1. #2641
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    I could be wrong but I think even in the books they are stronger then every other sister pre any training and the tower is more so about mastering what power a sister does has not making them stronger in the one power. so a trained sister using there power instead of them doing it them self's would be just fine.
    Not exactly; upper limits are basically defined but ability to reach them takes time to develop and increases with practice. Part of why Egwene accelerated so fast is she was forced to use the power constantly while collared. What they did in the finale would have been difficult even if she had been post collar stage.

  2. #2642
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    They are. The ability to channel the one power has been getting progressively weaker so most sisters are not very strong. The show doesn't stray that far from the books in terms of strength in the one power. Also for linking it only requires the leader of the circle/link to know the weaves. The rest are just batteries until the link is dismissed or you get burned out (killed). So the show didn't stray that far from the books.

    The books also puts the strength of Nyneave at the top of what a woman can be. Which doesn't change over the course of the books. The strength remains the same it is just the knowledge of how to use that (and remove her block that stops her from consciously drawing on the power) that changes.
    See above, this isn't true - they have a potential but they can't reach it until practicing and are initially very weak, pulling too much before then burns them out. Also Nynaeve was strong but as strong as the weaker Forsaken, not as strong as a woman can be.

  3. #2643
    Quote Originally Posted by Coniferous View Post
    See above, this isn't true - they have a potential but they can't reach it until practicing and are initially very weak, pulling too much before then burns them out. Also Nynaeve was strong but as strong as the weaker Forsaken, not as strong as a woman can be.
    Just put them on ignore they haven't read the books and just here to argue cribbing stuff from the wiki it's become very obvious.

  4. #2644
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    Just put them on ignore they haven't read the books and just here to argue cribbing stuff from the wiki it's become very obvious.
    Yeah I'm just correcting the fallacies he posts so that he hopefully doesn't confuse people more, not getting into debates.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    Not exactly; upper limits are basically defined but ability to reach them takes time to develop and increases with practice. Part of why Egwene accelerated so fast is she was forced to use the power constantly while collared. What they did in the finale would have been difficult even if she had been post collar stage.
    I think it's part of Jordan pacing the story - he doesn't want all the characters to be super powerful at the beginning. Rand gets the pool of Saidin from EOTW in the first book and that's a special chase that seems to charge him up for a couple minutes but then he gets decharged. Nynaeve is strong but has her mental block, and Egwene was very weak at this point.

    But the showrunners apparently don't care about pacing so they started at "oneshot a giant army" power level. If they're anything like the WoW writers, by season 4 they'll escalate the Dark One to be a planet sized guy stabbing the earth with a sword, lol.

  5. #2645
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coniferous View Post
    See above, this isn't true - they have a potential but they can't reach it until practicing and are initially very weak, pulling too much before then burns them out. Also Nynaeve was strong but as strong as the weaker Forsaken, not as strong as a woman can be.
    "Robert Jordan
    How learning to use the One Power works: The older you are, the faster you reach your full potential. Men reach their full strength faster than women. Forced training makes you learn faster, but it is very dangerous—it can kill you, or burn you out. The Asha'man are being trained that way, and the casualties of the training show this. (X number dead, Y number burned out...) Egwene, and Elayne and Nynaeve have also experienced forced training."
    Her strength was always there so I'm not wrong which is why you use potential versus ability. Her strength doesn't change over the course of the two years of the story but her ability to access it with out burning out does. Burn out is used as a term of "Accidental stilling" essentially which comes from doing things incorrectly with the one power or to fast for your skill level.

    As for her power level you are correct. She is 3 levels below the strongest a woman can be. But she is stronger then some of the female forsaken. Equal to Graendal but weaker then Lanfear, Semirhage, and Mesaana. Ny'naeve was the strongest known to the White Tower. Once the novice books were opened, seanchan, and forsaken came she was no longer the strongest around.

    But I'm not sure you are looking for a civil discussion on the topic given how quickly you dismiss everything I say as fallacies because I was wrong in this instance even though you've been wrong before in this thread.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-01-04 at 05:02 AM.
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  6. #2646
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Her strength was always there so I'm not wrong which is why you use potential versus ability. Her strength doesn't change over the course of the two years of the story but her ability to access it with out burning out does. Burn out is used as a term of "Accidental stilling" essentially which comes from doing things incorrectly with the one power or to fast for your skill level.

    As for her power level you are correct. She is 3 levels below the strongest a woman can be. But she is stronger then some of the female forsaken. Equal to Graendal but weaker then Lanfear, Semirhage, and Mesaana. Ny'naeve was the strongest known to the White Tower. Once the novice books were opened, seanchan, and forsaken came she was no longer the strongest around.

    But I'm not sure you are looking for a civil discussion on the topic given how quickly you dismiss everything I say as fallacies because I was wrong in this instance even though you've been wrong before in this thread.
    I was responding to the earlier post (which you agreed to) where it basically said that because they were in a link it didn't matter that they were inexperienced because the leader would draw the power. That's not true - they would still burn out because they hadn't trained up to their potential.

  7. #2647
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coniferous View Post
    They talk a lot about how the novice's potential grows with practice, how it gets easier to grab the source every time, and how Egwene's time with the Seanchan put her under pressure and caused her to reach her maximum faster than Elayne did. So their potential is stronger than any other sister (except maybe Cadsuane, there is considerable debate about her actual power level) but it requires practice to reach it - it's not just about control it takes practice to reach that level of strength. Nynaeve is a weird case though because she's always super powerful in the books because she's been using it unconsciously, she has no control over when it comes for a few books.

    It's pretty specific in a New Spring that power level does grow - it at one point says that Moiraine embraces as much as she can hold, not as much as she could hold in a year, much less five, but that holding any more at the moment would burn her out or kill her. So potential is known but you have to practice to reach it, and no, they are not stronger pre training (maybe Nynaeve is but definitely not Egwene, she's very weak).
    isn't this more so a case of mental blocks like how your brain limits muscle strength so you don’t tear off the bone instead of them actually gaining more power though? Like they can’t process that much power in there mind so they burn out and don't links ignore those blocks like how the Seanchan force there slaves to channel more and more until all the blocks are gone and torture them when they don't even if some die along the way?
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2022-01-04 at 05:49 AM.
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  8. #2648
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coniferous View Post
    I was responding to the earlier post (which you agreed to) where it basically said that because they were in a link it didn't matter that they were inexperienced because the leader would draw the power. That's not true - they would still burn out because they hadn't trained up to their potential.
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Also for linking it only requires the leader of the circle/link to know the weaves. The rest are just batteries until the link is dismissed or you get burned out (killed). So the show didn't stray that far from the books.
    You didn't read it correctly which makes your attempt to dismiss it as a fallacy even sillier. Only the leader of the circle needs to know how to make weaves because they are the only ones that can use the one power when linked. Anyone in a circle can still burn out if the leader draws to much power. I didn't comment on that so it is weird to try and claim I'm wrong and confusing people when it isn't even something I said. It is amazing how you all keep calling me wrong, a troll, or any other insult you can think of yet it is all because you can't accept someone using knowledge of the books to counter or disprove something you've posted.

    The part about potential and strength that I commented on was over all strength. It doesn't change. You don't keep growing in power until the day you die. You have a maximum strength that you always have. If you are untrained it is hard, or impossible, to use that much of the one power so you build up to controlling it. Ny'neave "not-full" is still very strong and is higher then Cadsuane at her full potential.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-01-04 at 05:28 AM.
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  9. #2649
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    isn't this more so a case of mental blocks like how your brain limits muscle strength so you don’t tear off the bone instead of them actually gaining more power though? Like they can’t process that much power in there mind so they burn out and don't links ignore those blocks like how the Seanchan force there slaves to channel more and more until all the blocks are gone and torture them when they don't even if some die along the way?
    There’s nothing I’m aware of that says the links ignore your current power and allow the linker to channel at your full potential.

    There’s a lot that says you can burn yourself out by pulling more than your current power level and less than your potential.

    You could maybe come up with headcanon that says links allow you to pull to your potential (it seems illogical though, the Suldam don’t have Egwene’s potential so it’s just kind of bypassing the rules), but the main point is still that book one Egwene and Nynaeve are extremely limited and in the show they are at the army destroying level, a huge departure from the books.

  10. #2650
    Quote Originally Posted by Coniferous View Post
    There’s nothing I’m aware of that says the links ignore your current power and allow the linker to channel at your full potential.

    There’s a lot that says you can burn yourself out by pulling more than your current power level and less than your potential.

    You could maybe come up with headcanon that says links allow you to pull to your potential (it seems illogical though, the Suldam don’t have Egwene’s potential so it’s just kind of bypassing the rules), but the main point is still that book one Egwene and Nynaeve are extremely limited and in the show they are at the army destroying level, a huge departure from the books.
    Don't forget casually either healing grievous wounds instantly/resurrection. All that takes is a good cry.
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  11. #2651
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coniferous View Post
    See above, this isn't true - they have a potential but they can't reach it until practicing and are initially very weak, pulling too much before then burns them out. Also Nynaeve was strong but as strong as the weaker Forsaken, not as strong as a woman can be.
    Unaided she wasn't even as strong as Moghedien and had to outwit her in order to beat her to the point where she could capture her. Lanfear is also much stronger than any of the women alive. It's absolute bullshit how they've treated the characters ability to channel in the show. Rand basically does all the work unconsciously and wipes out the Trolloc army because he doesn't understand how to use the Power. That whole ending was so disingenuous and completely tries to invalidate just how strong of a character he is.

  12. #2652
    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    Don't forget casually either healing grievous wounds instantly/resurrection. All that takes is a good cry.
    Yeah - it’s kinda like if GoT ended the first season with Daenerys destroying a city flying around on Drogon. No sense of pacing.

  13. #2653
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    isn't this more so a case of mental blocks like how your brain limits muscle strength so you don’t tear off the bone instead of them actually gaining more power though? Like they can’t process that much power in there mind so they burn out and don't links ignore those blocks like how the Seanchan force there slaves to channel more and more until all the blocks are gone and torture them when they don't even if some die along the way?
    Linking it to working out is a good way to think of it. Genetically we have limits that most of us never actually reach only people whose job it is to reach them like pro athletes tend to reach them. However even people like Lebron don't just start at their max they have to build up muscles through repetition and working out in general. So think of Nynaeve and Egwene currently as eight and six year old Lebrons respectively. There is huge potential but the work hasn't been done to allow it to come out yet.

  14. #2654
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    I'm not using one metric I'm using 400 user ratings

    Prefer RT?

    https://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/the_wheel_of_time/s01

    User scores are 66% even with the constant purging that RT does of "review bombing" haven't watched book so no idea if it was good or not.
    Audience scores are irrelevant because only ppl complaining actually leave a review, you go by actual critic percentage of 82% of RT, a few hundred or thousands user reviews is not an accurate measurement of anything. We have 79k from imbd at 7.3 rating so that number at least covers a reasonable amount of the viewers compared to other sites.

    If you think 70-80% of the total viewers liking something is bad then you are completely clueless. Just admit it you are wrong that the series is bad because all the data proves you wrong.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Coniferous View Post
    I am a far more hardcore LOTR fan than WoT (WoT is kinda trashy in spots, LOTR is a masterpiece) - but I loved the LOTR movies. I loved the Game of Thrones series until it went off the rails. I loved Harry Potter movies.

    This notion that “you can’t please hardcore fans” is nonsense, and it’s never anything I’ve heard before. You can. This adaptation is just really shitty.

    It boggles my mind that a Hollywood writer thinks he can improve upon one of the greatest fantasy series of all time by massively changing major plot points. The arrogance of it is stunning - and he’s also obviously been wrong.
    Its not shitty thats a fact, when 70-80% actually like it then its not bad, its actually good, it is impossible to please everyone, there will be ppl who hate LOTR movies and love the books and the same with everything else that is just a fact, nothing gets a perfect score no matter how good ppl think it is.

    Current wheel of time series is good, not the best thing ever but something enjoyable to watch.
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  15. #2655
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    Unaided she wasn't even as strong as Moghedien and had to outwit her in order to beat her to the point where she could capture her.
    Official Source material says otherwise. The Wheel of Time companion lists her power at equal to Moghedien initially and higher than Moghedien once at her full potential. She had to outwit her because they were an equal match. https://www.tor.com/2015/10/27/the-w...or-channelers/
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  16. #2656

  17. #2657
    Finished the first season and I enjoyed it. Wasn't amazing, but it has my interest, which did take a few epsiodes to grab.

    Something just looks off about the show though, it looks very cheap at times, the costumes look bad and CGI can be meh and overused. I found it annoying how overly clean everyone was.

    I'll probably need to read some reviews to fully understand what is going on.

  18. #2658
    Quote Originally Posted by Tekko View Post
    Finished the first season and I enjoyed it. Wasn't amazing, but it has my interest, which did take a few epsiodes to grab.

    Something just looks off about the show though, it looks very cheap at times, the costumes look bad and CGI can be meh and overused. I found it annoying how overly clean everyone was.

    I'll probably need to read some reviews to fully understand what is going on.
    Or you could just read the books

  19. #2659
    this show is fine, dont get all the whining. the books were so boring i barely remember them.

  20. #2660
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Its not shitty thats a fact, when 70-80% actually like it then its not bad, its actually good, it is impossible to please everyone, there will be ppl who hate LOTR movies and love the books and the same with everything else that is just a fact, nothing gets a perfect score no matter how good ppl think it is.

    Current wheel of time series is good, not the best thing ever but something enjoyable to watch.
    I can believe that if you just watched it without knowing the book series it seems good, but it is vastly inferior to the book series and that's a problem for those who know that. It could have been much much better.

    And again, I'm not saying the book series is a masterpiece - it's very good but often flawed (very slow in the middle of the series). The thing is that television narratives are generally so inferior to book narratives in general that very good books like this make for excellent television if you have the budget. This show does have the budget, it's just cursed with a writer who thinks he can improve on the books and he's wrong, making it "meh".

    This early he's made several incredibly fundamental changes, the main two being the power of the female characters and the nature of the dragon, that will have repercussions going forward and make it hard to even follow the plot of the book series at all. Since the strength of a TV adaptation is its ability to lift a coherent narrative from the books it is based on, that makes me very concerned.
    Last edited by Coniferous; 2022-01-05 at 06:37 PM.

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