1. #2541
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    maybe if your looking at the series as a whole but for about the first half of the books it's heavily woman favored which is why if you cant make it through the first few minutes of the show wouldn't make it though the series which was the original point.

    its not till Rand comes into him self as the dragon proper, Perrin meets his wife and starts taking a leading roll and Matt gets hung and comes back that things really become balanced.
    But to get back to the point, are you arguing that the book and show treat genders similarly? Because my argument is that the books tend to be fairly balanced (although somewhat favoring men) and the show is 99% "women good men bad".

  2. #2542


    Almost 40 mins. She pretty much deconstructs and destroys the season.

  3. #2543
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    In the show White Cloaks successfully kill Aes Sedai. Valda is shown here with at least half a dozen of their rings.

    Can someone explain how they were keeping a sister "alive" and hanging? I think I saw a cut finger or hand? But that would stop you from channeling? What kind of Aes Sedai was she?

    Even in wildest dreams, no WC would "burn" a sister alive unless she was captured after a massive battle with no ability to channel. In show, she is hanging there. Scary stuff. New turning of wheel and stuff. Who knew witches in WoT were same as witches in wild west being "burned" alive by chri...aheam WCs. This is deep thinking by Rafe, right? Witches must burn! No need to wonder what's stopping them from accessing one power!

  4. #2544
    Quote Originally Posted by jdbond View Post
    This is deep thinking by Rafe, right?
    That's it in a sentence.

  5. #2545
    Titan
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    America's Hat
    Posts
    14,154
    Quote Originally Posted by Coniferous View Post
    But to get back to the point, are you arguing that the book and show treat genders similarly? Because my argument is that the books tend to be fairly balanced (although somewhat favoring men) and the show is 99% "women good men bad".
    That's pretty much how most shows done by woke people are. Which is pretty fucking annoying in itself because you can have great diverse characters without having to hamfist social justice and men bad bullshit into a story, especially a story that already exists in a different medium.

  6. #2546
    Stood in the Fire Mazza's Avatar
    5+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    the land of beer, chocolate and waffles
    Posts
    456
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post


    Almost 40 mins. She pretty much deconstructs and destroys the season.
    I agree 100% with her. This is not an adaptation, it just borrows names to make a mediocre fantasy show.

  7. #2547
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    19,770
    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    Also, nobody has ever disputed that the more rabid Whitecloaks wouldn't kill a sister if given the chance. It's the problem that such a thing is FAR easier said than done. It's also the thing that given the political power and influence of the White Tower, murdering a Sister in a manner that could even vaguely be tracked back to you would be a pretty damn stupid thing for even the most powerful whitecloak to do, as the consequences would be enormous.
    ...and beyond the Shining Walls a sight of the Flame would send too many people running, to hide or perhaps to fetch the Children of the Light. A Whitecloak's arrow was as fatal to an Aes Sedai as to anyone else, and the Children were to wily to let an Aes Sedai see the bowman before the arrow struck, while she still might do something about it." -The Great Hunt, chapter 4 page 45, https://books.google.com/books?id=tu...page&q&f=false
    The Whitecloaks are a bigger threat to sisters then you are giving them credit for. They don't care if it can be tracked back to them. They are zealots that believe the sisters are dark friends.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by jdbond View Post
    Can someone explain how they were keeping a sister "alive" and hanging? I think I saw a cut finger or hand? But that would stop you from channeling? What kind of Aes Sedai was she?
    The books do essentially have a "first learned weave restriction" that requires some sisters to use the same hand gestures they learned the weave with even if they are not required to be used. We also see it where the Wise Ones don't actually throw fireballs. So the show doesn't stray that far from the books in that regard
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  8. #2548
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    That's it in a sentence.
    He went through a check list.
    1) WOMAN yes
    2) Evil Chris...yes
    3) Rich oppressing the poor....I mean Nynaeve claiming that WT turned last wisdom away because she was poor is just the kind of "oppression" liberals stand against! These "rich" housewives of beverly hills!

    And then writers suffered a stroke and we see daughter of a fisherman leading the said grp. Imagine the trials she must have suffered to gain admittance in such a snotty grp!

    Thank god no one invited this guy to direct GoT or we would have seen Eddard Stark being played by a Chinese woman since it is JUST AN ADAPTION

  9. #2549
    Quote Originally Posted by jdbond View Post
    He went through a check list.
    1) WOMAN yes
    2) Evil Chris...yes
    3) Rich oppressing the poor....I mean Nynaeve claiming that WT turned last wisdom away because she was poor is just the kind of "oppression" liberals stand against! These "rich" housewives of beverly hills!

    And then writers suffered a stroke and we see daughter of a fisherman leading the said grp. Imagine the trials she must have suffered to gain admittance in such a snotty grp!

    Thank god no one invited this guy to direct GoT or we would have seen Eddard Stark being played by a Chinese woman since it is JUST AN ADAPTION
    Nah they would have killed Ned in the first episode so they wouldn't bother with the race bending.

  10. #2550
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Land of moose and goose.
    Posts
    25,001
    Quote Originally Posted by jdbond View Post
    Firstb book is Rand mostly narrating the story. How can it "favor" women? You see women through perspective of Rand. Sometimes Perrin.
    the first few books up till moiraine‘s suppose death is rand and co being lead around by woman with them being made out to be “wool heads” who can’t do much on there own. It’s not until moraine is gone for a bit that they really come into there own and start taking charge.

    So entire Mat and Perrin arc is less than 10% that does nothing? Hmmm...
    talking about the power structures in the world not the characters arcs. Mat is pretty much not a part of any until the last book or so if you count him helping the Seanchan and Perrin is similar with him only taking charge of the two rivers and what not.

    Other wise through almost every power structure that isn’t chandler ran does nothing for most of the series.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Coniferous View Post
    But to get back to the point, are you arguing that the book and show treat genders similarly? Because my argument is that the books tend to be fairly balanced (although somewhat favoring men) and the show is 99% "women good men bad".
    I wouldn’t say the books and show treat them similarly but I also wouldn’t narrow the show down to 99% woman good men bad.

    The show is far more heavy handed then the books but I’d say most of the show is still pulling from ideas from the books but instead of us getting to see more flash backs and such to flesh it out like we do in the book the show is just showing us what the actual characters think in the moment.

    Ideally if they show gets enough seasons this will stop being a problem and they will take more time to flesh these things out like actually showing why the dragon did what he did or showing the black tower and the reds response to bonding or things like how Moraine says the lead red secretly visits a man ect.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  11. #2551
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    the first few books up till moiraine‘s suppose death is rand and co being lead around by woman with them being made out to be “wool heads” who can’t do much on there own. It’s not until moraine is gone for a bit that they really come into there own and start taking charge.

    talking about the power structures in the world not the characters arcs. Mat is pretty much not a part of any until the last book or so if you count him helping the Seanchan and Perrin is similar with him only taking charge of the two rivers and what not.

    Other wise through almost every power structure that isn’t chandler ran does nothing for most of the series.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I wouldn’t say the books and show treat them similarly but I also wouldn’t narrow the show down to 99% woman good men bad.

    The show is far more heavy handed then the books but I’d say most of the show is still pulling from ideas from the books but instead of us getting to see more flash backs and such to flesh it out like we do in the book the show is just showing us what the actual characters think in the moment.

    Ideally if they show gets enough seasons this will stop being a problem and they will take more time to flesh these things out like actually showing why the dragon did what he did or showing the black tower and the reds response to bonding or things like how Moraine says the lead red secretly visits a man ect.
    That’s one of those things that’s going to be hard to do given how far they’ve strayed from the books. Since they’ve turned it into a conflict of genders, I can’t imagine that a show in 2023 or 2024 is going to ever be comfortable with a message of “actually, it’s the women who were wrong”. That’s as anti-woke as it gets! I think they’re going to stick with “men bad, women good” and continue to mangle the plot around that central premise.

    An earlier poster mentions the scene where Rand makes the reds kneel and swear fealty to him - any chance something like that ever happens in the show? And yet it’s a central plot point in the books. In the books it’s not an issue because he didn’t emphasize gender conflict but in the show they’ve just planted a lot of bad seeds already.

  12. #2552
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Land of moose and goose.
    Posts
    25,001
    Quote Originally Posted by Coniferous View Post
    That’s one of those things that’s going to be hard to do given how far they’ve strayed from the books. Since they’ve turned it into a conflict of genders, I can’t imagine that a show in 2023 or 2024 is going to ever be comfortable with a message of “actually, it’s the women who were wrong”. That’s as anti-woke as it gets! I think they’re going to stick with “men bad, women good” and continue to mangle the plot around that central premise.

    An earlier poster mentions the scene where Rand makes the reds kneel and swear fealty to him - any chance something like that ever happens in the show? And yet it’s a central plot point in the books. In the books it’s not an issue because he didn’t emphasize gender conflict but in the show they’ve just planted a lot of bad seeds already.
    Not sure how any one can say any thing related to the reds in the book and say they didn’t emphasize gender conflict, almost every thing about the reds is about gender conflict.

    As to them saying the woman were wrong in the show they have already started down that path work Moraine and the reds I don’t see them dropping the continuation of that ad they go forward.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  13. #2553
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Not sure how any one can say any thing related to the reds in the book and say they didn’t emphasize gender conflict, almost every thing about the reds is about gender conflict.

    As to them saying the woman were wrong in the show they have already started down that path work Moraine and the reds I don’t see them dropping the continuation of that ad they go forward.
    Come on man, be real here. The reds are a small faction and they have a lot of conflict with the rest of the women as well. There is gender conflict in the books, but it's not the central theme. Meanwhile the central plot of the TV show is gender conflict, made obvious literally from the first paragraph spoken by a character. It's the major difference between the books and the show.
    Last edited by Coniferous; 2022-01-02 at 08:51 PM.

  14. #2554
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Land of moose and goose.
    Posts
    25,001
    Quote Originally Posted by Coniferous View Post
    Come on man, be real here. The reds are a small faction and they have a lot of conflict with the rest of the women as well. There is gender conflict in the books, but it's not the central theme. Meanwhile the central plot of the TV show is gender conflict, made obvious literally from the first paragraph spoken by a character. It's the major difference between the books and the show.
    The red's are the largest Ajah aren't even in conflict with most woman just the blue's and green's don't like them.

    and we must have watched different shows if you think the central plot of the show was gender conflict because the only characters who actually act like that at all are the red's and even the lead red secretly visits a man. The opening paragraph isn't even anti men it just says they were arrogant which is the Sedai's view on the legends and we get the same thing in the book's just with extra info like us being able to actually see the dragon before we are neck deep in Sedai.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  15. #2555
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    You should read my later posts. Including my most recent about thinking opinions are facts.

    Such angry little people you all are.
    I would point out the irony here, but I am pretty sure it would go over your head.

    I never claimed my "opinion" was a "fact". It's very much my Opinion. Doesn't change the "fact" that anyone who can honestly say with a straight face that it is their opinion that the show is a "pretty perfect book adaptation" has some fairly fucking suspect opinions:
    - They butchered practically every character in the show. 90% of which were completely unnecessary changes.
    - They butchered the carefully crafted world Jordan had made by fucking the hell out of a lot of the backstory and lore.
    - They made absolutely needless changes to plot and event sequences.
    - The only person in it who seems to be able to actually act is Rosamund Pike.
    - There is a laundry list of smaller shit that could be addressed as well.

    How you can look at all of that and some how come to the conclusion that it is "pretty perfect" when compared to the source material basically beggars belief.

    So yes, I think most of us have a bit of a right to be "angry" when a hack showrunner takes one of our most beloved Fantasy franchises and straight up butchers it.

    And please, don't pretend he didn't. The guy fucking ran a big AMA on reddit before the show came out where he literally put in a load of effort answering questions to make it look like he knew the series inside out and backwards and had a team of lore experts on standby to give the impression to the fans that it would be the most book accurate thing ever, and then once the series actually aired, he does a complete 180 spin where he basically brags about how much stuff he has changed and how he enjoys tormenting his lore people. What he did was the literal equivalent of slapping the fans directly in the face.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The Whitecloaks are a bigger threat to sisters then you are giving them credit for. They don't care if it can be tracked back to them. They are zealots that believe the sisters are dark friends.
    They are not as much of a threat as you are making them out to be though.

    Yes, they are zealots, but they are mostly toothless. It's only really the most rabid of them that would actually have the guts to go after the sisters directly.

    Sure, the can often prey on the superstitions of the ignorant in backwater towns and villages in some places, but don't pretend that "everywhere" outside the walls of Tar'valon is that ready to run to the nearest whitecloak at the sight of an Aes Sedai (if they would even recognize one when they saw one). I would be willing to bet that far more places, even the rural ones, hold the Sisters in superstitious Awe rather than superstitious fear. Most rural folk in Caemlyn for example would probably be more likely to call the guard when they spotted whitecloaks than they would call whitecloaks if they suspected someone was Aes Sedai.

    And even if they did run and get the nearest whitecloak, what are they going to do? The only way they actually represent a "threat" to a real Sister is if they then set up an ambush somewhere and jump them when they aren't expecting it. Direct confrontation simply isn't going to work, as most sisters who are actually let out of the tower on "business" are going to be more than capable of fending for themselves, even without needing to resort to power focused violence (such as when Moraine uses the power to effectively intimidate a group of WCs via illusion) or having their Warder chop the cloaks up into bite sized pieces.

    99% chance that the vast majority of the time some whitecloak brags about killing a sister, they are probably taking about some poor wisdom or medicine-peddler instead.
    Last edited by Surfd; 2022-01-02 at 10:17 PM.

  16. #2556
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    Yet it never fucking happened in the books
    The books are irrelevant to a tv series, they can do whatever they want with the story, suck it up and just accept it and just because something isnt stated in the main story of a book it doesnt mean it didnt or couldnt happen.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  17. #2557
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    The red's are the largest Ajah aren't even in conflict with most woman just the blue's and green's don't like them.

    and we must have watched different shows if you think the central plot of the show was gender conflict because the only characters who actually act like that at all are the red's and even the lead red secretly visits a man. The opening paragraph isn't even anti men it just says they were arrogant which is the Sedai's view on the legends and we get the same thing in the book's just with extra info like us being able to actually see the dragon before we are neck deep in Sedai.
    I guess conflict is the wrong word, it’s more the central theme is “men bad, women good.” Take the trolloc attack - you have the woman telling the man (utterly nonsensically, in my opinion) not to go out to defend the fortified gap, plus some nonsense about the armor. The man doesn’t listen to the woman and dies, then the woman saves the day.

    Obviously this whole scene was utter nonsense, from the idea that 5 channelers could one shot an entire army, to them men going to defend the gap for no reason when women can just one shot the enemy anyway, to the women telling the men not to go defend the gap for reasons without saying “he just let me channel them to death”. But net result is men did a senseless thing and died (unclear why it was senseless, setting up at a fortified bottleneck seems smart to me) and the women saved the day.

    Basically every single scene works like that.

  18. #2558
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    The books are irrelevant to a tv series, they can do whatever they want with the story, suck it up and just accept it and just because something isnt stated in the main story of a book it doesnt mean it didnt or couldnt happen.
    "It's an adaptation so just suck it up and accept that this gives them a license to do whatever the fuck they want with the source material" is a ridiculously fucking stupid defense of someone skullfucking the source material.

  19. #2559
    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    "It's an adaptation so just suck it up and accept that this gives them a license to do whatever the fuck they want with the source material" is a ridiculously fucking stupid defense of someone skullfucking the source material.
    Most dont care as long as we get something good to watch and thats what is delivered, the opinion you have on it just because you are a fan of the book series doesnt mean anything, the only thing that matters is enough ppl enjoy it as it is, you still have your book you can enjoy and the rest of us can enjoy the tv series.

    Most ppl dont read books so if it didnt become a tv series then even less ppl would of even heard of wheel of time. I watch a tv series for what it is, not compare it to its book series, when you do that you will always be dissapointed.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2022-01-02 at 10:31 PM.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  20. #2560
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    19,770
    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    They are not as much of a threat as you are making them out to be though.
    So if they are not that big of a threat why does one of the main characters not wear her shawl, with the flame of tar'valon on it, because of the risk it poses from potential children of the light? Or did you not read that part of my post? I'm not pretending everywhere is. The book literally tells us that they can be a threat to a sister anywhere. You can ignore the books all you want but don't pretend that you are correct when doing so.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •