[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Hobbidaggy]

Nobody posted when I posted about new cast members for House of the Dragon, either. Guess nobody gives a shit about that one because its also a giant turd

Or nobody really cares about commenting on new cast members? Not all news needs 100 comments praising that they have been told.

I normally avoid these threads because the people in them normally go on and whine about how “bad” shows are and I like to make my own opinion on them not be told it’s bad and how I should hate it

[Ragedaug]

There's nothing remotely compelling or even interesting about this shit show.

This is a good summary for me as well. When I finished reading book 1, I couldn't wait to pick up book 2, to see what was going to happen. I ended up pushing myself to watch the first full season, but don't care at all about the characters, and couldn't care less what any of them do, or what happens to them. I will not be watching season 2 unless I hear a bunch of scuttlebutt on the street talking about how amazing the show is and how they fixed 'all the things' that were wrong from season 1.

[Orby]

I try to be positive about the show. Cos I do think the show isnt the worst thing ever as far as fantasy book adaptions go (Sword of Shannara I am looking at you), I do think the stuff it does well it does do really well. Just sad the stuff I do not like about the show overshadows the stuff I like, and I just think its frustrating at times. So my reaction fo WoT isn't 'hate' just 'frustration' :P

[Triceron]

Sadly, I know how these threads work. Look at how this one kicked off again from a guy posting how nobody cares about new cast members being announced.

Well he's not exactly wrong either.

Were there any notable celebrities announced for HotD S2? If not I could see why it doesn't get the buzz you are looking for.

[Xath]

I'll say this.
EVERYONE would make sense to not be homogenized. Yes, even Eamon's Field.
The Third Age nations are made up of refugees that survived the war and then the Breaking. The Second Age cultures were likely already multicultural; they had access to extreme ease of travel and there were global authorities and organizations. The idea that the people who survived what would be the equivalent of a global nuclear civil war would somehow coalesce into neatly defined racial groups or that after a few thousand years diversity would have led to a series of ethnostates is kind of ludicrous. I do not fault Jordan for this; he was not an anthropologist and if you want a fantasy series that deal with cultural evolution over a long timeline they are out there (e.g. Malazan Books of the Fallen). The only group were a lack of racial diversity would have made sense would be the Aiel because they originate from a caste based society that was segregated in the previous age and remained so for the Third age.
You can have societies be diverse in their make up AND insular at the same time, especially given that the population numbers are fairly low in the main continent. Few people ever traveled to Rand's village and everyone knew each other so they could be shown as insular while being diverse just fine. Heck the entire plot point there is that Rand always was different but that can be explained easily in that his father returned from abroad and that Rand looks nothing like him so there would obviously have been gossip about it. And I prefer if they escape the fantasy trap of transplanting real world cultures (or worse, their stereotypes) into fantasy worlds; Altarra in the books very much felt like a caricature of white people's perception of Latinx people. So yeah, diversity should not have been a problem except maybe with the Aiel. You absolutely can make cultures look homogeneous by focusing on dress and speech patterns.

Literally not true thousands of years of near isolation post breaking.

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Oh great, someone found a woman in a leadership position to bring up in every post. I was getting worried, that the show might maybe suck for a diffrent reason than "evil and incompetent woman with a genius masterplan is ruining everything on purpose, but will get fired ANY second now!".


Read the first and second book in between Season 1 and 2. I think I will be REALLY confused, when season 2 starts, because I have the book version fresh in my head now :>

Nah it sucks because of Rafe thinking he is actually worthy of not just adjusting Jordan's work but implementing his own idiotic ideas. Now whoever hired him after reading his original first episode outline is an absolute idiot but it sucks because of Rafe.

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Religion and culture go hand in hand, there are plenty of people in WOT who share the beliefs but aren't white cloaks and instead turn a blind eye to what they do or help but not join.

they have there own military culture based around there religion and the show makes that distinct at a glance.

They are basically the KKK with a thicker veneer on top of their awfulness. I'm also specifically talking about the majority of cultures which are incredibly insular and near isolated until the dragon starts breaking everything open. The White Cloaks by hatred cross country lines the Aes Sedai by Power and the Seanchan by conquest over innumerable years. Those are the 3 groups that aren't isolated prior to the events of the series. Half of the rest of the countries are in either open war or a cold war between each other not exactly much chance of commingling.

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Not to put too fine a point on it, but religion is like...an integral part of culture. It's really difficult to try to define where religion and culture aren't intertwined. So...they can be both a religious group and defined culture apart from the cultures around them. This is also true of other extremist groups. While they develop out of a parent culture, and in many cases are still part of that culture, they operate more like subculture than anything else.

Clothing and decoration and the like can absolutely be used to differentiate culture beyond skin and hair color.

Yes and the white cloaks, aes sedai, and seanchan are the ones that would make sense to be non homogenous that said I don't think hatred creates a culture personally if anything they are much more similar to the kkk and other hate groups.

[Rennadrel]

My biggest problem with it.


I could have dealt with actors that didn't match the descriptions in the books if they were the best for the job. They weren't good actors or the best for the job. Rafe admitted he picked them for diversity, not for talent.

I could have dealt with cutting out sections of the story to make it fit for TV, but they should have given it at least 10-12 episodes. 10 could have worked, but 12 would have been better. They had the money and people would happily have watched 12. As much as I would have loved to see Rand's adventures in Caemlyn, I get why that could be cut out, but given they added Tar Valon in, Logain nonsense, and a story about a warder that only made Lan less impressive, I'm not sure what that bought them.

The thing I could not deal with was them rewriting the story to suit their own ideas. They didn't simply condence the story, they made their own fan fiction of what they thought should have happened with characters that do not match up to the ones in the books. Because of this, the deviation from the books will only get wider and the story will become totally whatever Rafe makes up, just with names you recognize from the books.

None of the story from this point makes any sense, and will keep making less and less sense, because they didn't take the subject matter seriously. They used a great story to try to make themselves look good, and it failed.

The thing is that Prime Studios has been prioritizing diversity over telling an existing story properly for a while.

In Invincible, they made the main characters girlfriend black and a social justice advocate, which she isn't in the comics.

In The Boys comics, Stormfront is a man, and he doesn't have a sexual relationship with Homelander. Yet they made Stormfront a woman for some nonsensical reason.

Those are the two most prominent ones that I am aware of. Frankly, some shows that have a diverse cast are perfectly fine, I loved The Expanse because the characters were diverse at a more than skin deep level. They keep using it as a shield to deflect from shitty creators making shitty choices when it comes to adaptations. You can do whatever you want with original works, but every successful show or film has to stand on its own merit by having good writing, whether it is original or an adaptation. If you aren't going to remain faithful to someone else's work, get the hell out of the way and let someone who will do it.

[Fabinas]

The thing is that Prime Studios has been prioritizing diversity over telling an existing story properly for a while.

In Invincible, they made the main characters girlfriend black and a social justice advocate, which she isn't in the comics.

In The Boys comics, Stormfront is a man, and he doesn't have a sexual relationship with Homelander. Yet they made Stormfront a woman for some nonsensical reason.

Those are the two most prominent ones that I am aware of. Frankly, some shows that have a diverse cast are perfectly fine, I loved The Expanse because the characters were diverse at a more than skin deep level. They keep using it as a shield to deflect from shitty creators making shitty choices when it comes to adaptations. You can do whatever you want with original works, but every successful show or film has to stand on its own merit by having good writing, whether it is original or an adaptation. If you aren't going to remain faithful to someone else's work, get the hell out of the way and let someone who will do it.

I think making Stormfront a woman in relationship with Homelander was supposed to be a reminder that conservatism and fascism/nazism are sleeping in the same bed, if you catch my drift.

It also helps the series Homelander getting another "betrayal" from a female to facilitate his personal psychological downfall and guide him to an even more terrifying figure, even publicly.

[Arikara]

And you might have a valid point, if, you know, Time wasn't a thing.

The Breaking of the World happened so long ago even Aes-sedai scholars (who can live to be hundreds of years old and have access to probably the most complete collection of records and info regarding that time period) barely even get fragments of what actually happened correctly. If I read the timeline right, it's been roughly 3500 years since the Breaking. Even conservatively marking a generation as 20 years, that's 175 generations that have passed since the world broke and new empires rose and fell. The people of Eamon's Field didn't even know they were living in the remains of the once great nation of Manetheren because the events were so old they had passed out of local living memory. Even more recently, you can see that they are so efficiently isolated their own Queen had basically forgotten they exist for all practical purposes.

When you combine that with the rather insular nature of countries / nations in medieval times, there may not be as much mixing and cosmopolitanism within the nations as you might imagine. Especially when the recent history of the setting tells us that, aside from the Boarderlands, it's basically been kingdom's at each other's throats and uncomfortable alliances across the entire continent for generations. Under those kind of circumstances, the only people really moving between countries are merchants and war refugees. Entire generations of serfs and peasants would have stayed in a single location, likely never travelling farther than the next town over unless moved by great need. While we may take it for granted now, ease of movement for "normal" people was simply not a thing in those kinds of times.

The Breaking lasted a long time and is repeatedly described as difficult to track, but counting from when someone recorded that it officially ended should be precisely 2997 years between then and the Eye of the World.

I'll add also that the guy you were replying to was coming up with nonsensical theories based only on "but it would totally make sense based on my unconfirmed theory you guys" which go directly counter to Jordan's own descriptions and intentions. Which is the part that matters.

[Surfd]

Those are the two most prominent ones that I am aware of. Frankly, some shows that have a diverse cast are perfectly fine, I loved The Expanse because the characters were diverse at a more than skin deep level.

Just curious, but how do you figure? I mean, "diversity" in the Expanse is basically non existent in terms of the context most people use the term at the moment. Nobody in the Expanse is defined by their racial characteristics, since it's a story where the dividing lines are almost entirely about "Earth people" vs "Mars people" vs "Belt Station People". In the expanse, being a Martian or an Earther or a Belter is far more important than being Asian or Black or White.

Aside from a very small handful of characters, such as Avasarala, almost none of the cast of Expanse are intrinsically defined by their racial background, and even in the cases of someone like Avasarala, her ethnicity is never really presented as an important facet of her character.

[Gumble]

I think making Stormfront a woman in relationship with Homelander was supposed to be a reminder that conservatism and fascism/nazism are sleeping in the same bed, if you catch my drift.

This simply isn't true. Neither liberalism nor conservatism has any relation to fascism/nazism, left and right can be both authoritarian or anarchist. Each side tends to believe that the other is authoritarian all of the time due to feeling persecuted WHEN the "other side" gets all up with authority.

In America, the Right was VERY authoritarian in the 1980s and in the 2000s. They have drifted more towards a much more anarchistic side of conservatism. The Left was very anarchistic in the 80s-90s and has gotten more and more authoritarian from the mid 2000s through today.

If you look back through history, each side goes through periods like that. Just remember, the Nazi's were the SOCIALIST party.

It also helps the series Homelander getting another "betrayal" from a female to facilitate his personal psychological downfall and guide him to an even more terrifying figure, even publicly.

This makes alot more sense.

[eschatological]

Just remember, the Nazi's were the SOCIALIST party.

This is a trope as old as time. The Nazis were decidedly right wing and fascist despite having the word "socialist" in their party name. Some of the worst dictatorships in the world have had supposedly "liberal democracy" terms in their titles, it's merely propaganda. No one questions whether the Democratic Republic of the Congo was a right wing authoritarian dictatorship because they have the word "democratic" in their name.

In the historical sense, there have been authoritarian governments who have supposedly espoused leftwing ideologies, most famously the USSR. But they don't follow the tenets of the leftwing ideologies - they simply say they adopt them. The USSR was communist in name only, but was really just a kleptocratic, oligarchic dictatorship. The same is true of "rightwing" ideologies, especially small government libertarianism. In ideology, they are very much anti-authoritarian. But supposed libertarians, in practice, have been very autocratic fascists in real life. You don't have to look further than Texas today.

As for Stormfront herself, I think Fabinas has it right, but it's about the specific brand of "American conservatism." The name Homelander (both in the comic and the show) is a deliberate nod not only to the Nazi-esque "Motherland" propaganda and various nationalist ideologies, but a direct reference to the Department of Homeland Security, a department created by GWB shortly after 9/11, which implemented the Patriot Act. Which of course, involved authoritarian elements of wiretapping U.S. civilians secretly in the name of "national security," extraordinary renditions, etc, etc. There's a deliberate moment in season 1 where Homelander is standing at the plane wreckage and almost word-for-word repeats what GWB said on the ruins of the World Trade Center: the speech about finding out who did this, and how they'll know our wrath.

I think Stormfront being a woman is deliberately trying to subvert expectations, specifically for non-comic people. Starlight is the "hero" of this show, and when SF first shows up, you see them somewhat aligning as Stormfront rants about not having pockets and how you can practically see up Starlight's uterus because branding requires her to wear a costume which sexualizes her. She also comes off as somewhat feminist in some of the interviews she does, and "says it like it is." For those not familiar with the comic (or the real life reference that the name Stormfront is), they're drawn into liking her initially, only to be shown she's a virulent racist and a literal Nazi from WW2.

[Gumble]

This is a trope as old as time. The Nazis were decidedly right wing and fascist despite having the word "socialist" in their party name.

Thank you for explaining my point so well. If you are on the left, the Nazis look like the right to you, and vice versa. You can't see beyong your political ideology. Alot of folks on the right do this too, but thank you for demonstrating it so well.

As for whether or not the Nazis were right or left.... you have to go back and look at what they stood for and what they did. There is no argument that they were MASSIVE authoritarians, and because of that, people on either side of the left/right spectrum associate them with "those other guys, because surely that isn't US!..... right? We couldn't be the bad guys..... right?"

But, if you look into it, they were actually a mixed party that had a bit of conservative, and alot of progressive in them.

They did believe in citizenship, strong borders, strong military, a strong work ethic, physical fitness requirements, strict religious allowances.

However, they also believed the government should provide for every citizen so that no one goes hungry, equal rights, no war profitting, nationalization of businesses, profit-sharing for workers, social security for old people, focus on building a strong middle class, public land protection, free high quality public education, government approved press, and publicly funded healthcare.


So to say that they were Right wing.......


There is quite a bit of progressive ideology in the Nazi party positions and the things they did in Germany. I wouldn't call them a progressive party, but outside of their focus on the military, which was likely in large part due to how Germany was faring post WW1, most of their positions were decidedly Left Wing Authoritarian.


They did absolutely horrible things, and believed themselves righteous and good while doing them, which is why Stormfront just felt off to me. She works as a woman vs the comics, but her attitude seems like she is happy doing horrible things that she knows are horrible. The Nazis were scary because they thought they were doing what was right.

Beware people who do horrible things because they feel right and justified.





And as for WoT. Rafe and the writers fit this description quite well. They think they are right while destroying something people loved for decades. They've been convinced that they are the "good people" and that any horror they visit on everyone else is justified because their ideology tells them so.

Maybe at some point they'll have the "wait are we the baddies?" moment.

[eschatological]

However, they also believed the government should provide for every citizen so that no one goes hungry, equal rights, no war profitting, nationalization of businesses, profit-sharing for workers, social security for old people, focus on building a strong middle class, public land protection, free high quality public education, government approved press, and publicly funded healthcare.

They believed in those things for people of the Aryan race. Not for everyone. They were strict supremacists and nationalists based on that, which is a very right wing philosophy. They wanted to create a utopia for a superior race. Believe it or not, that's not left wing. It is the definition of fascist. Franco made the trains run on time in Spain, that doesn't mean he was left wing supporting public transportation.

[Gumble]

They believed in those things for people of the Aryan race. Not for everyone. They were strict supremacists and nationalists based on that, which is a very right wing philosophy. They wanted to create a utopia for a superior race. Believe it or not, that's not left wing. It is the definition of fascist. Franco made the trains run on time in Spain, that doesn't mean he was left wing supporting public transportation.

Again, thanks for proving my point.

Racism is not left wing or right wing, both sides share in it equally and just express it in slightly different ways. Saying "fascist" doesn't equate to "right wing". Both the left and right can be fascist quite often when it suits them. Fascist is just a way of saying "I want the government to enforce my will". That has no bearing on left/right.

When you say "believe it or not, that's not left wing", I can hear a guy on the right saying the exact same thing about his political ideology. Some of the most racist people I've ever met have been liberal democrats who wanted to treat me like a pet because they didn't think I could do for myself.

You want to believe that they were bad, therefore "not you", and to a degree you are partly right. But you are also alot wrong.

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Also, since this conversation has nothing to do with WoT, we should probably stop having it.

[bledgor]

Also, since this conversation has nothing to do with WoT, we should probably stop having it.

Naw its fine when mods want to post off topic politics, but you might want to stop responding.

Honestly the only reason I watched the first season was morbid curiosity and Brandon Sanderson mentioning that he gave them advice. Later I learned they ignored his advice, so it is what it is. Unless my buddies want to watch it and mock it, think I will pass on season 2+.

[Nymrohd]

You want to believe that they were bad, therefore "not you", and to a degree you are partly right. But you are also alot wrong.

The Nazi party did not move to nationalize industry, instead they reversed previous nationalizations with a slew of privatizations to favored party supporters. That in and of itself is enough to dispel the idea that they were in any way socialists since the crux of socialism is that capital should be under control of the state as representatives of the people. Their economic policy of autarky and the significant reduction of foreign trade in both directions also suggests that in no way was the Nazi state capitalist or mercantilist (given they did not seek to build a surplus in the trade balance). You will often see it argued that fascism is an economic system of its own.
Heck Mussolini from who the ethnosocialist term originated from also did not try to control capital. In fact he controlled LABOUR by enforcing unions whose leadership was state appointed.
On a social level you cannot compare National Socialists with the Communist and Socialist movement because the former alter the crucial historical narrative of the Left; they deny the importance of the Class struggle and fully substitute it with the Struggle of Nations (perceived as ethnically homogeneous populations)

And on the WoT issue; the main point I was making is that what was important to the narrative was that the people of Eamon's Field were INSULAR. A population can be insular and still have diversity, especially when that population is so small that everyone can identify someone foreign to the area readily. Granted, this is not how Jordan described things but that can simply be a matter of different times and different perception of what a state can be. The show can present populations as culturally homogeneous without racial restrictions by focusing on attire, architecture, language.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

In America, the Right was VERY authoritarian in the 1980s and in the 2000s. They have drifted more towards a much more anarchistic side of conservatism. The Left was very anarchistic in the 80s-90s and has gotten more and more authoritarian from the mid 2000s through today.

As a non American looking at what’s going on in America this is just so incredibly delusional, lol.

The side that ones to lock up/deny asylum seekers against there own laws, ban books and history lessons from schools, support and fund the largest prison system in the world, and ban all kinds of alternative life styles and displays is getting less authoritarian?

Come on man.

[bledgor]

And on the WoT issue; the main point I was making is that what was important to the narrative was that the people of Eamon's Field were INSULAR. A population can be insular and still have diversity, especially when that population is so small that everyone can identify someone foreign to the area readily. Granted, this is not how Jordan described things but that can simply be a matter of different times and different perception of what a state can be. The show can present populations as culturally homogeneous without racial restrictions by focusing on attire, architecture, language.

The issue is time, when you have thousands of years of isolation, even things like race get very insular/singular, homogenized. This isn't even a small trade hub you could try to strong arm into being very diverse, this is simple facts.

When a population of a few hundred are isolated they will trend towards homogenization over time, and we know they had A LOT of time.

As a non American looking at what’s going on in America this is just so incredibly delusional, lol.

The side that ones to lock up/deny asylum seekers against there own laws, ban books and history lessons from schools, support and fund the largest prison system in the world, and ban all kinds of alternative life styles and displays is getting less authoritarian?

Come on man.

It is both sides mate, they both have trended towards deeply authoritarian sadly. Not to mention the left becoming simps for corporations and war mongering, didn't see that one coming so quickly, but 2016 made every a bit crazy.

Also take the "ban books" with a grain of salt, half the time by ban they mean the teachers or librarians removed it from lesson plans/didn't stock it, which is the prerogative of said teacher/librarian. Also some of the books I have seen banned feature literal pornography so.

[Nymrohd]

The issue is time, when you have thousands of years of isolation, even things like race get very insular/singular, homogenized. This isn't even a small trade hub you could try to strong arm into being very diverse, this is simple facts.

When a population of a few hundred are isolated they will trend towards homogenization over time, and we know they had A LOT of time.

Again though, does this change alter the narrative? From what I gather they have vastly worse takes here. Why is the focus on diversity? They could do representation and STILL do the story justice. The fact that they failed to do the story justice is not really because of the diversity, it's because of so many other issues.

[bledgor]

Again though, does this change alter the narrative? From what I gather they have vastly worse takes here. Why is the focus on diversity? They could do representation and STILL do the story justice. The fact that they failed to do the story justice is not really because of the diversity, it's because of so many other issues.

It is a needless change that alters the world, one of the overriding themes of the book is people need to come together, and the world has grown very apart. Even the queen of the region doesn't know about the town it is so isolated. It also makes it hard for me to believe if this "isolated for thousands of years" village looks like a random sample of people from New York. It adds little to nothing, and actively damages the over arching themes and tones of the story. My question is why make the change? There is a fuck ton of diversity in WoT, it just isn't in Emond's Field.

Not to mention one of the overtures of the start of the story is how much Rand feels like an outsider because he has red hair, if everyone is diverse, it takes away that aspect too.