. It is the entire reason why the warder bond exists. To have someone that is not bound by the three oaths to protect and look out for the sister when she can not yet act. And of course offer better protection in battle.

[Shadowferal]

From Brandon Sanderson when talking about episode 2 and the ferry: So yes the three oaths can be exploited to capture or kill a sister. It is the entire reason why the warder bond exists. To have someone that is not bound by the three oaths to protect and look out for the sister when she can not yet act. And of course offer better protection in battle.

What part of this has anything to do with White Cloaks?

[Biomega]

Started S2 of Witcher..... we shall see how it goes. The writing is still not great since as a non-book reader for that show, I have no idea where things are and what the stakes are. They didn't world build in that show at all either, so its a lot of mystery and "maybe this will make sense eventually". At least it has good actors and it LOOKS like Netflix spent money on it.

I agree that S1 didn't set up a large narrative, but I think they did do a decent job world-building. Factions are set up, forces are positioned, and even though it's not fully explained it's a solid look into what's going on. S2 builds well on that, and builds the narrative on top of S1's exposition, which I personally think is a good strategy for a series.

It has some serious deviations from the books, and a lot of fans aren't happy about them. However, I think the Witcher series survives this better than WoT does because of the video games, which were already a deviation from the book and had their own fan base. It's basically like a secondary canon, so a tertiary one on TV doesn't clash as harshly. Objectively speaking, there's some problems with the way the show does things in S2 - it's just a softer impact on the viewerbase because it was divided already even before the show.

[Xath]

What part of this has anything to do with White Cloaks?

Absolutely nothing, you are talking to a person who hasn't read the books and just uses the wiki to attempt to make points.

[Shadowferal]

Absolutely nothing, you are talking to a person who hasn't read the books and just uses the wiki to attempt to make points.

He seems determined to reinforce his ignorance about the books. If he ever bothered to read them I suspect he'd feel very differently.

[rhorle]

Yet it never fucking happened in the books

https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Serenia_Latar

They murdered a Amyrlin seat and then hung her corpse. It doesn't say it was the first Aes Sedai so the implication is that will murder one if they can. They believe anyone who channels is a dark friend and one of their core purposes is to find and kill all servants of the shadow. Which means they would attempt to kill a sister if they could. There is a reason why the Aes Sedai have warders after all.

Robert Jordan

For Children of the Light, the Whitecloaks were inspired by the Inquisition, the SS, the Teutonic Knights and others. In fact, they were inspired by all those groups who say, "We know the truth. It is the only truth. You will believe it, or we will kill you." Entry 12 from https://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=211

[Gumble]

Absolutely nothing, you are talking to a person who hasn't read the books and just uses the wiki to attempt to make points.

I'm amazed you all are still arguing with him (or even seeing his posts). Good on you for Don Quiotte'ing a brick wall of ignorance.


Good luck to you all and I hope WoT gets made by competent people some time in the future once this travesty has been forgotten. As it stands I'm done with it. They don't deserve the view and my time is worth more than it. Hope the rest of Witcher is better.

[rhorle]

But what you hear referenced in the books are never from battles with White Cloaks.
As an aside, do you recall one of Niall's last orders before being assassinated?

Isn't that semantics? If they can kill one in battle they can kill one through other means. If they can kill one outside of battle they can kill one in battle. Aes Sedai are not immortal and they are not omnipotent. They can and do die which is the entire reason why warders exist and even then they can still be killed. The 3 oaths limit what they can do until a certain point and then they are free to let loose with the power. Unless it is shadowspawn and then those restrictions do not exist for the most part.

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What part of this has anything to do with White Cloaks?

My comment you responded to was talking about how someone could work around the 3 oaths to kill a sister. White cloaks are part of a group that can do that or are you going to claim that there is some magical force that makes them impotent when an Aes Sedai is around? Why do you think warders exist if there are not groups that are threats to sisters?

When the Children of the Light consider all channelers to be servants of the shadow and they want to kill all servants of the shadow why is it that you think they wouldn't ever be able to kill a sister? You keep calling it ignorance of the book and using insults simply because you are wrong and can't accept it. Lmao.

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Absolutely nothing, you are talking to a person who hasn't read the books and just uses the wiki to attempt to make points.

There is nothing wrong with using a wiki to back up information from the books. You fear anything that can easily disprove your often incorrect arguments. I'm still waiting for you to post your source for Yellowstone streaming viewership numbers but I'll be waiting a long time I fear. That is why you attack me for using information and knowledge over conjecture and hatred.

[Shadowferal]

Isn't that semantics? If they can kill one in battle they can kill one through other means. .

They never killed one in battle. Do yourself a favor and read the books and save yourself from embarrassment.

[Coniferous]

not sure if we watched a different show or what because a blanket frontal light isn’t something I can remember seeing in like any dark scenes.




not sure how you can see a comparison between the sisters and a stuff like this from a ten faire.



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While there might technically be some form of balance in practice there is a much heavier focus on the woman rolls in most of these cases and things like the aes sedai have no balance until like 10 books in with the black tower.

The men pretty much get more big characters while the woman get to run most power structures for most of the series.

That’s really specific to the channelers, as channelers are the most powerful people and they can’t be male. In the books that’s the only place where there’s not balance, and there’s a reason for it (no male channelers).

The show is just “men suck” and so it’s only women in charge.

[Candlewick]

But what you hear referenced in the books are never from battles with White Cloaks.
As an aside, do you recall one of Niall's last orders before being assassinated?

Well yeah if the white coats engaged in open warfare they would be destroyed utterly. I forget the exact number but they only had a few thousands. I can recall it verbatim but it was something about warning and running away from the Hawkeye empire believing them to be aes sedai

[rhorle]

They never killed one in battle. Do yourself a favor and read the books and save yourself from embarrassment.

Okay book expert. What page or wording does it say that they never killed one? It is heavily implied and even one of their high ranking members wants to purge the tower. Also note I never said during a full scale battle. You are the one that moved the goal posts there. Anyone can have an easier time killing a sister if they know how to exploit the 3 oaths and/or catch them unaware. Like when they are sleeping.

...and beyond the Shining Walls a sight of the Flame would send too many people running, to hide or perhaps to fetch the Children of the Light. A Whitecloak's arrow was as fatal to an Aes Sedai as to anyone else, and the Children were to wily to let an Aes Sedai see the bowman before the arrow struck, while she still might do something about it." -The Great Hunt, chapter 4 page 45, Moiraine's POV. https://books.google.com/books?id=tu...page&q&f=false

Here is a passage from the book. You are so caught up in insulting me that you are unable to see when you are actually incorrect about the books. @Xath @Gumble @Coniferous

[Coniferous]

You guys are still saying "but in the books......" seriously? This paltry show has zero to do with the books and is not constrained by them in any fashion. The lore is different, the rules are different, the characters and plot are VASTLY different. I'd say its Wheel of Time in name only, but even that gives it too much credit.

For those that like it.... fine.... I guess they have it for the second season (assuming it doesn't get Cowboy Beeboped and stopped), but that will be it. The show is dropping like a fly and even the most ardent supporters like Daniel Green are saying they wouldn't watch a 2nd season if their channels didn't depend on it.


I finally watched the last two episodes, and they were so bad that they made the ones before them palatable. Episode 7, the ways were ok inside, though so many changes were done that they didn't even notice the plot hole they created of channeling being required to open the waygates, yet the Black Wind coming so fast when channeling happens that it would have been on them when they were leaving without doubt. That and Padan Fain somehow going in and out without channeling.... yea, the inside was nice enough and the feeling was alright for them that I didn't even mind the change in how Machin Shin talked to people. What it did wouldn't drive people mad, so I'm not sure what the point of it was then..... The rest of the episode was CW love triangle drivel and Moiraine utterly lying through her oaths. There was no reason to assume everyone would die at the Eye (as ep8 showed no real danger there). The Lan and Nynaeve was utterly too much, too fast that was amazingly out of character for both of them if they were even attempting to make them like the books. It was written like they have a 14 year old girl doing the scripts....

.... which now that I think about it, ARE the script writers 14 year old girls? That would explain so much and I would be a lot more impressed with their ability while understanding their penchant for childishness.

Episode 8.... lord.... did they throw this together in a week? The CGI is horrible, the fight with Ish was utterly unexplained and non-book readers would assume that Rand just beat the Dark One without Moiraine flat out saying "nope, that wasn't him".... though how she would KNOW that, given she flat out said she was taking Rand to fight THE DARK ONE AT THE EYE..... lol.... so bad. Perrin basically spent the whole episode standing, looking, and going "was that Padan Fain".... which, the ONE GOOD THING was that the actor for Padan Fain is GREAT. He is amazing and I really like him. The change to the horn story and the way it gets into his hands was utterly stupid, but it is made just good enough because that is one of the few decent actors on this show. The girls story..... good lord... I'm just going to call them Captain Marvel at this point. No emotion, nothing to overcome, more plot armor then an immunity shield and written again like a 14 year old would. We are going to walk into the desert and blast the trollocs, but only after Agelmar dies and their army is destroyed because we want to waste life like crazy. Also, thank goodness trollocs don't use bows (in this parallel universe) since a few arrows would have been able to reach and destroy 5 women who didn't sit in a protected keep to channel like a non-moron would.


This episode, and the series, can be summed up best by what someone said about Loial dying by a dagger that the show has TOLD us is not survivable while Rafe assures everyone that he will be back for S2...... "The writers assumed this show would be over at the end of the season, that is why they would kill Loial. He is only expendable like that if you don't think there will be more seasons"

The writers thought it was bad enough to not justify getting more than 1 season. Why Amazon thought it deserved more..... I guess they want to watch it sink to Batwoman levels of non-viewership.



I gave it the whole season, and frankly, outside of the actors for Fain, Valda, Liandrin, and Mat..... everything else about this show was utter crud. It looks cheap, poorly written, rushed, and with zero honor given to the source material. It made me go watch Harry Potter with my wife just to see a book adapted well, and I don't even like those movies.



Started S2 of Witcher..... we shall see how it goes. The writing is still not great since as a non-book reader for that show, I have no idea where things are and what the stakes are. They didn't world build in that show at all either, so its a lot of mystery and "maybe this will make sense eventually". At least it has good actors and it LOOKS like Netflix spent money on it.

Agree with all points - except I think the actress for Moiraine is good, it's just her role is so weird... they can't decide if she's the main character or not (she's not - Rand is, at least in the early books, later on it's more ensemble - but they're trying to make her the main character #girlpower). She even has the ageless face that looks relatively good but she's clearly older based on plastic surgery or whatever hollywood actresses do so they don't look like they age. I just can't get over the first speech of the series, which is just so off target it's insane and was immediately shocking for anyone who is a book fan - it was like, "wait, that's not right... that's not right... this isn't the story at all... let me rewind and check this again". Not how I expected the first 15 seconds of the series to go.

Overall though, the point is that you're not supposed to think too hard. They're mostly ignoring the source material and just making it up as they go, and when you do that there are going to be plot holes (that generally wouldn't be there if you had a coherent narrative, say, one crafted by a writer over 15 years of writing the series?).

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They never killed one in battle. Do yourself a favor and read the books and save yourself from embarrassment.

Just stop feeding the troll. I don't know why he's still here, everyone is disagreeing with him and telling him that everything he says is wrong, but there's always 1 or 2 people left who are still arguing. This has been going on for weeks with this guy.

If it's a Rhorle post or a response to a Rhorle post, just don't pay attention.

[Shadowferal]

Niall's last order was "protect the one calling himself the Dragon Reborn." With the "witches" out in the open (yes, confused with the Seanchan's damane), the rest of the world will see them as they are; enemies to the Light. ("Set loose a rogue lion")

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Just stop feeding the troll. I don't know why he's still here, everyone is disagreeing with him and telling him that everything he says is wrong, but there's always 1 or 2 people left who are still arguing. This has been going on for weeks with this guy.
If it's a Rhorle post or a response to a Rhorle post, just don't pay attention.

Okay...gotta wonder though why he persists in revealing himself...nah. Nevermind.

[Fusilli]

Isn't that semantics? If they can kill one in battle they can kill one through other means. If they can kill one outside of battle they can kill one in battle. Aes Sedai are not immortal and they are not omnipotent. They can and do die which is the entire reason why warders exist and even then they can still be killed. The 3 oaths limit what they can do until a certain point and then they are free to let loose with the power. Unless it is shadowspawn and then those restrictions do not exist for the most part.

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My comment you responded to was talking about how someone could work around the 3 oaths to kill a sister. White cloaks are part of a group that can do that or are you going to claim that there is some magical force that makes them impotent when an Aes Sedai is around? Why do you think warders exist if there are not groups that are threats to sisters?

When the Children of the Light consider all channelers to be servants of the shadow and they want to kill all servants of the shadow why is it that you think they wouldn't ever be able to kill a sister? You keep calling it ignorance of the book and using insults simply because you are wrong and can't accept it. Lmao.

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There is nothing wrong with using a wiki to back up information from the books. You fear anything that can easily disprove your often incorrect arguments. I'm still waiting for you to post your source for Yellowstone streaming viewership numbers but I'll be waiting a long time I fear. That is why you attack me for using information and knowledge over conjecture and hatred.

Whitecloaks in the books are effectively bullies, but ineffective against Aes Sedai. They have an entire country, but due to politics and, of course, Aes Sedai avoiding them, there's no evidence for them actually kiling any Sisters. There's one time when they had a corpse of an Aes Sedai, which they may or may not have been responsible for. I get the impression that they just terrorize the towns, mainly killing wisdoms or similar, probably waylaying women en route to the Tower, burning farms, and similar. Aes Sedai may look ageless, but are good enough at concealing their identity (look at, say, Baerlon in EotW) that actually identifying can be tricky.

Heck, speaking of Baerlon, Moiraine basically outs herself as an Aes Sedai against a group of them and only Bornhald actually wants to follow them. The others, not so much - huddled away from her during the encounter, and the thought from Rand "Maybe, some of those other Whitecloaks aren't as eager to confront an Aes Sedai as Bornhald" afterwards.

If I'm honest, having some veneer of efficiency feels refreshing. Makes them a stronger antagonist for later, if we see that far.

[Coniferous]

Whitecloaks in the books are effectively bullies, but ineffective against Aes Sedai. They have an entire country, but due to politics and, of course, Aes Sedai avoiding them, there's no evidence for them actually kiling any Sisters. There's one time when they had a corpse of an Aes Sedai, which they may or may not have been responsible for. I get the impression that they just terrorize the towns, mainly killing wisdoms or similar, probably waylaying women en route to the Tower, burning farms, and similar. Aes Sedai may look ageless, but are good enough at concealing their identity (look at, say, Baerlon in EotW) that actually identifying can be tricky.

Heck, speaking of Baerlon, Moiraine basically outs herself as an Aes Sedai against a group of them and only Bornhald actually wants to follow them. The others, not so much - huddled away from her during the encounter, and the thought from Rand "Maybe, some of those other Whitecloaks aren't as eager to confront an Aes Sedai as Bornhald" afterwards.

If I'm honest, having some veneer of efficiency feels refreshing. Makes them a stronger antagonist for later, if we see that far.

I think the whitecloaks are Jordan's representation of medieval religious warriors, who mostly just mess things up and exploit chaos, just like the High Sparrow.

[rhorle]

Whitecloaks in the books are effectively bullies, but ineffective against Aes Sedai.

...and beyond the Shining Walls a sight of the Flame would send too many people running, to hide or perhaps to fetch the Children of the Light. A Whitecloak's arrow was as fatal to an Aes Sedai as to anyone else, and the Children were to wily to let an Aes Sedai see the bowman before the arrow struck, while she still might do something about it." -The Great Hunt, chapter 4 page 45, https://books.google.com/books?id=tu...page&q&f=false

The Children are stated by the books to be a real, if minor, threat to a sister.

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I think the whitecloaks are Jordan's representation of medieval religious warriors, who mostly just mess things up and exploit chaos, just like the High Sparrow.

More like Religious haters then warriors.

Robert Jordan
The Children of the Light are all of those people who say I know the truth, my truth is the only truth, you must believe my truth. You must believe my truth, if you refuse to believe my truth I will kill you. I wanted them in there because there are always people like that in any world, and they have a tendency to organize and start killing people that don't believe what they believe, so it is really their similitude. I don't think there can be a world without the haters. Haters exist. Question 2 at https://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=204

Robert Jordan
For Children of the Light, the Whitecloaks were inspired by the Inquisition, the SS, the Teutonic Knights and others. In fact, they were inspired by all those groups who say, "We know the truth. It is the only truth. You will believe it, or we will kill you." Question 12 at https://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=211

[Lorgar Aurelian]

That’s really specific to the channelers, as channelers are the most powerful people and they can’t be male. In the books that’s the only place where there’s not balance, and there’s a reason for it (no male channelers).

The show is just “men suck” and so it’s only women in charge.

Channelers are like 90% of the screen time when it comes to power structures and the other 10% do next to nothing for most of the series.

[Coniferous]

Channelers are like 90% of the screen time when it comes to power structures and the other 10% do next to nothing for most of the series.

That's not close to accurate. Most of the power structures are non-Aes Sedai, and most have a distinct male and female component - commonly the generals are male and the monarchs are female. There's not a "heavier focus on the female roles", regardless (your original claim, now you're drifting towards "power structures") - to use POVs as a proxy, Rand and Perrin were the top POV characters in the series and Matt was 4th, and male characters make up more than half the POV time in the series. Jordan really did seem to try to strike a balance, though.