[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Lorgar Aurelian]

That's not close to accurate. Most of the power structures are non-Aes Sedai, and most have a distinct male and female component - commonly the generals are male and the monarchs are female. There's not a "heavier focus on the female roles", regardless (your original claim, now you're drifting towards "power structures") - to use POVs as a proxy, Rand and Perrin were the top POV characters in the series and Matt was 4th, and male characters make up more than half the POV time in the series. Jordan really did seem to try to strike a balance, though.

I didn’t say most power structures were Aes Sedai I said most of the screen time goes to the women parts of power structures and that the Sedai don’t have a counter part until way late, for example Aiel Chief gets way less screen time then the Wise Ones so while They might technically be ranked similarly we see way more of the woman side of things.

And yes I already said men get more oft he big characters that of course includes the lead POV characters.

[Coniferous]

I didn’t say most power structures were Aes Sedai I said most of the screen time goes to the women parts of power structures and that the Sedai don’t have a counter part until way late, for example Aiel Chief gets way less screen time then the Wise Ones so while They might technically be ranked similarly we see way more of the woman side of things.

And yes I already said men get more oft he big characters that of course includes the lead POV characters.

So overall, it's balanced?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

So overall, it's balanced?

maybe if your looking at the series as a whole but for about the first half of the books it's heavily woman favored which is why if you cant make it through the first few minutes of the show wouldn't make it though the series which was the original point.

its not till Rand comes into him self as the dragon proper, Perrin meets his wife and starts taking a leading roll and Matt gets hung and comes back that things really become balanced.

[Surfd]

I mean, you guys watched the whole thing, right? It would take too long to list the good things, such as costuming/writing/acting/tone and so on. Pretty perfect book adaptation.

I can only assume based on this comment that you have never even been in the same room with one of the books, let alone read one of them.

The writing is shit, the tone is shit, the acting is shit, the costuming is mediocre (especially considering the literal excruciating detail Jordan put into describing almost everything when writing the series). They straight up butchered almost every single character in the TV series with hamfisted changes. At this point, it's practically insulting to compare the TV production to the books, and they have changed so much that calling it an "adaptation" is stretching the word to the point of mockery.

- - - Updated - - -

https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Serenia_Latar

They murdered a Amyrlin seat and then hung her corpse.

And yet:

She died in Altara after negotiating the end of a civil war there. Somehow her corpse was seized by Whitecloaks that hanged it as final affront.

From the same link. The article is ambiguous enough that there is no clear evidence that it was the Whitecloaks who Killed her, only that they Hung her Corpse to make a statement.

Also, nobody has ever disputed that the more rabid Whitecloaks wouldn't kill a sister if given the chance. It's the problem that such a thing is FAR easier said than done. It's also the thing that given the political power and influence of the White Tower, murdering a Sister in a manner that could even vaguely be tracked back to you would be a pretty damn stupid thing for even the most powerful whitecloak to do, as the consequences would be enormous.

[jdbond]

maybe if your looking at the series as a whole but for about the first half of the books it's heavily woman favored which is why if you cant make it through the first few minutes of the show wouldn't make it though the series which was the original point.

its not till Rand comes into him self as the dragon proper, Perrin meets his wife and starts taking a leading roll and Matt gets hung and comes back that things really become balanced.

Firstb book is Rand mostly narrating the story. How can it "favor" women? You see women through perspective of Rand. Sometimes Perrin.

- - - Updated - - -

Channelers are like 90% of the screen time when it comes to power structures and the other 10% do next to nothing for most of the series.

So entire Mat and Perrin arc is less than 10% that does nothing? Hmmm...

[Coniferous]

maybe if your looking at the series as a whole but for about the first half of the books it's heavily woman favored which is why if you cant make it through the first few minutes of the show wouldn't make it though the series which was the original point.

its not till Rand comes into him self as the dragon proper, Perrin meets his wife and starts taking a leading roll and Matt gets hung and comes back that things really become balanced.

But to get back to the point, are you arguing that the book and show treat genders similarly? Because my argument is that the books tend to be fairly balanced (although somewhat favoring men) and the show is 99% "women good men bad".

[Shadowferal]

Almost 40 mins. She pretty much deconstructs and destroys the season.

[jdbond]

In the show White Cloaks successfully kill Aes Sedai. Valda is shown here with at least half a dozen of their rings.

Can someone explain how they were keeping a sister "alive" and hanging? I think I saw a cut finger or hand? But that would stop you from channeling? What kind of Aes Sedai was she?

Even in wildest dreams, no WC would "burn" a sister alive unless she was captured after a massive battle with no ability to channel. In show, she is hanging there. Scary stuff. New turning of wheel and stuff. Who knew witches in WoT were same as witches in wild west being "burned" alive by chri...aheam WCs. This is deep thinking by Rafe, right? Witches must burn! No need to wonder what's stopping them from accessing one power!

[Shadowferal]

This is deep thinking by Rafe, right?

That's it in a sentence.

[Rennadrel]

But to get back to the point, are you arguing that the book and show treat genders similarly? Because my argument is that the books tend to be fairly balanced (although somewhat favoring men) and the show is 99% "women good men bad".

That's pretty much how most shows done by woke people are. Which is pretty fucking annoying in itself because you can have great diverse characters without having to hamfist social justice and men bad bullshit into a story, especially a story that already exists in a different medium.

[Mazza]

Almost 40 mins. She pretty much deconstructs and destroys the season.

I agree 100% with her. This is not an adaptation, it just borrows names to make a mediocre fantasy show.

[rhorle]

Also, nobody has ever disputed that the more rabid Whitecloaks wouldn't kill a sister if given the chance. It's the problem that such a thing is FAR easier said than done. It's also the thing that given the political power and influence of the White Tower, murdering a Sister in a manner that could even vaguely be tracked back to you would be a pretty damn stupid thing for even the most powerful whitecloak to do, as the consequences would be enormous.

...and beyond the Shining Walls a sight of the Flame would send too many people running, to hide or perhaps to fetch the Children of the Light. A Whitecloak's arrow was as fatal to an Aes Sedai as to anyone else, and the Children were to wily to let an Aes Sedai see the bowman before the arrow struck, while she still might do something about it." -The Great Hunt, chapter 4 page 45, https://books.google.com/books?id=tu...page&q&f=false

The Whitecloaks are a bigger threat to sisters then you are giving them credit for. They don't care if it can be tracked back to them. They are zealots that believe the sisters are dark friends.

- - - Updated - - -

Can someone explain how they were keeping a sister "alive" and hanging? I think I saw a cut finger or hand? But that would stop you from channeling? What kind of Aes Sedai was she?

The books do essentially have a "first learned weave restriction" that requires some sisters to use the same hand gestures they learned the weave with even if they are not required to be used. We also see it where the Wise Ones don't actually throw fireballs. So the show doesn't stray that far from the books in that regard

[jdbond]

That's it in a sentence.

He went through a check list.
1) WOMAN yes
2) Evil Chris...yes
3) Rich oppressing the poor....I mean Nynaeve claiming that WT turned last wisdom away because she was poor is just the kind of "oppression" liberals stand against! These "rich" housewives of beverly hills!

And then writers suffered a stroke and we see daughter of a fisherman leading the said grp. Imagine the trials she must have suffered to gain admittance in such a snotty grp!

Thank god no one invited this guy to direct GoT or we would have seen Eddard Stark being played by a Chinese woman since it is JUST AN ADAPTION

[Xath]

He went through a check list.
1) WOMAN yes
2) Evil Chris...yes
3) Rich oppressing the poor....I mean Nynaeve claiming that WT turned last wisdom away because she was poor is just the kind of "oppression" liberals stand against! These "rich" housewives of beverly hills!

And then writers suffered a stroke and we see daughter of a fisherman leading the said grp. Imagine the trials she must have suffered to gain admittance in such a snotty grp!

Thank god no one invited this guy to direct GoT or we would have seen Eddard Stark being played by a Chinese woman since it is JUST AN ADAPTION

Nah they would have killed Ned in the first episode so they wouldn't bother with the race bending.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Firstb book is Rand mostly narrating the story. How can it "favor" women? You see women through perspective of Rand. Sometimes Perrin.

the first few books up till moiraine‘s suppose death is rand and co being lead around by woman with them being made out to be “wool heads” who can’t do much on there own. It’s not until moraine is gone for a bit that they really come into there own and start taking charge.

So entire Mat and Perrin arc is less than 10% that does nothing? Hmmm...

talking about the power structures in the world not the characters arcs. Mat is pretty much not a part of any until the last book or so if you count him helping the Seanchan and Perrin is similar with him only taking charge of the two rivers and what not.

Other wise through almost every power structure that isn’t chandler ran does nothing for most of the series.

- - - Updated - - -

But to get back to the point, are you arguing that the book and show treat genders similarly? Because my argument is that the books tend to be fairly balanced (although somewhat favoring men) and the show is 99% "women good men bad".

I wouldn’t say the books and show treat them similarly but I also wouldn’t narrow the show down to 99% woman good men bad.

The show is far more heavy handed then the books but I’d say most of the show is still pulling from ideas from the books but instead of us getting to see more flash backs and such to flesh it out like we do in the book the show is just showing us what the actual characters think in the moment.

Ideally if they show gets enough seasons this will stop being a problem and they will take more time to flesh these things out like actually showing why the dragon did what he did or showing the black tower and the reds response to bonding or things like how Moraine says the lead red secretly visits a man ect.

[Coniferous]

the first few books up till moiraine‘s suppose death is rand and co being lead around by woman with them being made out to be “wool heads” who can’t do much on there own. It’s not until moraine is gone for a bit that they really come into there own and start taking charge.

talking about the power structures in the world not the characters arcs. Mat is pretty much not a part of any until the last book or so if you count him helping the Seanchan and Perrin is similar with him only taking charge of the two rivers and what not.

Other wise through almost every power structure that isn’t chandler ran does nothing for most of the series.

- - - Updated - - -



I wouldn’t say the books and show treat them similarly but I also wouldn’t narrow the show down to 99% woman good men bad.

The show is far more heavy handed then the books but I’d say most of the show is still pulling from ideas from the books but instead of us getting to see more flash backs and such to flesh it out like we do in the book the show is just showing us what the actual characters think in the moment.

Ideally if they show gets enough seasons this will stop being a problem and they will take more time to flesh these things out like actually showing why the dragon did what he did or showing the black tower and the reds response to bonding or things like how Moraine says the lead red secretly visits a man ect.

That’s one of those things that’s going to be hard to do given how far they’ve strayed from the books. Since they’ve turned it into a conflict of genders, I can’t imagine that a show in 2023 or 2024 is going to ever be comfortable with a message of “actually, it’s the women who were wrong”. That’s as anti-woke as it gets! I think they’re going to stick with “men bad, women good” and continue to mangle the plot around that central premise.

An earlier poster mentions the scene where Rand makes the reds kneel and swear fealty to him - any chance something like that ever happens in the show? And yet it’s a central plot point in the books. In the books it’s not an issue because he didn’t emphasize gender conflict but in the show they’ve just planted a lot of bad seeds already.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

That’s one of those things that’s going to be hard to do given how far they’ve strayed from the books. Since they’ve turned it into a conflict of genders, I can’t imagine that a show in 2023 or 2024 is going to ever be comfortable with a message of “actually, it’s the women who were wrong”. That’s as anti-woke as it gets! I think they’re going to stick with “men bad, women good” and continue to mangle the plot around that central premise.

An earlier poster mentions the scene where Rand makes the reds kneel and swear fealty to him - any chance something like that ever happens in the show? And yet it’s a central plot point in the books. In the books it’s not an issue because he didn’t emphasize gender conflict but in the show they’ve just planted a lot of bad seeds already.

Not sure how any one can say any thing related to the reds in the book and say they didn’t emphasize gender conflict, almost every thing about the reds is about gender conflict.

As to them saying the woman were wrong in the show they have already started down that path work Moraine and the reds I don’t see them dropping the continuation of that ad they go forward.

[Coniferous]

Not sure how any one can say any thing related to the reds in the book and say they didn’t emphasize gender conflict, almost every thing about the reds is about gender conflict.

As to them saying the woman were wrong in the show they have already started down that path work Moraine and the reds I don’t see them dropping the continuation of that ad they go forward.

Come on man, be real here. The reds are a small faction and they have a lot of conflict with the rest of the women as well. There is gender conflict in the books, but it's not the central theme. Meanwhile the central plot of the TV show is gender conflict, made obvious literally from the first paragraph spoken by a character. It's the major difference between the books and the show.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Come on man, be real here. The reds are a small faction and they have a lot of conflict with the rest of the women as well. There is gender conflict in the books, but it's not the central theme. Meanwhile the central plot of the TV show is gender conflict, made obvious literally from the first paragraph spoken by a character. It's the major difference between the books and the show.

The red's are the largest Ajah aren't even in conflict with most woman just the blue's and green's don't like them.

and we must have watched different shows if you think the central plot of the show was gender conflict because the only characters who actually act like that at all are the red's and even the lead red secretly visits a man. The opening paragraph isn't even anti men it just says they were arrogant which is the Sedai's view on the legends and we get the same thing in the book's just with extra info like us being able to actually see the dragon before we are neck deep in Sedai.

[Surfd]

You should read my later posts. Including my most recent about thinking opinions are facts.

Such angry little people you all are.

I would point out the irony here, but I am pretty sure it would go over your head.

I never claimed my "opinion" was a "fact". It's very much my Opinion. Doesn't change the "fact" that anyone who can honestly say with a straight face that it is their opinion that the show is a "pretty perfect book adaptation" has some fairly fucking suspect opinions:
- They butchered practically every character in the show. 90% of which were completely unnecessary changes.
- They butchered the carefully crafted world Jordan had made by fucking the hell out of a lot of the backstory and lore.
- They made absolutely needless changes to plot and event sequences.
- The only person in it who seems to be able to actually act is Rosamund Pike.
- There is a laundry list of smaller shit that could be addressed as well.

How you can look at all of that and some how come to the conclusion that it is "pretty perfect" when compared to the source material basically beggars belief.

So yes, I think most of us have a bit of a right to be "angry" when a hack showrunner takes one of our most beloved Fantasy franchises and straight up butchers it.

And please, don't pretend he didn't. The guy fucking ran a big AMA on reddit before the show came out where he literally put in a load of effort answering questions to make it look like he knew the series inside out and backwards and had a team of lore experts on standby to give the impression to the fans that it would be the most book accurate thing ever, and then once the series actually aired, he does a complete 180 spin where he basically brags about how much stuff he has changed and how he enjoys tormenting his lore people. What he did was the literal equivalent of slapping the fans directly in the face.

- - - Updated - - -

The Whitecloaks are a bigger threat to sisters then you are giving them credit for. They don't care if it can be tracked back to them. They are zealots that believe the sisters are dark friends.

They are not as much of a threat as you are making them out to be though.

Yes, they are zealots, but they are mostly toothless. It's only really the most rabid of them that would actually have the guts to go after the sisters directly.

Sure, the can often prey on the superstitions of the ignorant in backwater towns and villages in some places, but don't pretend that "everywhere" outside the walls of Tar'valon is that ready to run to the nearest whitecloak at the sight of an Aes Sedai (if they would even recognize one when they saw one). I would be willing to bet that far more places, even the rural ones, hold the Sisters in superstitious Awe rather than superstitious fear. Most rural folk in Caemlyn for example would probably be more likely to call the guard when they spotted whitecloaks than they would call whitecloaks if they suspected someone was Aes Sedai.

And even if they did run and get the nearest whitecloak, what are they going to do? The only way they actually represent a "threat" to a real Sister is if they then set up an ambush somewhere and jump them when they aren't expecting it. Direct confrontation simply isn't going to work, as most sisters who are actually let out of the tower on "business" are going to be more than capable of fending for themselves, even without needing to resort to power focused violence (such as when Moraine uses the power to effectively intimidate a group of WCs via illusion) or having their Warder chop the cloaks up into bite sized pieces.

99% chance that the vast majority of the time some whitecloak brags about killing a sister, they are probably taking about some poor wisdom or medicine-peddler instead.