[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Nymrohd]

I have to say for so many people who seem to think the show is trash, its generating quite the amount of discussion. I have a feeling the producers would be happy people are still talking about it months after release.

Eh, the people who read the books probably will be discussing this forever. The Wheel of Time is a beloved fantasy series. It has conventions and its own little active forums on the internet.
Really it would have had other forms of adaptation but imo the magic system never really allowed for a good interpretation in tabletop (WotC did one which I own but it was very bad and did not attract much interest). The series could support a CRPG and maybe the series could build interest for something like that. You could easily do a story either in the past (I did a campaign using the TTRPG set in the Trolloc wars that included a male Aiel channeler bonded to a Green sister) or in the near future (we know war eventually breaks with the Seanchan and about the breaking of the Dragon's Peace).

[Gumble]

I have to say for so many people who seem to think the show is trash, its generating quite the amount of discussion. I have a feeling the producers would be happy people are still talking about it months after release.

It remains to be seen if all of those people will hate-watch S2 or if the discussion actually dissuades non-fans from getting into it.

I'll probably see more youtube videos that comment about S2 then I will see any of actual S2. Even then, my expectations are so low that unless they said "Rape Judkins was fired and we fixed it", I can't see myself bothering with S2..... however commenting on how big a disappointment the show was after decades of being a WoT fan..... yea that part isn't going away anytime soon.

[VMSmith]

Glad to hear you and your wife are enjoying it. As others have said, I'd be interested in your thoughts once you've finished. I'm curious, do you see yourselves picking up the books once you've seen the show?

Honestly, I hadn't even thought of the possibility. The only time I've ever tried out the books that a show was based on was with True Blood, and I was fairly disappointed with the books. It may just be that whatever media I am first exposed to is the version that is "real" in my mind.

Right now I'm reading a Drizzt book, a very different version of Beauty and the Beast, a Star Trek novel, and some Roman and Greek history/mythology books so my reading plate is full I may consider the books at some point, though, if the story continues to be interesting.

[bledgor]

Eh, the people who read the books probably will be discussing this forever. The Wheel of Time is a beloved fantasy series. It has conventions and its own little active forums on the internet.
Really it would have had other forms of adaptation but imo the magic system never really allowed for a good interpretation in tabletop (WotC did one which I own but it was very bad and did not attract much interest). The series could support a CRPG and maybe the series could build interest for something like that. You could easily do a story either in the past (I did a campaign using the TTRPG set in the Trolloc wars that included a male Aiel channeler bonded to a Green sister) or in the near future (we know war eventually breaks with the Seanchan and about the breaking of the Dragon's Peace).

Man I feel if they did a tabletop similar to Arkham Horror for the sanity system/male casters, you would have the base for a fun game from just that. A Baldur's Gate style RPG for PC would also probably be great fun.

[Orby]

It remains to be seen if all of those people will hate-watch S2 or if the discussion actually dissuades non-fans from getting into it.

I'll probably see more youtube videos that comment about S2 then I will see any of actual S2. Even then, my expectations are so low that unless they said "Rape Judkins was fired and we fixed it", I can't see myself bothering with S2..... however commenting on how big a disappointment the show was after decades of being a WoT fan..... yea that part isn't going away anytime soon.

I have already decided I wont be watching season 2, I am pretty determined when I say I wont watch something, but I am pretty sure they'll be alot of hate watchers. I don't find that productive of my time. I never got the idea behind watching something you dislike, and enjoying the fact you dislike it so you can be negative about it. I know for youtubers it generates clicks. so they can revel in negativity, but for me, I wont watch because I have no faith in it getting better and I would rather watch something I love.

Not to say the show was the worst thing ever, I gave it a 5/10 in my review of season 1. I liked the casting (for the most part), I liked the acting, the scenes and locations that were good were very good. My problems were the lack of development and connection to characters, the pacing, the amount missed or cut from the books, the magic system and lack of world building. And the pointless new content they added that took me right out of the story. I liked Episode 1 and 2, but it just kept losing me after that and by the last episode I was out for good.

With that said I'll still come here to talk about Wheel of Time, cos its a franchise I care about.

[Rennadrel]

An animated adaptation was and still is the way to go, in my opinion. No issues of characters aging out of their roles over years of production and more effort can be put into telling the entire story. I think Amazon's 8 episodes per season formula is definitely the biggest failure of the series aside from some really poor creative liberties being taken. 16 episodes at like an hour each would have made it much easier to tell the story more in-depth and given all of the characters more scope and the screen time for their much needed development.

[Nymrohd]

Man I feel if they did a tabletop similar to Arkham Horror for the sanity system/male casters, you would have the base for a fun game from just that. A Baldur's Gate style RPG for PC would also probably be great fun.

I don't know, channelers during the book era are insanely powerful compared to non-channelers. From what the books suggest, channeling in the Trolloc Wars era was probably not nearly as advanced; they had some powerful Aes Sedai when it came to raw power but they still lacked all the finesse that people like Rand, Nynaeve, Elayne and Egwene added and spread among the modern channelers. I mean it seems clear that the Aes Sedai order is probably the least advanced compared to everyone else due to extreme adherence to tradition and probably due to the Black Ajah murdering exceptional channelers.

But a CRPG can make it work much better because it matters far less if non-channelers are less powerful if you can only recruit so many channelers for your group. So I agree that a CRPG would work well, either concurrently with the books or at a different point in time.

[bledgor]

I don't know, channelers during the book era are insanely powerful compared to non-channelers. From what the books suggest, channeling in the Trolloc Wars era was probably not nearly as advanced; they had some powerful Aes Sedai when it came to raw power but they still lacked all the finesse that people like Rand, Nynaeve, Elayne and Egwene added and spread among the modern channelers. I mean it seems clear that the Aes Sedai order is probably the least advanced compared to everyone else due to extreme adherence to tradition and probably due to the Black Ajah murdering exceptional channelers.

But a CRPG can make it work much better because it matters far less if non-channelers are less powerful if you can only recruit so many channelers for your group. So I agree that a CRPG would work well, either concurrently with the books or at a different point in time.

You could also have the personal power limits pretty low, and have the players need to depend on linking/angreal/sa'angreal/ter'angreal to overcome more numerous/powerful fools with a limitation per a day system (aka long rest) or run the chance of burning out.

[Witchblade77]

Honestly, I hadn't even thought of the possibility. The only time I've ever tried out the books that a show was based on was with True Blood, and I was fairly disappointed with the books. It may just be that whatever media I am first exposed to is the version that is "real" in my mind.

Right now I'm reading a Drizzt book, a very different version of Beauty and the Beast, a Star Trek novel, and some Roman and Greek history/mythology books so my reading plate is full I may consider the books at some point, though, if the story continues to be interesting.

your only experience is one of the rare cases where in some ways the show greatly improved on the books, or rather deviated in a way that still kept it very watchable. I say that as someone who used to be a big fan of the books (at least earlier books) but they are very much heavy on supernatural romance with all its tropes and limitations, while the show more or less did away with those.

I liked Wheel of time show. its far from perfect and even when taken on its own without comparing it to source material, it has issues. I HAVE been making my way through the books. they are good, yes better then the show. but very old fashioned in the way they are written (aka they are long and highly description and move slowly, so if you are like me and have attention span issues, they may be difficult to get through, but its not because they are badly written).

[VMSmith]

its far from perfect and even when taken on its own without comparing it to source material, it has issues.

I have no doubt of this, as I feel this is true of pretty much every form of story-telling entertainment. I'm reminded of the author on the train in an episode of Modern Family ... our brains are incapable of covering every detail so there will always be plotholes and plot-hammering and discrepancies, even when just adapting from one medium to the other. Watchman by Zack Snyder was nearly a panel-by-panel recreation of the comic and it was panned for being such, so we actually collectively desire medium translation to be less-than-faithful. Sometimes it works out better (like you mentioned with True Blood) and sometimes it falls flat on it's face.

This is why I feel so much criticism towards so many films is unwarranted. I know people have strong feelings about The Last Jedi and may consider it the worst movie ever ... but they clearly haven't watched Future War or Manos: The Hands of Fate. Or else they are prone to ridiculous hyperbole It wasn't a perfect film, but it wasn't just flat out terribly made and written like those movies. And, so, I'm able to enjoy it because I take it for what it is - an imperfect story told in an imperfect manner.

[Xath]

Oh I am not sure the show is objectively bad. It is just horrible for people who love the books and see something that is a very loose adaptation with very little respect for the source material. For me Perrin alone sealed the fate of the show. I have no idea how anyone is supposed to sympathize with him and Perrin and Nynaeve are probably the most loveable of the EF5.

It is objectively bad the pacing is horrific and the plot lines are completely nonsensical not to mention there is no payoff for the "chosen one"

- - - Updated - - -

An animated adaptation was and still is the way to go, in my opinion. No issues of characters aging out of their roles over years of production and more effort can be put into telling the entire story. I think Amazon's 8 episodes per season formula is definitely the biggest failure of the series aside from some really poor creative liberties being taken. 16 episodes at like an hour each would have made it much easier to tell the story more in-depth and given all of the characters more scope and the screen time for their much needed development.

24 episode animation double cour for 10 seasons sounds amazing but will never happen.

[Witchblade77]

I have no doubt of this, as I feel this is true of pretty much every form of story-telling entertainment. I'm reminded of the author on the train in an episode of Modern Family ... our brains are incapable of covering every detail so there will always be plotholes and plot-hammering and discrepancies, even when just adapting from one medium to the other. Watchman by Zack Snyder was nearly a panel-by-panel recreation of the comic and it was panned for being such, so we actually collectively desire medium translation to be less-than-faithful. Sometimes it works out better (like you mentioned with True Blood) and sometimes it falls flat on it's face.

This is why I feel so much criticism towards so many films is unwarranted. I know people have strong feelings about The Last Jedi and may consider it the worst movie ever ... but they clearly haven't watched Future War or Manos: The Hands of Fate. Or else they are prone to ridiculous hyperbole It wasn't a perfect film, but it wasn't just flat out terribly made and written like those movies. And, so, I'm able to enjoy it because I take it for what it is - an imperfect story told in an imperfect manner.

to be fair, the problem with Watchmen was not the faithful shot by shot recreation, I don't remember people hating that, I believe it was actualy praised for it, but rather the changes Snyder made that were very key and unfortunately showed how little he understood the story or the characters. the worst off being Ozymandias but pretty much all characters suffered in some way with the only 2 being the most faithful to the books being Rorschach and Comedian.

and again, to be fair, some of the issues with WoT especially in later episodes and most glaringly in a finale was due to covid interrupting filming and couple of other issues resulting in last minute rewrites that were NOT set up in prior episodes so they are very jarring. but... not everything can be contributed to it. and while yes, of course writing is hard and that's why I personaly am very willing to suspend my disbelief and not nitpick minor things... there were choices that I personaly was not the biggest fan of. like for example giving Perrin a wife only to fridge her in the same episode in a very crappy way. in case you are wondering, while the character did exist in the books, she was a lot more minor, never married Perrin and didn't die in that Trolloc raid.

[Gumble]

they are good, yes better then the show. but very old fashioned in the way they are written (aka they are long and highly description and move slowly, so if you are like me and have attention span issues, they may be difficult to get through, but its not because they are badly written).

That is heavily RJ's writing style. Its one of the reasons book fans are so critical of the show. RJ literally spelled out EVERY SCENE to the point where if you want to you can determine what everyone is wearing and what everything looks like to the nth degree. Some people get annoyed at that, but it is very much so his style.

The slowness of some of the books is made up for by the sheer horror and violence of parts of the story. It takes longer to get through the story, but it will make you care for the characters so much more than most other books. Without the descriptive nature of RJ, I think how the story unfolds for Rand would make it so hard to truly empathize with him.... instead you'll probably cry on the mountain with him.

I did

[Mazza]

in case you are wondering, while the character did exist in the books, she was a lot more minor, never married Perrin and didn't die in that Trolloc raid.

That might have something to do with Perrin not being considered old enough to marry at the start of the books. Another nonsensical change, purely so they could write some sex in early.

[VMSmith]

like for example giving Perrin a wife only to fridge her in the same episode in a very crappy way. in case you are wondering, while the character did exist in the books, she was a lot more minor, never married Perrin and didn't die in that Trolloc raid.

Perrin is definitely the least interesting character so far, simply because he does nothing more than look broody and sad. Since, clearly, he doesn't want to tell anyone what happened the character can't even play off the loss with other characters because he's constantly surrounded by people that he actively does not want to talk about it with.

RJ literally spelled out EVERY SCENE

That reminds me of my other quibble - I wasn't sure of anyone's name until the third episode and even now I'm not certain that the one guy is named Matt.

[Mazza]

Perrin is definitely the least interesting character so far, simply because he does nothing more than look broody and sad. Since, clearly, he doesn't want to tell anyone what happened the character can't even play off the loss with other characters because he's constantly surrounded by people that he actively does not want to talk about it with.

They literally didn't include one of the most important characters to Perrin's early development. No miracle his character is butchered.

[rhorle]

That might have something to do with Perrin not being considered old enough to marry at the start of the books. Another nonsensical change, purely so they could write some sex in early.

He was old enough as he is the same age as Rand. Egwene just got permission to braid her hair which meant the "courtship" between her and rand could officially take place now that she was deemed mature enough to marry. She was 17 though it can happen as early as 14. It all depends on when the circle deems the girls mature enough. Perrin is 19/20 at the start of the books.

It wasn't really a nonsensical change since Perrin himself even says he would likely have married/courted Laila if he stayed in the Two Rivers a few more years. It was also made to give him some character since you don't get much early on in the books and a lot of it is internal which doesn't work well for TV/Film. If you care you can read the "official" explanation at https://winteriscoming.net/2021/11/2...change-perrin/

- - - Updated - - -

They literally didn't include one of the most important characters to Perrin's early development.

He is in Season 2. https://winteriscoming.net/2022/02/2...time-season-2/

[Theangryone]

It remains to be seen if all of those people will hate-watch S2 or if the discussion actually dissuades non-fans from getting into it.

I'll probably see more youtube videos that comment about S2 then I will see any of actual S2. Even then, my expectations are so low that unless they said "Rape Judkins was fired and we fixed it", I can't see myself bothering with S2..... however commenting on how big a disappointment the show was after decades of being a WoT fan..... yea that part isn't going away anytime soon.

Nah I learned my lesson. They used the minutes watched from the first three episodes to get their name out there and solidify the second season. Going to pass on LoTR RoP also. After the Shanarra show no need to get bit a third time.

[Nymrohd]

That is heavily RJ's writing style. Its one of the reasons book fans are so critical of the show. RJ literally spelled out EVERY SCENE to the point where if you want to you can determine what everyone is wearing and what everything looks like to the nth degree. Some people get annoyed at that, but it is very much so his style.

The slowness of some of the books is made up for by the sheer horror and violence of parts of the story. It takes longer to get through the story, but it will make you care for the characters so much more than most other books. Without the descriptive nature of RJ, I think how the story unfolds for Rand would make it so hard to truly empathize with him.... instead you'll probably cry on the mountain with him.

I did

For instance Rand's madness is very well written. It's why I never understood how they could make the show unless they found a superb actor; so much of the story happens inside his head. E.g. those chapters where he has convinced himself he raped Min seem impossible for me to bring to the screen.

[Rennadrel]

to be fair, the problem with Watchmen was not the faithful shot by shot recreation, I don't remember people hating that, I believe it was actualy praised for it, but rather the changes Snyder made that were very key and unfortunately showed how little he understood the story or the characters. the worst off being Ozymandias but pretty much all characters suffered in some way with the only 2 being the most faithful to the books being Rorschach and Comedian.

and again, to be fair, some of the issues with WoT especially in later episodes and most glaringly in a finale was due to covid interrupting filming and couple of other issues resulting in last minute rewrites that were NOT set up in prior episodes so they are very jarring. but... not everything can be contributed to it. and while yes, of course writing is hard and that's why I personaly am very willing to suspend my disbelief and not nitpick minor things... there were choices that I personaly was not the biggest fan of. like for example giving Perrin a wife only to fridge her in the same episode in a very crappy way. in case you are wondering, while the character did exist in the books, she was a lot more minor, never married Perrin and didn't die in that Trolloc raid.

The fact that they replaced Rand's scenes at the Eye of the World fighting and killing off two of the fricking Forsaken with a girl power moment is one of the biggest fuck ups in TV history and is completely inexcusable. Especially considering both Nynaeve and Egwene can't even so much as channel at that point in the series. It completely breaks their character development, especially Nynaeve's struggles with getting around her block which I feel are a huge part of what makes her story interesting later on.