[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Xath]

Like how Rand and Aviendha are supposed to look like possibly being related? Certainly won't feel that way when you watch the show...

Why does Hollywood hate gingers so much?

It is very weird how many redheads get replaced in both movies and TV compared to the source material.

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The south park meme... no really. They cater to the lowest common denominator. It's why it's common in shows for characters to scream out their motivations now.

That makes me feel angry

[Nymrohd]

Ohhh. Gotcha.

It's another "brown people in my white fantasy" thing. Hokay.

I mean if you have read the books you'd know every race would be represented. The most successful civilization by far is mix race and led by a black woman. The predominantly black Sea Folk are shown to be far more stable and successful than any of the Mainland civilizations. The mainlands themselves would have complexions ranging from east asian to arabs and latinos. But yes, the white writer who wrote this more than three decades ago did start with a white village. Go a few books forward and you'd have a wide selection of races in your main cast. They could easily have Saldeans and thus Faile be arabs or Jewish and she'd be in half the episodes. Tuon comes later as a young black woman. No one has had any issue with the casting of Lan because I'd probably think of Malkieri as Japanese or Korean. You could make Min any race and it wouldn't matter because her race is not really focal to her character.

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Like how Rand and Aviendha are supposed to look like possibly being related? Certainly won't feel that way when you watch the show...

Why does Hollywood hate gingers so much?

Maybe they don't have enough options (Really you'd have to search a lot to find all the extremely tall gingers from books 4 on. The book has hundreds of them in speaking parts). Also maybe it's a make up thing?

[Rennadrel]

Like how Rand and Aviendha are supposed to look like possibly being related? Certainly won't feel that way when you watch the show...

Why does Hollywood hate gingers so much?

Gingers truly are the most oppressed people.

[Nymrohd]

Gingers truly are the most oppressed people.

Left handed people.

[eschatological]

Left handed people.

We have the brains to make up for the shorter lifespan of living in a right-handed world.

[VMSmith]

I watched the first episode last night and found it mostly enjoyable if a bit non-explanatory in a way that left me wondering what was going on and where these monsters came from. I imagine the next episode will elaborate further. But I had to come to this thread to find out why people have hated this show so much because, based on just the first episode, it seemed fairly standard fantasy fare.

After looking at just the last couple of pages I think the main issue is the overdoing it attempt at diversity. As someone who's never read the books, it wasn't off-putting to me at all but I can absolutely see how people with pre-conceived ideas of what characters look like would be upset. If I had read the books first, I'd likely be annoyed at that as well. But, as a total newcomer, this was not a problem for me other than the fact that it was obvious that it was a Many Colors of Benetton thing going on and I instinctively knew the characters had likely been race-swapped.

But, reading through this thread, I see that the diversity also presents a problem for the story, itself, in the regard that this village was supposed to be very much isolated from the wider world and that the rest of the world is indeed populated by diverse types of humans. So, it seems like the diversity was done just for the sake of upfront showing how diverse the creators are, and will sacrifice an integral part of the story. I'll be interested to see how the show resolves that, whether they just handwave it away as "every village everywhere is incredibly diverse!" or "only the white villages in the book are now diverse, but the minority kingdoms remain as they were in the book". I'm hoping for the former, fearing it's likely the latter.

Still an enjoyable story, so far. I'll reserve judgment on how important the insistence on diversity affects the actual story as I watch more. But, so long as the story is good and does not trip up on modern racial politics too much I can see myself enjoying this quite well.

[Nurasu]

I watched the first episode last night and found it mostly enjoyable if a bit non-explanatory in a way that left me wondering what was going on and where these monsters came from. I imagine the next episode will elaborate further. But I had to come to this thread to find out why people have hated this show so much because, based on just the first episode, it seemed fairly standard fantasy fare.

After looking at just the last couple of pages I think the main issue is the overdoing it attempt at diversity. As someone who's never read the books, it wasn't off-putting to me at all but I can absolutely see how people with pre-conceived ideas of what characters look like would be upset. If I had read the books first, I'd likely be annoyed at that as well. But, as a total newcomer, this was not a problem for me other than the fact that it was obvious that it was a Many Colors of Benetton thing going on and I instinctively knew the characters had likely been race-swapped.

But, reading through this thread, I see that the diversity also presents a problem for the story, itself, in the regard that this village was supposed to be very much isolated from the wider world and that the rest of the world is indeed populated by diverse types of humans. So, it seems like the diversity was done just for the sake of upfront showing how diverse the creators are, and will sacrifice an integral part of the story. I'll be interested to see how the show resolves that, whether they just handwave it away as "every village everywhere is incredibly diverse!" or "only the white villages in the book are now diverse, but the minority kingdoms remain as they were in the book". I'm hoping for the former, fearing it's likely the latter.

Still an enjoyable story, so far. I'll reserve judgment on how important the insistence on diversity affects the actual story as I watch more. But, so long as the story is good and does not trip up on modern racial politics too much I can see myself enjoying this quite well.

Diversity had absolutely nothing to do with why the show was bad. The problems were entirely the character development, writing, and pacing, which you'll find after episode 1.

[Orby]

Diversity had absolutely nothing to do with why the show was bad. The problems were entirely the character development, writing, and pacing, which you'll find after episode 1.

For me it was mainly pacing. The amount cut and the needless addage half way through, that added very little. I actually liked the casting (for the most part, I think there are two casting choices that I am not fond of), I think the script just gives them some bad material. As well as the fact the quality just dropped like a brick the more the show went on.

I did like Shadar Logoth portrayal in the show though. I don't like what was cut from the books but the appearance of Shadar Logoth when they arrive and the eerie presentation of the city itself is better than I imagined, and was the biggest highlight for me. Nothing has come close to wowing me as much as that after they left. :P





I mean it's just the tone, the sense of dread, I get anxiety just looking at how empty and dead it is, even the way its shot when they are on the ground, everything is out of perspective or shot from down low.it feels like the city is looming... I know I am harping on this one episode that had Shadar Logoth in but it was seriously best looking thing in the show and nothing comes close. Its probably the closest thing they got right in the show (minus the stuff that was cut from those chapter featuring Shadar Logoth of course) . lol

If ever a topic comes up. "Whats a Thing You Like in a show you hated" I would say Shadar Logoth in Wheel of Time xD

[Nurasu]

I did like Shadar Logoth portrayal in the show though.

I actually genuinely agree with you here, as long as you ignore the terrible pacing of them getting there and the terrible writing for how they left! =]

[Orby]

I actually genuinely agree with you here, as long as you ignore the terrible pacing of them getting there and the terrible writing for how they left! =]

lol yea... which was a shame, because the books really add more of the moment for Rand and Co when they are in the city. I do think the whole city should have been an episode to itself, rather than 30 minutes of the show.. but you know... pacing, gotta go fast :P

[VMSmith]

The problems were entirely the character development, writing, and pacing, which you'll find after episode 1.

I'll definitely see since I plan on watching more. I've just been assuming based on the last few pages of this thread that the main complaint had been the casting decisions. In the first episode, at least, the only writing issue for me was that not enough was explained. I felt a bit like the show expected that I'd read the books and understood the world already.

[bledgor]

I'll definitely see since I plan on watching more. I've just been assuming based on the last few pages of this thread that the main complaint had been the casting decisions. In the first episode, at least, the only writing issue for me was that not enough was explained. I felt a bit like the show expected that I'd read the books and understood the world already.

Naw 1st episode was meh, think it was episode 4 or 5 that was okay, the rest are bad, and the finale is utter fucking garbage.

[kenn9530]

I'll definitely see since I plan on watching more. I've just been assuming based on the last few pages of this thread that the main complaint had been the casting decisions. In the first episode, at least, the only writing issue for me was that not enough was explained. I felt a bit like the show expected that I'd read the books and understood the world already.

I have not read the books and understood what was happening so they are teling the story just fine, there is only so much you can fit into 10 episodes, ppl just like to complain about everything, the show was pretty decent and worth a watch.

The main ppl complaining are the mainly the ones that have read and enjoyed the book, but pleasing a book fan is very hard to do because no matter how a show is done they will never be completely happy.

[Nurasu]

I have not read the books and understood what was happening so they are teling the story just fine, there is only so much you can fit into 10 episodes, ppl just like to complain about everything, the show was pretty decent and worth a watch.

You just love things that will probably be canceled before they're ever finished, don't you?

[Triceron]

You just love things that will probably be canceled before they're ever finished, don't you?

To be honest the only thing that decides whether it would be cancelled or not is how Amazon execs consider the show's performance in terms of its ROI. I don't think we have any metrics that are indicating it's going to be cancelled, especially if it's got at least 2 more seasons already greenlit.

[Gumble]

I'll definitely see since I plan on watching more. I've just been assuming based on the last few pages of this thread that the main complaint had been the casting decisions. In the first episode, at least, the only writing issue for me was that not enough was explained. I felt a bit like the show expected that I'd read the books and understood the world already.

The "diversity" was less a direct problem and more a talking point for the showrunner prior to the release of the show. Rather than talk up how faithful he was going to be to the books, or how he couldn't wait for you to see X, Y, and Z, he played up the diversity angle which made fans of the book concerned. It could be done (frankly everyone from the Two Rivers was supposed to look quite tanned (both a bit of pigment and alot of time outside), so the lily white Matt comes off strange. Rand was supposed to be quite tan as well, for all his red hair and grey eyes, but they could have worked inside those lines. They didn't, and people were concerned what else they would change.

If it was just that and the actors were awesome and the show flowed well, people probably would have shut up and enjoyed it. However, most of the cast was bland to bad, or ruined by the changes made to the story. They ruined most of Emond's Field and made the town feel seedy and sketchy. They aged up the characters so they could start throwing sex in (which is pretty minimal in the books, especially at the start). They made Perrin both kill a wife he never had to "make him sad" and then made so little effort to pay off any of his story from book 1 that he may as well not have been in it. They made the focus of the story the girls, whether that was agenda or attempt to disguise who the dragon was... eh.... and then utterly removed any stakes from their world at the end of the season. They ruined Lan and made him whiny and a pump-and-dump champ. They completed ignored Caemlyn. They cast an old unattractive woman for Min who is never going to look good in tight pants.

Combine that with the stuff they added in, both characters and places that added nothing to the story but stole runtime hours, and you ended up with one of the most disappointing shows since GoT S8.


It did make me break the books out and start re-reading them, so it scores a point for that, but it makes the show an even paler World That Might Be.

[rhorle]

You just love things that will probably be canceled before they're ever finished, don't you?

It has already been renewed for Season 3. This "It will be canceled" has been said from day one but has yet to come true. Strange, right? The show just isn't for certain people while it is popular for others and hitting the right metrics for Amazon.

[Nurasu]

It has already been renewed for Season 3. This "It will be canceled" has been said from day one but has yet to come true. Strange, right? The show just isn't for certain people while it is popular for others and hitting the right metrics for Amazon.

It really was more of a joke due to his... posting history. That's not to say I wouldn't be shocked if they actually finish the series though.

[kenn9530]

You just love things that will probably be canceled before they're ever finished, don't you?

Lots of things get cancelled regardless of how good they are or not, a cancelled show doesnt mean its good or bad.

Even the best shows can get cancelled after a few seasons and medicore things can carry on for years.

[Xath]

Diversity had absolutely nothing to do with why the show was bad. The problems were entirely the character development, writing, and pacing, which you'll find after episode 1.

It had a lot of issues but making Two Rivers not homogenous and basically painting Rand with a giant neon sign as different besides just hair color is a big issue. It also removed the sense of extreme isolation that was present in the village. Tam coming back with an "outlander" wife was a huge deal and the only significant difference from two rivers that Kari had was hair color. The extreme isolation of EF in particular was used as justification for the old blood still being strong there as well. There is an absurd amount of diversity in wheel of time and Women pretty much hold all the power pre Rand. It just isn't present in EF because it's a super isolated village on the back end of nowhere. That Rafe and co didn't get that just shows how little respect they had for the source they were supposedly adapting and totally loved.