[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Konteil]

Diversity had absolutely nothing to do with why the show was bad. The problems were entirely the character development, writing, and pacing, which you'll find after episode 1.

the diversity is the tip of the iceberg. bigger problems come later. for example they have cut apart major events and charachter development that are incredibly important later in the series. and a few have been chopped so bad that main plot points are going to have to be rewritten or scrapped all together. this will make the end of the story almost impossible to tell. they made some pretty big sacrifices. it was almost like they made the story before finishing the series to see how it all ended. thats the part that made me stop watching it. there are whole arcs of the books that are so mangled the story is something completely diffrent now. the only things the books and show have in common at this point are names of people and places. all else is something totally different. They had a masterpiece of high fantasy that was complete and fantastic and they decided to write a total different story with some of the same characters. its terrible.

my opinion as it is stated. im sure some will agree or disagree and that is ok.

[Witchblade77]

what is fascinating to me is that if you watch their animated shorts (which can finally be watched normally instead of fighting with their xray feature which never seemed to work for me)? they did not cut out the gender binary on the contrary, the short that specifically talks about saidin and saidar - is very book accurate. so... I wonder if Liadrin's declaration is not meant to be taken at face value, given her strongly implied and all but spelled out bias and all?

[Konteil]

also i could beat them half to death for what they did to perrin. and the changes to mat and his family are criminal. those changes affect teh whole series and take away somethings that are needed at the end. not to mention the arcs at the beginning books. with what they have done to him itll be almost impossible to make him the son of battles. he was modeled after Odin and now hes just nothing.

[Mace]

what is fascinating to me is that if you watch their animated shorts (which can finally be watched normally instead of fighting with their xray feature which never seemed to work for me)? they did not cut out the gender binary on the contrary, the short that specifically talks about saidin and saidar - is very book accurate. so... I wonder if Liadrin's declaration is not meant to be taken at face value, given her strongly implied and all but spelled out bias and all?

I noticed that, they are fully aware of the source material, and still felt they needed to change something that was already woke and fit.

BUt i seriously suspect that it is an activist writing team wanting to make sure they get their messaging across is why we get those totally un-necessary character, scenes and tone changes.. none of it brings out the books , makes the story better or adapted for the screen. All of them are changes to tell you this is how you should think about this and that, this is how the world should work, this is how you should behave . THis is our fantasy - middle finger to Jordan.

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also i could beat them half to death for what they did to perrin. and the changes to mat and his family are criminal. those changes affect teh whole series and take away somethings that are needed at the end. not to mention the arcs at the beginning books. with what they have done to him itll be almost impossible to make him the son of battles. he was modeled after Odin and now hes just nothing.

Omg.. PErrrin - totally ruined him.. of all the male characters, he was ruined the most. They also ruined the female characters, all of them.. boring, over powered, and in your face.. not balanced well at all.

[Witchblade77]

I noticed that, they are fully aware of the source material, and still felt they needed to change something that was already woke and fit.

BUt i seriously suspect that it is an activist writing team wanting to make sure they get their messaging across is why we get those totally un-necessary character, scenes and tone changes.. none of it brings out the books , makes the story better or adapted for the screen. All of them are changes to tell you this is how you should think about this and that, this is how the world should work, this is how you should behave . THis is our fantasy - middle finger to Jordan.

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Omg.. PErrrin - totally ruined him.. of all the male characters, he was ruined the most. They also ruined the female characters, all of them.. boring, over powered, and in your face.. not balanced well at all.

I'm finding equally amusing that you take what I said and then flip it entirely on its head somehow. what I was saying is that Liandrin is very clearly shown to be a misandrist. a raging one. and she is also very clearly an antagonist, a character we are NOT meant to like or relate to. and given that they ARE aware of how saidin and saidar actualy works - maybe that's just one more of those things uttered by Liandrin that is NOT meant to be taken at face value and as a fact, when they specifically show her to say things that are NOT factual.

as a sort of aside, I really do miss Rand, Matt and Thom's adventures in pretending to learn to be gleamen while on the boat, that was fantastic in the book and did a great job of showing Matt's deteriorating mental state thanks to that dagger.

I do not think they ruined Perrin or Lan either. dented slightly, maybe but NOT.. ruined. the only one that I feel like doesn't belong is Morraine. it feels like a Rosamunde Pikes vehicle a little too much and she still doesn't feel like book Morraine at ALL to me, unlike the rest of the characters, and yet she gets so much extra screen time at the cost of character development for everyone else.

[bledgor]

I'm finding equally amusing that you take what I said and then flip it entirely on its head somehow. what I was saying is that Liandrin is very clearly shown to be a misandrist. a raging one. and she is also very clearly an antagonist, a character we are NOT meant to like or relate to. and given that they ARE aware of how saidin and saidar actualy works - maybe that's just one more of those things uttered by Liandrin that is NOT meant to be taken at face value and as a fact, when they specifically show her to say things that are NOT factual.

as a sort of aside, I really do miss Rand, Matt and Thom's adventures in pretending to learn to be gleamen while on the boat, that was fantastic in the book and did a great job of showing Matt's deteriorating mental state thanks to that dagger.

I do not think they ruined Perrin or Lan either. dented slightly, maybe but NOT.. ruined. the only one that I feel like doesn't belong is Morraine. it feels like a Rosamunde Pikes vehicle a little too much and she still doesn't feel like book Morraine at ALL to me, unlike the rest of the characters, and yet she gets so much extra screen time at the cost of character development for everyone else.

I don't know, both feel pretty fucked to me. Show Lan never gets the right vibes compared to book Lan to me, like all they needed is a scene where he teaches/measures each of the boys abilities with their weapons while they are traveling and it would have done so much for his character.

Like someone else said earlier in the thread would also allow him to toss out the line "if you are going to have a heron marked blade I will make sure you are worthy (or don't dishonor it or don't let the blade down, etc)" and you can also explain the heron marked blade at the same time. At the same time would show the blood of the EF/there abilities so that when they do things later it doesn't feel ass pulled, we know they have a good core to start from and introduced Lan teaching them early. So many MINOR things they could have done that take seconds that would make huge improvements to the story. Like this scene would be maybe 5-10 seconds, and it develops all three boys, Lan, and sets the stage for them being competent weapon wielders later on.

[Witchblade77]

I don't know, both feel pretty fucked to me. Show Lan never gets the right vibes compared to book Lan to me, like all they needed is a scene where he teaches/measures each of the boys abilities with their weapons while they are traveling and it would have done so much for his character.

Like someone else said earlier in the thread would also allow him to toss out the line "if you are going to have a heron marked blade I will make sure you are worthy (or don't dishonor it or don't let the blade down, etc)" and you can also explain the heron marked blade at the same time. At the same time would show the blood of the EF/there abilities so that when they do things later it doesn't feel ass pulled, we know they have a good core to start from and introduced Lan teaching them early. So many MINOR things they could have done that take seconds that would make huge improvements to the story. Like this scene would be maybe 5-10 seconds, and it develops all three boys, Lan, and sets the stage for them being competent weapon wielders later on.

I don't disagree, those scenes would have helped a lot, but also and this is not a direct reply to you, but rather complaint about Lan and Nyneave's tracking - in the books he doesn't notice her either, Morraine does because she can feel her connection to the power. (they did skip the whole part where its not the first time Nyneave finds them and just condensed it, but it is a thing that happens)

but anyways, the only things I dislike about how they portrayed Perrin is that they gave him a wife that they proceeded to immediately fridge while cutting out his interactions with Elias. though I have a feeling that Elias and the wolves bit they couldn't figure out how to film, seeing as so much of it is Perrin's inner dialogue. I'm not a fan of the whole love triangle, but I see where they got an idea for it (Perrin's reactions to that young Tinker, though to me they came across more like overprotective older brother, but tinker did accuse him of jealousy and I think that's where Rafe got his not so brilliant idea to run with, blech)

but anyways, ending is.. its not good in both book and show. but I'm still willing to give the show a benefit of a doubt mainly because it was external factors in a form of covid that altered the writing of the last few episodes and the ending, not the original intention

[Konteil]

I noticed that, they are fully aware of the source material, and still felt they needed to change something that was already woke and fit.

BUt i seriously suspect that it is an activist writing team wanting to make sure they get their messaging across is why we get those totally un-necessary character, scenes and tone changes.. none of it brings out the books , makes the story better or adapted for the screen. All of them are changes to tell you this is how you should think about this and that, this is how the world should work, this is how you should behave . THis is our fantasy - middle finger to Jordan.

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Omg.. PErrrin - totally ruined him.. of all the male characters, he was ruined the most. They also ruined the female characters, all of them.. boring, over powered, and in your face.. not balanced well at all.

i think perrin showed how far they were willing to fuck the show up to make a point. hes ruined. now when he meets faile it will be a shoehorn guilt ridden mess. and not meeting elyas when they were with the tinkers? WTF

[Mace]

I'm finding equally amusing that you take what I said and then flip it entirely on its head somehow. what I was saying is that Liandrin is very clearly shown to be a misandrist. a raging one. and she is also very clearly an antagonist, a character we are NOT meant to like or relate to. and given that they ARE aware of how saidin and saidar actualy works - maybe that's just one more of those things uttered by Liandrin that is NOT meant to be taken at face value and as a fact, when they specifically show her to say things that are NOT factual.

as a sort of aside, I really do miss Rand, Matt and Thom's adventures in pretending to learn to be gleamen while on the boat, that was fantastic in the book and did a great job of showing Matt's deteriorating mental state thanks to that dagger.

I do not think they ruined Perrin or Lan either. dented slightly, maybe but NOT.. ruined. the only one that I feel like doesn't belong is Morraine. it feels like a Rosamunde Pikes vehicle a little too much and she still doesn't feel like book Morraine at ALL to me, unlike the rest of the characters, and yet she gets so much extra screen time at the cost of character development for everyone else.

I should have been more specific in my quote.

I do not like their versions of things, I think they are inferior to the big, considerably so.. there are many adaptations I've liked that are really different from their source books, I wanted to see RJs work.

I'm not saying the show is irredeemable - they can "adjust and bring things round to make it interesting and much closer to the books, but that reamins to be seen. I heard they want to get back to the books in Season 3. We shall see.

I don't mind them doing more of characters tahn the book does, but not changing them, delving deepr, showing more is something I'm always up for... chanign them ..not so much -unless they are better - but then that is so risky. especially if you're injecting your politics which is so opinioated.

[bledgor]

I don't disagree, those scenes would have helped a lot, but also and this is not a direct reply to you, but rather complaint about Lan and Nyneave's tracking - in the books he doesn't notice her either, Morraine does because she can feel her connection to the power. (they did skip the whole part where its not the first time Nyneave finds them and just condensed it, but it is a thing that happens)

I think most of peoples issue with the shows tracking is they didn't show Nnyeanves method which felt ass pulled because they say it is a "tell" rather than something like her sensing Morraine using Saidar (which Lan couldn't sense and would thus make some sense), especially considering Lan is supposed to be an all around bad ass in many things including tracking.

but anyways, the only things I dislike about how they portrayed Perrin is that they gave him a wife that they proceeded to immediately fridge while cutting out his interactions with Elias. though I have a feeling that Elias and the wolves bit they couldn't figure out how to film, seeing as so much of it is Perrin's inner dialogue. I'm not a fan of the whole love triangle, but I see where they got an idea for it (Perrin's reactions to that young Tinker, though to me they came across more like overprotective older brother, but tinker did accuse him of jealousy and I think that's where Rafe got his not so brilliant idea to run with, blech)

I hated the fridging, I hated the love triangle, I hated him standing like a coward while Fain killed Loial (yes I know the show is ass pulling, but he was stabbed with the dagger from Shadar Logoth, he should be dead). Honestly he did basically nothing in the show but act like a fool/coward, and I hated every second of him.

but anyways, ending is.. its not good in both book and show. but I'm still willing to give the show a benefit of a doubt mainly because it was external factors in a form of covid that altered the writing of the last few episodes and the ending, not the original intention

I don't agree, book had a better start and middle, so the ending wasn't as bad to me (it was rough still) compared to the show. I mean the finale looked AWFUL in CGI, the fact they had Moraine and Rand traveling through blight yet able to see the wall just before they reach the eye of the world, the horrible logic of using 5 women to link/channel to kill the Trolloc army instead of Rand using the untainted pool of Saidin, the fact they introduced a Sa'angreal for Rand to randomly use to defeat Ba'alzamon, the way he defeated Ba'alzamon, the horn being below the throne room,etc. Thinking about it they did nothing right/well in the finale.

Not to mention they also did my boy Thom dirty, and COMPLETELY miscasted Min (not the only miscast).

[Mace]

i think perrin showed how far they were willing to fuck the show up to make a point. hes ruined. now when he meets faile it will be a shoehorn guilt ridden mess. and not meeting elyas when they were with the tinkers? WTF

Yeh.. his motivations for literally his whole character are changed.. and not for the better - this doesn't add more weight to perrin, they make him feel patehetic.

They didn't need to change that.. again the charm of WoT is lost.. this could have been PG for kids but very good, appealing to all, sort of how LotR or STar Wars originals could - didn't need to be R-rated GOT at all.

[Pratt]

...they needed to change something that was already woke and fit...

When I first heard they were making the show I thought, hey they finally picked a series that's just kind of naturally woke so they won't need to shoehorn things in, but lol was I wrong.

[Strawberry]

I never read the books. The show was above average though I felt there was a lot of toxic feminism in it.

[Xath]

I never read the books. The show was above average though I felt there was a lot of toxic feminism in it.

The show was absolute trash whether or not you knew the source material. Incredibly incoherent plot lines shoe horned in stuff that didn't contribute to the plot like the warder funeral. Straight up fridging to provide motivation in the first episode. Bunch of added nude scenes to GoT it. Incredibly inconsistent power including the "chosen one" getting overshadowed in the finale.

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I don't disagree, those scenes would have helped a lot, but also and this is not a direct reply to you, but rather complaint about Lan and Nyneave's tracking - in the books he doesn't notice her either, Morraine does because she can feel her connection to the power. (they did skip the whole part where its not the first time Nyneave finds them and just condensed it, but it is a thing that happens)

but anyways, the only things I dislike about how they portrayed Perrin is that they gave him a wife that they proceeded to immediately fridge while cutting out his interactions with Elias. though I have a feeling that Elias and the wolves bit they couldn't figure out how to film, seeing as so much of it is Perrin's inner dialogue. I'm not a fan of the whole love triangle, but I see where they got an idea for it (Perrin's reactions to that young Tinker, though to me they came across more like overprotective older brother, but tinker did accuse him of jealousy and I think that's where Rafe got his not so brilliant idea to run with, blech)

but anyways, ending is.. its not good in both book and show. but I'm still willing to give the show a benefit of a doubt mainly because it was external factors in a form of covid that altered the writing of the last few episodes and the ending, not the original intention

He didn't notice her watching them from like 50 yards away she didn't sneak up on him and pull a weapon lol huge fucking difference.

[rhorle]

This...show is still alive? Seriously?

It even has a third season approved already. Almost as if the constant hate here is just a vocal minority and those people aren't part of the target audience.

[Xath]

It even has a third season approved already. Almost as if the constant hate here is just a vocal minority and those people aren't part of the target audience.

Yeah because stuff has never been quietly canceled after being approved :P this shit is going to get nuked off the face of amazon and you will pretend you never heard of it because it would mean your predictions about it last oh so long will have been proven wrong.

[Triceron]

Yeah because stuff has never been quietly canceled after being approved :P this shit is going to get nuked off the face of amazon and you will pretend you never heard of it because it would mean your predictions about it last oh so long will have been proven wrong.

Eh, that's just wishfulfillment.

You clearly don't understand Amazon and their plans if you really think they're gonna cancel it because of the vocal minority here.

[rhorle]

Yeah because stuff has never been quietly canceled after being approved :P this shit is going to get nuked off the face of amazon and you will pretend you never heard of it because it would mean your predictions about it last oh so long will have been proven wrong.

Things like that were said after season 1 and it got a season 2. Season 2 hasn't even aired and Amazon has already approved a season 3. It is a popular enough show that Amazon feels like investing for 3 seasons. Could it get cancelled before season 4 or could season 3 get cancelled? Sure. It is however silly to ignore the success it has found just because people want to surround themselves with something they don't even like.

[Rennadrel]

Well if season 2 bombs, it will get pulled. And considering how much they fucked up the entire season, I can only imagine how shit the next season is going to be. I won't be subjecting myself to such garbage though.

[Smallfruitbat]

Things like that were said after season 1 and it got a season 2. Season 2 hasn't even aired and Amazon has already approved a season 3. It is a popular enough show that Amazon feels like investing for 3 seasons. Could it get cancelled before season 4 or could season 3 get cancelled? Sure. It is however silly to ignore the success it has found just because people want to surround themselves with something they don't even like.

Sadly, there are a lot of people who will overlook the flaws because they enjoy the changes; strong women dominating the world, men being subservient or useless, gay representation etc. I won't watch S2 because at this point I think the show is irredeemable with the current show runner. Hate watching has a massive effect on the viewing figures, Amazon don't care what your opinion is as long as you're consuming their product.