[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Rennadrel]

An animated adaptation was and still is the way to go, in my opinion. No issues of characters aging out of their roles over years of production and more effort can be put into telling the entire story. I think Amazon's 8 episodes per season formula is definitely the biggest failure of the series aside from some really poor creative liberties being taken. 16 episodes at like an hour each would have made it much easier to tell the story more in-depth and given all of the characters more scope and the screen time for their much needed development.

[Nymrohd]

Man I feel if they did a tabletop similar to Arkham Horror for the sanity system/male casters, you would have the base for a fun game from just that. A Baldur's Gate style RPG for PC would also probably be great fun.

I don't know, channelers during the book era are insanely powerful compared to non-channelers. From what the books suggest, channeling in the Trolloc Wars era was probably not nearly as advanced; they had some powerful Aes Sedai when it came to raw power but they still lacked all the finesse that people like Rand, Nynaeve, Elayne and Egwene added and spread among the modern channelers. I mean it seems clear that the Aes Sedai order is probably the least advanced compared to everyone else due to extreme adherence to tradition and probably due to the Black Ajah murdering exceptional channelers.

But a CRPG can make it work much better because it matters far less if non-channelers are less powerful if you can only recruit so many channelers for your group. So I agree that a CRPG would work well, either concurrently with the books or at a different point in time.

[bledgor]

I don't know, channelers during the book era are insanely powerful compared to non-channelers. From what the books suggest, channeling in the Trolloc Wars era was probably not nearly as advanced; they had some powerful Aes Sedai when it came to raw power but they still lacked all the finesse that people like Rand, Nynaeve, Elayne and Egwene added and spread among the modern channelers. I mean it seems clear that the Aes Sedai order is probably the least advanced compared to everyone else due to extreme adherence to tradition and probably due to the Black Ajah murdering exceptional channelers.

But a CRPG can make it work much better because it matters far less if non-channelers are less powerful if you can only recruit so many channelers for your group. So I agree that a CRPG would work well, either concurrently with the books or at a different point in time.

You could also have the personal power limits pretty low, and have the players need to depend on linking/angreal/sa'angreal/ter'angreal to overcome more numerous/powerful fools with a limitation per a day system (aka long rest) or run the chance of burning out.

[Witchblade77]

Honestly, I hadn't even thought of the possibility. The only time I've ever tried out the books that a show was based on was with True Blood, and I was fairly disappointed with the books. It may just be that whatever media I am first exposed to is the version that is "real" in my mind.

Right now I'm reading a Drizzt book, a very different version of Beauty and the Beast, a Star Trek novel, and some Roman and Greek history/mythology books so my reading plate is full I may consider the books at some point, though, if the story continues to be interesting.

your only experience is one of the rare cases where in some ways the show greatly improved on the books, or rather deviated in a way that still kept it very watchable. I say that as someone who used to be a big fan of the books (at least earlier books) but they are very much heavy on supernatural romance with all its tropes and limitations, while the show more or less did away with those.

I liked Wheel of time show. its far from perfect and even when taken on its own without comparing it to source material, it has issues. I HAVE been making my way through the books. they are good, yes better then the show. but very old fashioned in the way they are written (aka they are long and highly description and move slowly, so if you are like me and have attention span issues, they may be difficult to get through, but its not because they are badly written).

[VMSmith]

its far from perfect and even when taken on its own without comparing it to source material, it has issues.

I have no doubt of this, as I feel this is true of pretty much every form of story-telling entertainment. I'm reminded of the author on the train in an episode of Modern Family ... our brains are incapable of covering every detail so there will always be plotholes and plot-hammering and discrepancies, even when just adapting from one medium to the other. Watchman by Zack Snyder was nearly a panel-by-panel recreation of the comic and it was panned for being such, so we actually collectively desire medium translation to be less-than-faithful. Sometimes it works out better (like you mentioned with True Blood) and sometimes it falls flat on it's face.

This is why I feel so much criticism towards so many films is unwarranted. I know people have strong feelings about The Last Jedi and may consider it the worst movie ever ... but they clearly haven't watched Future War or Manos: The Hands of Fate. Or else they are prone to ridiculous hyperbole It wasn't a perfect film, but it wasn't just flat out terribly made and written like those movies. And, so, I'm able to enjoy it because I take it for what it is - an imperfect story told in an imperfect manner.

[Xath]

Oh I am not sure the show is objectively bad. It is just horrible for people who love the books and see something that is a very loose adaptation with very little respect for the source material. For me Perrin alone sealed the fate of the show. I have no idea how anyone is supposed to sympathize with him and Perrin and Nynaeve are probably the most loveable of the EF5.

It is objectively bad the pacing is horrific and the plot lines are completely nonsensical not to mention there is no payoff for the "chosen one"

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An animated adaptation was and still is the way to go, in my opinion. No issues of characters aging out of their roles over years of production and more effort can be put into telling the entire story. I think Amazon's 8 episodes per season formula is definitely the biggest failure of the series aside from some really poor creative liberties being taken. 16 episodes at like an hour each would have made it much easier to tell the story more in-depth and given all of the characters more scope and the screen time for their much needed development.

24 episode animation double cour for 10 seasons sounds amazing but will never happen.

[Witchblade77]

I have no doubt of this, as I feel this is true of pretty much every form of story-telling entertainment. I'm reminded of the author on the train in an episode of Modern Family ... our brains are incapable of covering every detail so there will always be plotholes and plot-hammering and discrepancies, even when just adapting from one medium to the other. Watchman by Zack Snyder was nearly a panel-by-panel recreation of the comic and it was panned for being such, so we actually collectively desire medium translation to be less-than-faithful. Sometimes it works out better (like you mentioned with True Blood) and sometimes it falls flat on it's face.

This is why I feel so much criticism towards so many films is unwarranted. I know people have strong feelings about The Last Jedi and may consider it the worst movie ever ... but they clearly haven't watched Future War or Manos: The Hands of Fate. Or else they are prone to ridiculous hyperbole It wasn't a perfect film, but it wasn't just flat out terribly made and written like those movies. And, so, I'm able to enjoy it because I take it for what it is - an imperfect story told in an imperfect manner.

to be fair, the problem with Watchmen was not the faithful shot by shot recreation, I don't remember people hating that, I believe it was actualy praised for it, but rather the changes Snyder made that were very key and unfortunately showed how little he understood the story or the characters. the worst off being Ozymandias but pretty much all characters suffered in some way with the only 2 being the most faithful to the books being Rorschach and Comedian.

and again, to be fair, some of the issues with WoT especially in later episodes and most glaringly in a finale was due to covid interrupting filming and couple of other issues resulting in last minute rewrites that were NOT set up in prior episodes so they are very jarring. but... not everything can be contributed to it. and while yes, of course writing is hard and that's why I personaly am very willing to suspend my disbelief and not nitpick minor things... there were choices that I personaly was not the biggest fan of. like for example giving Perrin a wife only to fridge her in the same episode in a very crappy way. in case you are wondering, while the character did exist in the books, she was a lot more minor, never married Perrin and didn't die in that Trolloc raid.

[Gumble]

they are good, yes better then the show. but very old fashioned in the way they are written (aka they are long and highly description and move slowly, so if you are like me and have attention span issues, they may be difficult to get through, but its not because they are badly written).

That is heavily RJ's writing style. Its one of the reasons book fans are so critical of the show. RJ literally spelled out EVERY SCENE to the point where if you want to you can determine what everyone is wearing and what everything looks like to the nth degree. Some people get annoyed at that, but it is very much so his style.

The slowness of some of the books is made up for by the sheer horror and violence of parts of the story. It takes longer to get through the story, but it will make you care for the characters so much more than most other books. Without the descriptive nature of RJ, I think how the story unfolds for Rand would make it so hard to truly empathize with him.... instead you'll probably cry on the mountain with him.

I did

[Mazza]

in case you are wondering, while the character did exist in the books, she was a lot more minor, never married Perrin and didn't die in that Trolloc raid.

That might have something to do with Perrin not being considered old enough to marry at the start of the books. Another nonsensical change, purely so they could write some sex in early.

[VMSmith]

like for example giving Perrin a wife only to fridge her in the same episode in a very crappy way. in case you are wondering, while the character did exist in the books, she was a lot more minor, never married Perrin and didn't die in that Trolloc raid.

Perrin is definitely the least interesting character so far, simply because he does nothing more than look broody and sad. Since, clearly, he doesn't want to tell anyone what happened the character can't even play off the loss with other characters because he's constantly surrounded by people that he actively does not want to talk about it with.

RJ literally spelled out EVERY SCENE

That reminds me of my other quibble - I wasn't sure of anyone's name until the third episode and even now I'm not certain that the one guy is named Matt.

[Mazza]

Perrin is definitely the least interesting character so far, simply because he does nothing more than look broody and sad. Since, clearly, he doesn't want to tell anyone what happened the character can't even play off the loss with other characters because he's constantly surrounded by people that he actively does not want to talk about it with.

They literally didn't include one of the most important characters to Perrin's early development. No miracle his character is butchered.

[rhorle]

That might have something to do with Perrin not being considered old enough to marry at the start of the books. Another nonsensical change, purely so they could write some sex in early.

He was old enough as he is the same age as Rand. Egwene just got permission to braid her hair which meant the "courtship" between her and rand could officially take place now that she was deemed mature enough to marry. She was 17 though it can happen as early as 14. It all depends on when the circle deems the girls mature enough. Perrin is 19/20 at the start of the books.

It wasn't really a nonsensical change since Perrin himself even says he would likely have married/courted Laila if he stayed in the Two Rivers a few more years. It was also made to give him some character since you don't get much early on in the books and a lot of it is internal which doesn't work well for TV/Film. If you care you can read the "official" explanation at https://winteriscoming.net/2021/11/2...change-perrin/

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They literally didn't include one of the most important characters to Perrin's early development.

He is in Season 2. https://winteriscoming.net/2022/02/2...time-season-2/

[Theangryone]

It remains to be seen if all of those people will hate-watch S2 or if the discussion actually dissuades non-fans from getting into it.

I'll probably see more youtube videos that comment about S2 then I will see any of actual S2. Even then, my expectations are so low that unless they said "Rape Judkins was fired and we fixed it", I can't see myself bothering with S2..... however commenting on how big a disappointment the show was after decades of being a WoT fan..... yea that part isn't going away anytime soon.

Nah I learned my lesson. They used the minutes watched from the first three episodes to get their name out there and solidify the second season. Going to pass on LoTR RoP also. After the Shanarra show no need to get bit a third time.

[Nymrohd]

That is heavily RJ's writing style. Its one of the reasons book fans are so critical of the show. RJ literally spelled out EVERY SCENE to the point where if you want to you can determine what everyone is wearing and what everything looks like to the nth degree. Some people get annoyed at that, but it is very much so his style.

The slowness of some of the books is made up for by the sheer horror and violence of parts of the story. It takes longer to get through the story, but it will make you care for the characters so much more than most other books. Without the descriptive nature of RJ, I think how the story unfolds for Rand would make it so hard to truly empathize with him.... instead you'll probably cry on the mountain with him.

I did

For instance Rand's madness is very well written. It's why I never understood how they could make the show unless they found a superb actor; so much of the story happens inside his head. E.g. those chapters where he has convinced himself he raped Min seem impossible for me to bring to the screen.

[Rennadrel]

to be fair, the problem with Watchmen was not the faithful shot by shot recreation, I don't remember people hating that, I believe it was actualy praised for it, but rather the changes Snyder made that were very key and unfortunately showed how little he understood the story or the characters. the worst off being Ozymandias but pretty much all characters suffered in some way with the only 2 being the most faithful to the books being Rorschach and Comedian.

and again, to be fair, some of the issues with WoT especially in later episodes and most glaringly in a finale was due to covid interrupting filming and couple of other issues resulting in last minute rewrites that were NOT set up in prior episodes so they are very jarring. but... not everything can be contributed to it. and while yes, of course writing is hard and that's why I personaly am very willing to suspend my disbelief and not nitpick minor things... there were choices that I personaly was not the biggest fan of. like for example giving Perrin a wife only to fridge her in the same episode in a very crappy way. in case you are wondering, while the character did exist in the books, she was a lot more minor, never married Perrin and didn't die in that Trolloc raid.

The fact that they replaced Rand's scenes at the Eye of the World fighting and killing off two of the fricking Forsaken with a girl power moment is one of the biggest fuck ups in TV history and is completely inexcusable. Especially considering both Nynaeve and Egwene can't even so much as channel at that point in the series. It completely breaks their character development, especially Nynaeve's struggles with getting around her block which I feel are a huge part of what makes her story interesting later on.

[Nymrohd]

The fact that they replaced Rand's scenes at the Eye of the World fighting and killing off two of the fricking Forsaken with a girl power moment is one of the biggest fuck ups in TV history and is completely inexcusable. Especially considering both Nynaeve and Egwene can't even so much as channel at that point in the series. It completely breaks their character development, especially Nynaeve's struggles with getting around her block which I feel are a huge part of what makes her story interesting later on.

Rand did not really kill either forsaken. Someshta (the Green Man) is the one who kills Balthamel. Aginor just lost the power struggle to control the Eye and burst from too much power (which makes little sense by later standards; Aginor was supposed to be the second strongest in raw output among the male Forsaken, on a level with Demandred. If untrained Rand could control it, he should as well but hey, Ta'veren).
The girls do nothing. They get every chance to show girl power in the next few books though, especially Nynaeve).

[Mazza]

He is in Season 2. https://winteriscoming.net/2022/02/2...time-season-2/

Nice for people that will watch that. It also means fuck all to the disservice they did to the Perrin's character in season 1.

[Xath]

He was old enough as he is the same age as Rand. Egwene just got permission to braid her hair which meant the "courtship" between her and rand could officially take place now that she was deemed mature enough to marry. She was 17 though it can happen as early as 14. It all depends on when the circle deems the girls mature enough. Perrin is 19/20 at the start of the books.

It wasn't really a nonsensical change since Perrin himself even says he would likely have married/courted Laila if he stayed in the Two Rivers a few more years. It was also made to give him some character since you don't get much early on in the books and a lot of it is internal which doesn't work well for TV/Film. If you care you can read the "official" explanation at https://winteriscoming.net/2021/11/2...change-perrin/

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He is in Season 2. https://winteriscoming.net/2022/02/2...time-season-2/

It was an incredibly idiotic and nonsensical change. Part of the growing done by the boys throughout the books involves dealing with various attempts to lead them in that manner. Rand sure as hell wasn't fucking egwene the attempts to got the series are vomit inducing and would be enough on their own to make it crap yet they are arguably thebleadt objectionable changes in rafe of time which says how fucking trash it is.

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For instance Rand's madness is very well written. It's why I never understood how they could make the show unless they found a superb actor; so much of the story happens inside his head. E.g. those chapters where he has convinced himself he raped Min seem impossible for me to bring to the screen.

You seem to think that Rand will actually be the focus point of this show. They've made it clear that Moiraine and the girls will be the focus. This isn't wheel of time it's rafe of time.

[Flurryfang]

The fact that they replaced Rand's scenes at the Eye of the World fighting and killing off two of the fricking Forsaken with a girl power moment is one of the biggest fuck ups in TV history and is completely inexcusable. Especially considering both Nynaeve and Egwene can't even so much as channel at that point in the series. It completely breaks their character development, especially Nynaeve's struggles with getting around her block which I feel are a huge part of what makes her story interesting later on.

The point, that most of the big character development points in the first book have been ignored or completly removed, makes the major reason why i have a hard time liking this show.

Cause it seems like most of season 1 are so focused on the world and the main plot, that they have forgotten to develop their characters at all. Nobody learns anything or has any problems, that they fight against. Its all about big moments and thats it. It makes the entire story(and show) feel very shallow and rushed.

I dread season 2 so much, cause i while i would love to see WoT done well as a show and want to give it is fair chance, it is just so clear that no matter how long they are given, the producers wants a very different show/story out of WoT and might aswell have it be a new story.


It is in these situations, where i think back to the early days of development on the Lord of the Rings movies. Peter Jackson went around to different studios with the idea and tried to sell the entire story on a 2-movie structure. This did not work and at some point, they were ready to do it 1, but luckily New Line Cinema said that if Lord of the Rings was to be made, it had to be 3 movies.
I think no matter how hard Peter Jackson and his team worked, it would have been hard to make Lord of the Rings good on 1-2 movies.

Its the same thing here with WoT. It is quite clear, that they are not ready to put 8-9 seasons into the story and follow the book structure, so they are gonna push the story ahead at break-neak pace, so that they might be able to put an ending on the story after 3-5 seasons. Its a brave thought, but it will just always lack something and have a missing link.

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Oh its so much worse than that.... S2 is supposed to cover nearly all of books 2 and 3. The great hunt will be 4-5 episodes. Just imagine.


As for the first season. I think if they had 10 episodes (and an ounce of respect for the story) someone else could have done it well. Rafe cannot do it, but someone with talent could have.

Here is a episode summary I literally just made thinking of how you could easily split the book up, have important episodes where each one ends in a cliffhanger or action "event". This is so blatantly easy that their inability to do this is astounding.

1- Should have given us a 10 minute prologue where we meet LT and Ish. Then the rest of the episode should have been Winternight. Use episode 1 to introduce us to all the characters, actually make us LIKE Emond's Field and the people in it instead of making it a craphole full of awful people. End on the farm, right as the door gets broken in by trollocs.

2- Rand's travel through the woods all the way to crossing the Taren. Give time for Moraine's speech and actually feel the real leavetakings of the kids (should have really been 16-18 year old actors who could grow into these parts) as they are forced to leave their home. Finish on Moraine sinking the ferry.

3- 10 minutes of traveling and Lan/Moraine teaching. The rest Baerlon. Cliffhanger on them leaving and the Whitecloaks confronting them.

4- Shadar Logoth and the battle prior to it. Finish on the boys and Thom getting onto the ship and Perrin and his horse going into the water.

5- Elyas, wolves, Bayle. Give time for the scenes with Nynaeve and Lan to breath (let us actually start liking them). Let us see the other kids connecting with parts of the world that open it up. End with Fade in Whitebridge and meeting the tinkers for Perrin and Egwene.

6- Let Rand/Mat travel, less made up barmaid Darkfriend and more tenseness between them because of Mat's dagger. Tinkers into ravens for Perrin. End with Rand calling lightning to escape Gode and Whitecloaks spotting Perrin/Egwene under that rock.

7- Rand/Mat get to Caemlyn, meet Loial, Rand goes to see Logan being brought in. Perrin/Egwene deal with Whitecloaks. End of episode Rand falls over wall and Perrin/Egwene rescued.

8- Rand's adventures with the royals that tells us alot about him. Moraine and company get to Caemlyn. Travel the ways. End with escaping Machin Shin and arriving in Shienar.

9- Fal Dara and the journey into the Blight. Let this episode explain more about Lan and his past. Spend time at Malchier and really make us care about Lan/Nynaeve and not make him into someone that would sleep with her and still brush her off. Have the rush through the Blight and end with them meeting the Green Man.

10- Green Man brings them to the Eye, explains more about the world to help with world building. Then have the fight with the Forsaken, the battle at Tarwin's Gap, and RAND actually throwing the power against the trollocs. End with them all riding back through fresh growth of spring to Fal Dara.




Also, I really wish they would not have tried to base the show around Moraine. I get the concept of getting a known actor to try to entice people to watch the show, but they failed pretty hard in that because

A) Moraine isn't in alot of the story, which means they need to force massive changes and cut characters who matter more (Verin) just to use the actress they paid for
B) It detracts from our ability to see the story as the EF5's story, which it IS, because we have to see it from the "big name actress" 's POV.
C) She isn't that well known, or that good of an actor, so I doubt anyone bothered to tune in (or stay tuned in) due to her.

The story should have focused on the Emond's Fielders.

If they did this, while weaving in that the one power is really mysterious and invisible, Ishamael being crazy and that being the dragon is not a good thing, and then you have a good scene for a good show.

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I have to say for so many people who seem to think the show is trash, its generating quite the amount of discussion. I have a feeling the producers would be happy people are still talking about it months after release.

You could say the same about game of thrones, so not sure if it is a good indicator

I think the discussion happens right now, because the fans of the book are still not quite sure if the show should be given a chance with season 2. It is always hard to decide on a show after a single season, but the gut feeling still persist.

I would though not be surprised, that if the 2nd season just keeps going the same route as the first, that the discussion will die down quite a bit, because at that point, there is not really much to say.

[Mazza]

I think the discussion happens right now, because the fans of the book are still not quite sure if the show should be given a chance with season 2. It is always hard to decide on a show after a single season, but the gut feeling still persist.

I would though not be surprised, that if the 2nd season just keeps going the same route as the first, that the discussion will die down quite a bit, because at that point, there is not really much to say.

Personally, I think the viewing numbers for season 2 will be a fraction of what season 1 was. I know I am not giving it a watch after season 1 and I really don't think I am alone in that.