1. #3741
    Their version of a strong woman making difficult choices is just no! It's so bad. Did you see the Moiraine parting with Lan, this is not the Moiraine of the books, it's a far less likeable Moiraine.

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    The messaging is strong in this one.

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    Did you see Nynaeve's first trial ? THe father who is supposed to be protecting the family, like all other men in this show, is always rescued or in need of the woman for defense. Off course in the book, gender roles aren't swapped at all, Wheel of Time isn't a world where women are men and men are women - this seems to be either an erroneous interpretation or part of the intentional fanfic version of the show writers and possibly runners.

    I kept thinking to myself hang on a sec, shouldn't the man be the one with a two rivers long bow.. women don't have the strength to pull one, but Nynaeve's mother does? Even if the Ter'angreal world isn't exactly real, it's a realistic version of what the past could have been. And off course the dad dies first, and the mum keeps fighting till she goes out. And yes, Jordan's version of Nynaeve's first trial wasn't good enough either, it also had to be "fixed" substituted for this darker , all female empowering version that tells the story how it should be and fixes all of his mistakes. Yes we get it, it's the girls' turn, and men suck.

    But off course, a man cannot be stronger than a woman even with twice the muscle mass and density - I'm sure audiences love unrealistic and unnatural thigns with no explanation..

    Jordan has women powerful in this story, the Aes Sedai and wielding the one power is far more powerful, and the world circumstances shows that women are at the top in the world order, and I'm fine with that, he however did not change gender norms for the rest of his population, he doens't have women doing feats not phsyically possible, at least normal women, women that do have a lore reason why they can - it's called the one power.

    The story is a beautifully imagined fantasy, that doesn't seek to degrade men, and role reveres in anyway, it shows different state of the world with political power, a world order that have magicains at the top who only females can safely be..

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    I wonder, the whole "grooming of Nynaeve by Liandrin, are they going to make Nynaeve a red - because she don't need no man, and it's perceived as a STRONG role? I wonder, is being a healer considered weak and feminine? I don't know, these people are crazy enough to do things like that because they are so male power obsessed, and their religion wants to make women like those men.

    The way they are writing Nynaeve too, it's looking like, she should have been the dragon instead of Rand. All I see is that they think the Nynaeve of the books is too trivial and boring, too petty, always pulling her braid, more like a silly girl than a noble powerful woman that is equal to or even greater than the Dragon.

    The way Nynaeve is written in the show works for the show, Robert Jordan's Nynaeve would not work in this retelling. But then, in this reteling Nynaeve is the main character, I'm watching it, I'm feeling like it's a Moiraine and Nynaeve show.

    I'm 20 mins into the show now. The last trial of Nynaeve was pretty good though or bad, however you look at it, I was convinced it was the telling of the story.

    Re-telling the story of Nynaeve as a red, would be amusing to watch. And the implication that being a healer is too weak.
    Last edited by Mace; 2023-09-02 at 05:16 PM.

  2. #3742
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    But off course, a man cannot be stronger than a woman even with twice the muscle mass and density - I'm sure audiences love unrealistic and unnatural thigns with no explanation.
    the book does the same thing in her first trial with Nynaeve over powering a male forsaken and making him run from her even though male channellers and the forsaken are suppose to be stronger then every one else and she’s not even suppose to be able to channel in the arch’s which I believe is also never explained.

    Making a mountain out of a mole hill because it’s a bow and not the power doing the one upping seems silly.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  3. #3743
    Over 9000! ringpriest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    I love how the gay relationships keep coming up, one of Alanna's warders becomes one because he falls in love with another male warder, I think htis is how you do it, rather than turn Siuan Sanche into Moiraines sexual partner
    That relationship is actually canonical, although, as with a great many details, Jordan left it very low-key, because it's not what his story was about. (I'm not sure what the showrunner's story is about, and I'm skeptical that they do, either, which is perhaps the heart of the difficulty.)

    Anyway, here's fansite (for the books) that goes into a lot of detail on "pillow-friends":
    http://13depository.blogspot.com/200...d-to-know.html
    "For the present this country is headed in directions which can only carry ruin to it and will create a situation here dangerous to world peace. With few exceptions, the men who are running this Government are of a mentality that you and I cannot understand. Some of them are psychopathic cases and would ordinarily be receiving treatment somewhere. Others are exalted and in a frame of mind that knows no reason."
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  4. #3744
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    the book does the same thing in her first trial with Nynaeve over powering a male forsaken and making him run from her even though male channellers and the forsaken are suppose to be stronger then every one else and she’s not even suppose to be able to channel in the arch’s which I believe is also never explained.

    Making a mountain out of a mole hill because it’s a bow and not the power doing the one upping seems silly.
    You have point, the arches aren't supposed to be real, however, at least in Jordan's version, it's centred around Nyanaeve, and hse is some how able to use the power, in rthe arches, or isn't thought to be possible. HEre the fantasy world rules account for the ability beacuse it's the one power, and women can use it, and nynaeeve is strong enough, we also don't know enough about the forsaken or about this alternate relaity, because it seems to test the individual, therefore the individual not perfoming according regulrar rules, even the universes own additional rules, is explainalble there.

    it's a totally different thing o then have Nynaeve's mother wielding a two riivers long bow and the father is the one that's helppless (as the show runners see it in thier gender role reversal), it'st he father that hidest he child and the mother protects with the bow, the father lashes out and gets quickly killed beccause he is helpless and incompenet, which matches the portrayal of men throughout the show and is another instance demonstrated here.

    It also matches the ideolgoy or a very particular minortiy group of people that seem to doeminate hoollywood and thes tuff it writes with the constant gender swapping, which was cool when it was once in a while, but totally a messaging thign when every show has it.

    still hollywood is a big place, but when you know who runs Amazon studios..Sharkis woman and what her bleiefs are, when you know the showrunners of the show and the writing team that has butchered.. i mean altered this man's work, that it is doing this is no surprise off course.

    this is no longer about being woke, it never was, Wheel of Time was plenty woke, this is about their socio political mandate , they've chopped up this man's work, and polarised it further to their ultra feminist viewpoints, adn this is what we are getting, ultra feminist version of wheel of time. And that was just another instance that cuahgt my eye, and I chose to share it.

    It is not a mole hill, i'ts the entire show.

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    Good for you if that's what you like or want, ti's obviously what the show runners like and want, , and let's not kid ourselves that it is there. It is and quite plain for us all to see, it's not making a mountain out of this at all, this is what the show has altered most obviously and the messaging is all over.

    Now some people are believers of that messaging, and they may be satisfied with this or even l ike the alterations, while i am not judging the alteratioins in that post, I think it is nonsense and far worse than the book's version.

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    CRINGE - those who do not swear the oaths, would have the oaths sworn for them 25mins 10 secs in roughly [prime times] - that's so lame, it doesn't sound or feel threatening in the slightest, the Senachan look and feel like a joke. I never got this impression in the book.

    Perhaps the writers and actors feel that the set and costumes or gratuitous violence of the earlier fight scene are enough.

    No effort for an accent either, the Seanchan drawl - at least it wasn't pronounced enough for me to pick up.

    I like the long fingernails though Suroth has,

    interesting to show Ishamael alongside her

    Also killing Uno - obviously we know this show isn't going to last long enough to usee his actual story arc. "All will be made to bow" -

    I do like the fact that I don't know who they're going to get rid off, and what they're going to change either, that's most of my watching experience see.

    But I must admit it's very hard to watch this show for it's own merit without comparing it ot the books that just feel so much better. I woudl have hoped the show would bring out hte books in an even better light, not radically alter it as a voice piece for American social ulltra fem activists and fantasies of what girl power should look like. What a waste. T his had no chance of competing with Game of Thrones, whereas the books are a better story than game of thrones.

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    Also most of the sets are disappointing, Cairhien, Tar Valon - sigh, look so generic - where is the grandness of that stage? Ogier built cities and buildings?

    Not enough money I guess.

  5. #3745
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    You have point, the arches aren't supposed to be real, however, at least in Jordan's version, it's centred around Nyanaeve, and hse is some how able to use the power, in rthe arches, or isn't thought to be possible.
    The power can be used inside but the Tower believes if you do you get burned out. They sent 3 sisters in as a test. 1 was unwarded. 2 were warded so they didn't forget who they were. The warded ones came out burned out after channeling inside.

    They don't warn novices since you don't remember you can use the power so it is rarely an issue. A good theory for why Ny'naeve could remember is her innate ability to resist compulsion. The original purpose for the arches is in the notes but Brandon Sanderson couldn't recall off the top of his head when asked about it. That purpose could answer some of the questions surrounding it.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  6. #3746
    Quote Originally Posted by ringpriest View Post
    That relationship is actually canonical, although, as with a great many details, Jordan left it very low-key, because it's not what his story was about. (I'm not sure what the showrunner's story is about, and I'm skeptical that they do, either, which is perhaps the heart of the difficulty.)

    Anyway, here's fansite (for the books) that goes into a lot of detail on "pillow-friends":
    http://13depository.blogspot.com/200...d-to-know.html
    Nah, there is a certain crowd among the gay community, that LOVE interpreting everything as gay and even the slightest thing.

    Pillow friends doesn't mean sexual, it has been used to also refer to sexual activities but is certainly not exclusive to it.

    Interpreting it that way is taking liberties, the Siuan Sanche in the books, might have had a "thing" with Moiraine, that wasn't necessarily sexual but you could argue could have been, and that is the MOST you can argue - could have been, but could not have been.

    The adult Siuan , decades later is certainly not, nor is Siuan who getsseverred, she is straight and falls in love and evetually gets with Gareth Byrne, not a hint of lesbian girl love, not a trace, and as an lgbt person myself who is not into the nonsnese going around, I picked up zero trace in the books.

    Yes, Jordan did understate certain things, and didn't expand, like there is definitely a hint of lesbian love amongst the reds, that I picked up, I can't tell whether he meant it to be, but given how "liberal" [for that time], his writing and views are and actually how very socially diverse they were, I wouldn't be surprised if that was the thought he had for htem, but didn't feel he needed to state it obviously o or make a deal w of it.


    These peopel thing EVERY thing, EVERY where has to have gay or lesbian people coming out of the woodworks, ti's just awful. While i love the fact that a lot more shows have lgbt characters, and they can be anything from mains to part of the main cast or sides. Characters that aren't painted as evil or perverted, then killed off to make a point.. I absolutely abhor EVERYTHING been made gay too, becuse it's not howthe world is and I actually like the books I read to have shows that properly reflect them.

    I don't have to have a black gay male represetned in Tolkein's work if TOlkein's work had none of those, this is me speaking as a mixed race, gay male that loves my gals and my gays, I like Tolkein for what it reflects, the type of society he lived in, in his time in his world, i don't need it changed, i need it faithfully presented so the best of it is visible on screen.

    Same with wheel of timme, since the book had no overtly gay characters, I don't need the show to have on, I thoroughly enjoyed the book without it having any gay characters, I didn't need it to have one, just because I feel that way.

    It's so annoying, usually feel cheated when they do this stuff. They so arrogant, they genuinely they have "fixed" the author's work and I wouldn't even be surprised if some of them think it's superior or an improvement.

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    I noticed Cairhien is also led by a queen.

    You see what I mean by ultra feminist stuff? Constant, the show is worse for it, but I'm still watching.

    There can't be kings or male rulers, cos int his world, because the Aes Sedai rule, men can't, so they are playing out someone's fantasy of what they think a man is/does and have that role-reversed so it's all women and no men.

    There is no balance, there is no realism in it, at least in Jordan's world, You had powerful queens, but you also had lots of kings, and men were still men, and it fit, I never once felt men were less because women were more powerful in the book, but I did feel that women were really powerful in the book and I loved that.

    Wat they are doing here? Is garbage, I don't like it. THe crazy people in hollywood have taken over this show.l

  7. #3747
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Pillow friends doesn't mean sexual, it has been used to also refer to sexual activities but is certainly not exclusive to it.
    The Author disagrees with you.

    Number 8 at https://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=210
    Robert Jordan

    And for MJJ, as posted by DomA, pillow friends are not just good friends. Oh, they are that, too, but they also get hot and sweaty together and muss up the sheets something fierce. By the way, pillow friends is a term used in the White Tower. The same relationship between men or women elsewhere would be called something else, depending on the country.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  8. #3748
    Every time, every time i start to warm up to the show for what it is, it does something that annoys me.

    Now it's Mat.. sobbing " I don't know where to go", "I have nowhere to go" - that may have been endearing on another character, but, the Mat of the book is the "sane" yet crazy one, the one that is most like us. Street smart, you see open door, you go.. he won't be going "oh I don't know where to go"

    I was just viewing the obvious male subservience as an interesting take,hough i don't like it, after Logain's speech to Rand, how the women castrate us.. hehe.. sound about right, it's nice being the underdog, but only when the underdog wins, however I know the views the showrunners hold to, they're not making the women more dominant as a narrative ploy to up swing men in the show later on, nope, it's their religion, their political and social view of things, that's their order, so there will be no "underdog" winning.

    To them, the fact that Rand is the dragon reborn, is there version of the underdog will win, but he will have side role in the story where he is the main hero, and his achievements willbe eclipsed by female Gandalf and Nynaeve.

    Meanwhile Ta'veren? that entire fantasy is cut, nothing mentioned of it, I saw the Cairhien party, glad they wove that in, but it has no where near the fascination and captivation the run had in the book.

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    I'll be interested to see what people who watch the show first before the book think. Not paid for youtubers, just normal people.

    I wonder if the show inspired first timers to get the book

    And if they read it, I wonder what they thought about the book compared to the show.

    With the scene were Balzamon visits Perrin in the prisoner transport , it could have been a welcome addition to the original narrative that tells us Ishamael still kept tabs on the other 2 ta'veren seeking to bend them to the Dark One, though by far his principle focus was Rand.

    However off course, Perrin is never a prisoner of the Seanchan in the books, and the Seanchan, let everyone who've sworn oaths go about freely, so why he is in chains is certainly not canonical.

    But for a person who has no idea they had such distintinctive qualities, they would never question that. The Seanchan in the show so far lack any of the curious distincitiveness the book paints them in, which made them interesting. I meanit'searly days yet off course , but so far they only look weird, like in conquering force, they do pretty much the same things, I did very much prefer that unique way of the seanchan regarding those who swore the oaths in the book.

    But the book told you what oaths, and why..;; show hasn't explained any of that.

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    And off course, Rand burns down the foregate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The Author disagrees with you.

    Number 8 at https://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=210
    Robert Jordan

    And for MJJ, as posted by DomA, pillow friends are not just good friends. Oh, they are that, too, but they also get hot and sweaty together and muss up the sheets something fierce. By the way, pillow friends is a term used in the White Tower. The same relationship between men or women elsewhere would be called something else, depending on the country.
    The author didn't invent the expression, and that was what I was referring to in that statement.

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    In this version, the women are heading off to rescue the men, lol.. it's Perrin and Loial that are captured by the seanchan, and they need the women to come save them.. and some of you doub t they aren't gender-role swapping because of thier stupid ideology that a man can't rescue a woman.. so stupid,

    Remember when Lan comes to help Moiraine fend of the trollocs? Only he fails, it takes another woman, to rescue them, not a man, because know, that can't happen. Are women supposed to be offended when men rescue them.

    I may have enjoyed this more if it was touted as a satyr on the actual book, or came after a proper Wheel of Tiem film or tb series had been world famous and people were making satirical interpretations.. however as the only live action version we'll likely ever see since these people will hug the rights, i'm annoyed.

  9. #3749
    The Unstoppable Force Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpaghettiMonk View Post
    And there's this weird sex thing with Egwene where I'm totally confused what the hell was going on with the Aes Sedai telling her how to have an orgasm or something.

    This Moiraine and Lan storyline is the worst shit ever.
    "we will have our game of thrones"

    That's so cringe for a fantasy show

  10. #3750
    Quote Originally Posted by Gumble View Post
    The irony is that the books DO give an explanation for this, that all of you are just ignoring........
    Not really "ignoring" it, just not considering it, as going with that as the setting has it's own share of issues. The main one being that you are basically telling a "dead story". The books are very clear that there is only one "true" weave of the pattern. The realms accessed through the portal stones are basically "what if's": Echoes of possibilities that never happened, shadows of things that might have been. Canonically in the lore, all of those "what if" worlds are doomed to eventually fade into nothingness and disappear as they become more and more attenuated and disconnected from the reality of the "true" pattern. There is no "multiverse" element to the turning of the Wheel, to the extent that there is only one "stable" universe. So telling an alternate story using the Portal Stone "what if" realms as a base is kind of self defeating.

  11. #3751
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    There is no "multiverse" element to the turning of the Wheel, to the extent that there is only one "stable" universe. So telling an alternate story using the Portal Stone "what if" realms as a base is kind of self defeating.
    That isn't true. A multiverse exists but not with mirror worlds. They exist with Parallel worlds. The Ogier and the fins come from such a world. They have existed as long as the wheel has turned and thus there are multiple "stable" universes. Robert Jordan even said it is possible they have their own reflections (mirror worlds). There might also be perpendicular worlds though that seems like another name for parallel ones.

    Telling an alternate story with portal stones is not self defeating. Why does that story have to exist in a prime plane? It is still a story being told. It is a made up story and not a real world history.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  12. #3752
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    That isn't true. A multiverse exists but not with mirror worlds. They exist with Parallel worlds.
    A multiverse is not a requirement for other dimensions to exist, nor do their existence imply that they might be somehow outside of the Wheel and the Pattern. The World of Dreams could be considered "another dimension" depending on how you look at it, yet it's still just one aspect of the Wheel and the Pattern. The home space of the Finn is just more of the same. Of course, we will never truly know, as the exact nature of their home dimension is never clarified in detail by Jordan.

    I can say for certain that it was never implied or suggested that there are Multiple Wheels spinning multiple Patterns, which is the only way a multiverse could work in the context of Jordan's cosmology.

    And telling a story set in a Portal Stone alternate universe IS pointless, because nothing that happens there matters. The very nature of the worlds of If mean that setting a story there is the literal equivalent of mental masturbation, since only the "True" pattern matters.

  13. #3753
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    A multiverse is not a requirement for other dimensions to exist, nor do their existence imply that they might be somehow outside of the Wheel and the Pattern. The World of Dreams could be considered "another dimension" depending on how you look at it, yet it's still just one aspect of the Wheel and the Pattern.
    Multiverse as a term can encompass different dimensions. Ignoring science it is a catch-all term. Brandon Sanderson also stated that the books have multiverse philosophy. Robert Jordan did base some of his stuff on known theory of physics (and directly references mirror worlds in that regard).

    Brandon Sanderson- The Wheel of Time already crosses over with every fantasy series because the Wheel of Time contains the multiverse philosophy, that all other worlds are shadows of the Wheel of Time world. So they're already there. Otherwise I just wouldn't want to see anything like that happen, it just wouldn't feel right to me. But that's an amusing question, thank you for it.



    Brandon Sanderson said according to the notes/Jordan the world of dream covers all worlds. This is implied to be mirror instead of parallel worlds since the Blight exists as apart from the normal universe and is not reflected in the world of dreams. The same as a stedding and lands of the Alefinn/Eelfinn. This implies that they aren't just a different plane/dimension but actual different universes that can be accessed.

    Robert Jordan - You can not enter it from Tel'aran'rhiod because it is apart from NORMAL UNIVERSE and can not be touched. The Blight is not part of the normal universe.

    I never said multiple wheels exist. Only that the wheel is controls everything including the parallel worlds. The Finns have existed as long as the wheel. They have souls. They are not from a perpendicular world (though I'm unsure of how RJ defined that). They aren't human in origin. They are not related to or control the world of dreams. I won't copy the proof here since that is all from a succession of questions and answers.

    However, Mr. Sanderson did refuse to answer the question on if there are many parallel patterns, or just one. If there are many Wheels or just one. He said it isn't within the scope of the books and none of the characters could know that. So it wasn't his place to step in and end the discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    And telling a story set in a Portal Stone alternate universe IS pointless, because nothing that happens there matters. The very nature of the worlds of If mean that setting a story there is the literal equivalent of mental masturbation, since only the "True" pattern matters.
    That describes anything in the Wheel of Time universe. Since the wheel turns and spins out the pattern all over again. So nothing that happens matters because it is all part of the wheel. It is also super weird for you to be arguing both in-universe and out-of-universe at the same time.

    You know this is a work of fiction, right? That just because Robert Jordan created it as a history/future of our own reality that it isn't actually real. And that mirror worlds could be part of a story for a work of fiction? Have you never seen Quantum Leap (the original or remake)? Or how about Sliders? They all told stories from "fleeting worlds" that ultimately didn't matter.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2023-09-03 at 06:45 AM.
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  14. #3754
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Multiverse as a term can encompass different dimensions.
    It can, yes. But like I said, that doesn't mean it has to.

    The Finns have existed as long as the wheel. They have souls. They are not from a perpendicular world (though I'm unsure of how RJ defined that). They aren't human in origin. They are not related to or control the world of dreams.
    So? Literally none of that suggests they come from an entirely different "universe". Just because they happen to be inhuman is irrelevant. I also never said they control the world of dreams. I said that their home is probably just similar in nature to the World of Dreams: an overlay or underlay with a different perspective on the pattern than the "real" world.

    That describes anything in the Wheel of Time universe. Since the wheel turns and spins out the pattern all over again. So nothing that happens matters because it is all part of the wheel.
    Suggesting that nothing that happens in the True pattern matters because the pattern is cyclical in nature is a pretty weird hot take, and basically ignores pretty much the entire philosophical foundation the cosmology Jordan set up revolves around.......... like, wow......

    Have you never seen Quantum Leap (the original or remake)? Or how about Sliders? They all told stories from "fleeting worlds" that ultimate didn't matter.
    Umm, what? Pretty sure that Sliders operated on a "all probabilities create fully stable branching realities" multiverse theory, so no, the actions of the people in those alternate realities very much mattered, because those changes are permanent to those realities once they leave, and those realities exist as their own, unique branching alter-verses. if they started a war before buggering off, the people in that world would have to deal with the fallout in a very real manner. Not the same at all as the Portal Stone worlds of If.

    Quantum leap was different, because it involved time travel shenanigans where the main character keeps needing to "fix" what appears to be timeline mistakes before he can jump to a new host, which isn't really multiverse related. I mean, it's been a long time since I watched Quantum leap, but I don't recall the show ever going into much detail about its universe theories or having much in the way of in depth explanations for what might be causing the timeline issues he always ends up having to fix in each episode.
    Last edited by Surfd; 2023-09-03 at 06:57 AM.

  15. #3755
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    So? Literally none of that suggests they come from an entirely different "universe". Just because they happen to be inhuman is irrelevant. I also never said they control the world of dreams. I said that their home is probably just similar in nature to the World of Dreams: an overlay or underlay with a different perspective on the pattern than the "real" world.
    The World of Dreams is not a parallel world. Their home is. It is not similar in nature.

    Suggesting that nothing that happens in the True pattern matters because the pattern is cyclical in nature is a pretty weird hot take, and basically ignores pretty much the entire philosophical foundation the cosmology Jordan set up revolves around.......... like, wow......
    The entire basis for the wheel is that it is a wheel. A circle. It keeps turning and the same events play out over, and over, and over again. So it is pointless to tell the story of Rand sealing the dark one up because he will break free again and be sealed up again until the wheel stops turning. I'm not sure why you think that isn't the case.

    How do you know those realities still existed, though? They are works of fiction that very rarely got revisited on the shows. A mirror world exists in some fashion because you go back and forth into the same one. Why can't the showrunners be telling the story of a mirror world? It is a work of fiction so none of it matters. It is fake. You are arguing that a work of fiction can't exist about something that doesn't matter in-universe. So how did Robert Jordan write about mirror worlds in the first place?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  16. #3756
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The entire basis for the wheel is that it is a wheel. A circle. It keeps turning and the same events play out over, and over, and over again. So it is pointless to tell the story of Rand sealing the dark one up because he will break free again and be sealed up again until the wheel stops turning. I'm not sure why you think that isn't the case.
    I think I have figured it out. Were almost 200 pages into a WoT discussion thread, and you have finally pointed out that you completely missed the point of the entire series's deeper philosophical topics.............

    I mean, for fuck sake, Rand literally spends like 2 full books agonizing over this very philosophical topic, weather there is any real point in the struggle if he is to believe that the fight can never truly be won, and you somehow never picked up on that?!?! Did you even read the series at all?
    Last edited by Surfd; 2023-09-03 at 07:31 AM.

  17. #3757
    The Unstoppable Force rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    I mean, for fuck sake, Rand literally spends like 2 full books agonizing over this very philosophical topic, weather there is any real point in the struggle if he is to believe that the fight can never truly be won, and you somehow never picked up on that?!?! Did you even read the series at all?
    It is strange that you say I missed the point when you keep pointing out you have. The wheel keeps turning. The pattern keeps controlling events so each age has the same major events as the previous turning of the wheel. Rand and his other-turn counterparts have defeated the Dark One countless times before. We don't know what turning of the wheel the story takes place on. Is it the first one? The hundredth one? Or has there been a million turnings before?

    Your dismissal of mirror worlds applies to telling the story of a specific turning of the wheel. It doesn't matter because it has no importance at all. It is a story, just the same, as a mirror world would be. I'm still baffled that you are applying in-universe reasoning to an out-of-universe story.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2023-09-03 at 03:49 PM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  18. #3758
    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    you are basically telling a "dead story".
    /nods

    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    The books are very clear that there is only one "true" weave of the pattern.
    /nods

    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    Canonically in the lore, all of those "what if" worlds are doomed to eventually fade into nothingness and disappear as they become more and more attenuated and disconnected from the reality of the "true" pattern.
    /nods

    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    There is no "multiverse" element to the turning of the Wheel, to the extent that there is only one "stable" universe. So telling an alternate story using the Portal Stone "what if" realms as a base is kind of self defeating.
    /nods

    You just described the Amazon show perfectly. Portal world.

  19. #3759
    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    I think I have figured it out. Were almost 200 pages into a WoT discussion thread, and you have finally pointed out that you completely missed the point of the entire series's deeper philosophical topics.............
    I mean, for fuck sake, Rand literally spends like 2 full books agonizing over this very philosophical topic, weather there is any real point in the struggle if he is to believe that the fight can never truly be won, and you somehow never picked up on that?!?! Did you even read the series at all?
    You're arguing with someone that's never read the books. Just the cliff notes that a wiki site provides.

    His logic and reasoning have never existed on any topic. It's wise to simply ignore. He's very much a "bad faith" poster as he's never had a convincing argument.

  20. #3760
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Your dismissal of mirror worlds applies to telling the story of a specific turning of the wheel. It doesn't matter because it has no importance at all. It is a story, just the same, as a mirror world would be. I'm still baffled that you are applying in-universe reasoning to an out-of-universe story.
    Not important, consistent, logical or interesting!

    But yeah, it is a story. A boring one. I guess none of the "mirror worlds" were interesting? Since this is a "mirror world", can we expect Rand or Perrin to be killed off this season or next? For Ishamel to turn to light? Min to lead the world in this doomed "last battle"?

    Nah, this show will copy the "over arching" theme of "main world" because writers are too dumb to write a new story. They are just rewriting how to achieve the same ends. Poorly. Light will win in this mirror world, too. Right?


    P.S: I bet even Aiel are going to have "fEMALE" leaders. In Moraineland, there are no male leaders. And how utterly usless Lan is, dead god!
    Last edited by jdbond592; 2023-09-04 at 02:58 PM.

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