1. #2741
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post

    But it is still recognizable as Wheel of Time by the elements it does reuse, right?
    It's recognizable less by the story elements they used and more because they were very vocal about it being an adaptation and sharing some names
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Just like a Romeo and Juliet that uses convertibles and guns is still recognizable even though setting, characters, and other stuff is changed.
    I'd compare it more to recognizable like how that one animated She-ra show was using the Masters of the Universe setting....

    the one that was actually a writer's fan fiction using Masters of the Universe IP instead.



    The romeo and juliet comparison might work if we maybe got rid of both houses... swapped the poison for nyquil. Neither party dies but one gets really drunk instead and oh yeah... they weren't trying to hook up in the first place. Jury is still out on if the cast is culturally appropriate though

  2. #2742
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    It's recognizable less by the story elements they used and more because they were very vocal about it being an adaptation and sharing some names.
    I just rewatched episode 1 after glancing at the script. As a book reader who is very familiar with the plot, I missed so much in the first episode because about 90% of it is different from the book and I was just so turned off by and taken aback by the liberties taken with the plot. None of Sanderson's "same story beats" approach. It's just completely different. I can see how someone who's not familiar with the books can like it, but to me it seems like an abomination. I'm mystified by the approach of "we're going to make an adaptation... but also, we're going to change everything" and "we're not interested in the book fans".

    I have no problem with a pro woman series, just read Broken Earth and thought it was good. I have a problem with twisting an existing series that way because it seems to make a comment that the source material was flawed and needs to be fixed.
    Last edited by Coniferous; 2022-01-07 at 05:14 AM.

  3. #2743
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coniferous View Post
    Perrin killing his wife and basically just moving on to have a crush on Egwene like a week later
    Complete lack of clarity on what happened last time the dragon was alive - is the dark one imprisoned, is he loose? What is the Eye of the World?
    Why does Moiraine say you are sure to die if you go to the Eye of the World and you're not the Dragon? Nothing that makes that clear.
    Was Nynaeve dead? What the hell was that? Egwene can heal fatal or near fatal wounds with no training?
    How did Nynaeve track them? WTF is a "tell"? Like is Moiraine leaving behind particularly pungent farts?
    How did Egwene and Nynaeve suddenly go from 0 to 100 as channelers?
    Why do men go mad? Did they always go mad? What about the previous dragon, did he cause it somehow, and how did that work?
    Perrin never actually had a crush on egwene that was just rand being paranoid and nyneave not helping.

    Lack of clarity for things like the dragon and madness and the dark one aren’t really plot holes there just yet to be explained.

    Moiraine was planning on killing any one who couldn’t resist the dark one at the eye of the world which is why she said they would die, we see her make this clear with rand with the knife to his throat and she thought only the dragon could resist.

    The Nynaeve death thing ya id agree.

    A tell is just a specific way some one covers there tracks so say one people sweeps them away with a branch or breaks a branch they might have bent.

    And I believe they do actually point out that Nynaeve has a mental block in one of the earlier episodes and then she breaks through it when lann is dying.

    For Egwene ya it it does stand out as they never said any thing similar and she could barley make a flame.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  4. #2744
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Oh, this is easy. The more complex a story, the more details tend to matter.
    You could have just said because you say so. Changing story, setting, props, characters, back stories etc is not different between the two "adaptations" being talked about. Neither adhere to the source and change what they need to in order to tell the story their way. It is why "modern" was used as a descriptor instead of just R&J because we all know they are not true to source adaptations.

    Unless of course you need to hate on Wheel of Time and then it is vastly different for reasons.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  5. #2745
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    You could have just said because you say so.
    That's not what I do. That's what you do.

    I give explanations, reasoning, and examples.

    You give nonsensical drivel that misses every point made.

    Please don't ask me to do the same.

  6. #2746
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Perrin never actually had a crush on egwene that was just rand being paranoid and nyneave not helping.

    Lack of clarity for things like the dragon and madness and the dark one aren’t really plot holes there just yet to be explained.

    Moiraine was planning on killing any one who couldn’t resist the dark one at the eye of the world which is why she said they would die, we see her make this clear with rand with the knife to his throat and she thought only the dragon could resist.

    The Nynaeve death thing ya id agree.

    A tell is just a specific way some one covers there tracks so say one people sweeps them away with a branch or breaks a branch they might have bent.

    And I believe they do actually point out that Nynaeve has a mental block in one of the earlier episodes and then she breaks through it when lann is dying.

    For Egwene ya it it does stand out as they never said any thing similar and she could barley make a flame.
    Okay on the tell thing Moiraine having a tell that Lan hasn't noticed in 20 years and Nynaeve noticed in less than a week kind of makes him seem super incompetent doesn't it? Stop making excuses for terrible writing.

  7. #2747
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    It's recognizable less by the story elements they used and more because they were very vocal about it being an adaptation and sharing some names
    So the story elements they used. Names, and whatever else they are vocal about are all story elements. Ajah colors, White Cloaks, Dark One etc are all things recognizable from the books that appear in the show. Is it a different story? Yes. But you have to be lying to yourself to say that you don't recognize anything from Wheel of Time in the show.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Perrin never actually had a crush on egwene that was just rand being paranoid and nyneave not helping.
    And to be fair Egwene is accused of having a thing for Perrin in the books because her gaze lingers when in the Tavern back home. It was by another village girl but there was a subtle hint of such a thing potentially being there but it doesn't go anywhere after that. So the show isn't that far off from the book just changing spot that such a suggestion takes place.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  8. #2748
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Perrin never actually had a crush on egwene that was just rand being paranoid and nyneave not helping.

    Lack of clarity for things like the dragon and madness and the dark one aren’t really plot holes there just yet to be explained.

    Moiraine was planning on killing any one who couldn’t resist the dark one at the eye of the world which is why she said they would die, we see her make this clear with rand with the knife to his throat and she thought only the dragon could resist.

    The Nynaeve death thing ya id agree.

    A tell is just a specific way some one covers there tracks so say one people sweeps them away with a branch or breaks a branch they might have bent.

    And I believe they do actually point out that Nynaeve has a mental block in one of the earlier episodes and then she breaks through it when lann is dying.

    For Egwene ya it it does stand out as they never said any thing similar and she could barley make a flame.
    If the script posted above is accurate, he definitely intended Perrin to have a crush on Egwene. Rafe's comments here support it as well:

    https://www.cbr.com/wheel-of-time-ra...ins-interview/

    But the hole is him just immediately moving on from his wife's death. Because it was an unnecessary additional plot point that doesn't actually fit.

  9. #2749
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    That's not what I do. That's what you do. I give explanations, reasoning, and examples. You give nonsensical drivel that misses every point made. Please don't ask me to do the same.
    Yet that is exactly what you said. You are make an arbitrary distinction between the changes for one not true to source adaptation and another not true to source adaptation. If R&J can change any aspect of the story while keeping it similar and be fine why is Wheel of Time never able to do the same thing? It is a double standard which you hide behind and deflect with your insults and attacks on me. If you had an argument you would address the points I made rather then me the poster.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  10. #2750
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    Okay on the tell thing Moiraine having a tell that Lan hasn't noticed in 20 years and Nynaeve noticed in less than a week kind of makes him seem super incompetent doesn't it? Stop making excuses for terrible writing.
    I mean that completely depends on how they normally go about covering up tracks.

    If lann is the one who normally does it he could not notice the tell, if they split up normally and Moraine covers her own tracks and then lann uses the bond to find her without going the same route he wouldn’t notice the tell, if they stick together and both cover he could miss the tell.

    Really the only way he would know it for sure is if he doubled back when she was in charge of covering there tracks to check her work multiple times which seems like an odd thing to do.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  11. #2751
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So the story elements they used. Names, and whatever else they are vocal about are all story elements. Ajah colors, White Cloaks, Dark One etc are all things recognizable from the books that appear in the show. Is it a different story? Yes. But you have to be lying to yourself to say that you don't recognize anything from Wheel of Time in the show.
    Again... like She-ra... it's using the skin of the IP to do something very different.

  12. #2752
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coniferous View Post
    If the script posted above is accurate, he definitely intended Perrin to have a crush on Egwene. Rafe's comments here support it as well:

    https://www.cbr.com/wheel-of-time-ra...ins-interview/

    But the hole is him just immediately moving on from his wife's death. Because it was an unnecessary additional plot point that doesn't actually fit.
    Ah then it could just be that it didn’t come across well for me because I didn’t pick up on that at all.

    The wife thing though I agree I really don’t get why it was included or really any of the changes with perrin.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  13. #2753
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    Just don't reply to the troll put them on ignore like most of the thread has.
    Gotta have that echo chamber of sad nerd rage, right?

  14. #2754
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    Again... like She-ra... it's using the skin of the IP to do something very different.
    Is that not what a R&J with guns, cars, and a modern day setting is doing? So what is the difference?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    The wife thing though I agree I really don’t get why it was included or really any of the changes with perrin.
    They actually explained why they did it. Paraphrasing, it was to get some character development right away because he starts off slow in the books and they didn't just want an "unexplained extra" present. It is similar to their explanation for killing off characters or changing roles. They felt like they couldn't keep 200 characters around for small parts here and there so changed things as they wanted to.

    Their reasoning makes sense even if it is agreeable or not.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  15. #2755
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    They actually explained why they did it. Paraphrasing, it was to get some character development right away because he starts off slow in the books and they didn't just want an "unexplained extra" present. It is similar to their explanation for killing off characters or changing roles. They felt like they couldn't keep 200 characters around for small parts here and there so changed things as they wanted to.

    Their reasoning makes sense even if it is agreeable or not.
    Ok this is actually a good point I hadn’t thought about. Perrin doesn’t really have all that much explicit personality early on his the big quite guy who takes extra time to think things over and him following the gang around silently pondering would actually be really silly and funny on screen.

    Don’t quite think the wife bit was the best way to fix that problem but I could see why they needed to do something.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  16. #2756
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Ok this is actually a good point I hadn’t thought about. Perrin doesn’t really have all that much explicit personality early on his the big quite guy who takes extra time to think things over and him following the gang around silently pondering would actually be really silly and funny on screen.

    Don’t quite think the wife bit was the best way to fix that problem but I could see why they needed to do something.
    I don't think they do - I think one of the weakest parts of the show was simultaneously trying to develop every single character immediately. Most of that development came at the cost of developing Rand's character (which is what most of book one is about) with Perrin somewhat on the side but gradually becoming more interesting as the seasons progress. In the book Perrin starts to get developed during the journey but they cut that part out to develop the warder, who they then killed off. Of course this was part of developing Lan, which you also don't need to do immediately - he's the Aragorn of this series, he develops very slowly and that's part of what is fun to watch - he's just a cool unassuming guy who helps them on the journey, the when they arrive in the borderlands they discover that he's famous (just like when Strider/Aragorn arrives with the Hobbits in Rivendell).
    Last edited by Coniferous; 2022-01-07 at 06:12 AM.

  17. #2757
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Is that not what a R&J with guns, cars, and a modern day setting is doing? So what is the difference?
    When they made Sh-ra the animated series they basically took the characters from masters of the universe, centered it around she-ra and instead of using the established materiel the author wrote their own fanfic instead.

    edit:

    also R&J with guns... well West Side story is a closer match to R&J than this WoT is to the books. Hell Basilisk actually still holds more true to R&J with it's warring Ninja clans motif. Those still have the two main groups in disagreement with the leading roles being star crossed lovers swooning over each other still being main features as they try and work out how they can be together....

    With this adaptation you simply have the same names thrown around in a mixed up fashion and a not insignificant number of details drastically altered to include such things as their ages, marital status, point in meeting, and motivations. Add in the fundamental changes to what the one power is, apparently, and it begs to question... what the hell is going on. If they didn't explicitly state this was an adaptation and use the exact same names and terminology I wouldn't be so quick to link the two.
    Last edited by mickybrighteyes; 2022-01-07 at 06:11 AM.

  18. #2758
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coniferous View Post
    I don't think they do - I think one of the weakest parts of the show was simultaneously trying to develop every single character immediately. Most of that development came at the cost of developing Rand's character (which is what most of book one is about) with Perrin somewhat on the side but gradually becoming more interesting as the seasons progress. In the book Perrin starts to get developed during the journey but they cut that part out to develop the warder, who they then killed off.
    I’d agree that they don’t need to develop every one immediately but Perrin more then any one else is quite and slow for a large portion of the early books. In a book I think this works just fine but in a show it’s a lot more awkward.

    If the show had like a 15 episode first season and the first 3 or so were all about the two rivers and they made sure to focus on him and how he’s always helping out and being thoughtful if not talkative id say it would be fine but I also think a fantasy show needs faster start to grab none book fans to really get a foot hold.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  19. #2759
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    [...] I also think a fantasy show needs faster start to grab none book fans to really get a foot hold.
    this is sadly true for most series. Slow starts just don't get people, whatever the setting/ip/etc it needs a proper hook to draw people in. Shame really cause some things really do need proper build up and most people refuse to pay attention unless there's something they can grasp quickly.

  20. #2760
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    When they made Sh-ra the animated series they basically took the characters from masters of the universe, centered it around she-ra and instead of using the established materiel the author wrote their own fanfic instead.
    I’m not a big he man person but I’m pretty sure that’s the whole point of She Ra and has been since she got her own show in the 80’s.



    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    this is sadly true for most series. Slow starts just don't get people, whatever the setting/ip/etc it needs a proper hook to draw people in. Shame really cause some things really do need proper build up and most people refuse to pay attention unless there's something they can grasp quickly.
    More or less ya. I think a slower book accurate version of the show would be better in pretty much every way but I also think it would likely flop for none book readers and panned as far to slow and boring.

    What we got might very well flop as well but I think the initial grab is much stronger then what we other wise would have seen.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

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