1. #4221
    If Peter Jackson changed as much of the LotR plot and characters that Rafe is doing with WoT I would have complained about the LotR movies as well. I don't hate the WoT series. But it is so far removed from the books as to not be enjoyable to me.

    Edit: And that will be my last go around on this. You seem to think LotR and WoT are on equal level when it comes to adaptation. And I can't compete with that level of denial.
    Last edited by Redwyrm; 2023-10-09 at 02:17 PM.
    "The customer is always right" is a nice way of saying "I will put up with your bullshit as long as you pay me"

  2. #4222
    Quote Originally Posted by Redwyrm View Post
    And I can't compete with that level of denial.
    We all got there after a while

  3. #4223
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Kind of like how the White Tower grew to dominate the "known" world over 3,000 years? I'm not sure why you are bringing the Critics choice Sofee seal into this. Wheel of Time has not received it.
    Despite using the same word, that is not the dominance I am referring to.

  4. #4224
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Well the problem is the people still complaining about the show are mostly people who haven’t watched the new season so even if they did “get it right” they wouldn’t know because there still trailing off of season 1 complaints and applying them to season 2.
    See there are these things called "reviewers". They are people who watch a thing or try a thing and give their opinion on it. As a general rule, you have to do a bit of searching to find ones who:

    A) Have a similar taste to you
    B) Are honest

    Sadly, most reviewers don't really fit either of those, but the ones that do..... and have bothered to check out S2 of RoT..... all seem to agree that it is still the incredible pile of poop that the first season is. These are the same types of people that totally turned around on Picard S3, after trashing the first 2 seasons, so it is reasonable to believe they can admit when something turns itself around.

    RoT hasn't. Feel free to like it, but you're consuming trash. I don't tell raccoons that eating trash is below them, but I also am not going to pretend they aren't still eating trash.

  5. #4225
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gumble View Post
    See there are these things called "reviewers". They are people who watch a thing or try a thing and give their opinion on it. As a general rule, you have to do a bit of searching to find ones who:

    A) Have a similar taste to you
    B) Are honest

    Sadly, most reviewers don't really fit either of those, but the ones that do..... and have bothered to check out S2 of RoT..... all seem to agree that it is still the incredible pile of poop that the first season is. These are the same types of people that totally turned around on Picard S3, after trashing the first 2 seasons, so it is reasonable to believe they can admit when something turns itself around.

    RoT hasn't. Feel free to like it, but you're consuming trash. I don't tell raccoons that eating trash is below them, but I also am not going to pretend they aren't still eating trash.
    They weren’t talking about reviewers in general they were talking about people in this thread, a good portion of who haven’t watched the season.

    Not that I’d trust any “reviewer” you cited or give any credence to what you think is “trash”.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  6. #4226
    Quote Originally Posted by Redwyrm View Post
    Here's the quote from the article you linked



    A petition about the movie they hadn't seen yet. And Jackson did move closer to the books. WoT seems to be moving further away.
    Jackson kept to the spirit of the books, and the ideals of the author too, even where it changed things. Most of those arguing against you are being intentionally thick. They know what you mean, they're just refusing to admit.

    Rings of Power would be a better example of someone writing in a universe and changing the spirit and ideals it is based upon, inserting their own beliefs and values rather than that of the authors as represented in the book.

    Wheel of time we can all see is not just changing scenes, it is changing the entire world view and world system from a political and socio ideological point of view. it's converting wheel of time into intersectional feminisms world view, which it has the nerve to claim is modern times, given the book series only ended 10 years ago, and up to 2019 was considered woke as hell, until those cult people moved the goal posts again, , claiming to be champions of woke and now adding all the crazy were have in critical race theory, intersectional feminism, QT and socialist ideals, their world view framework is built on.

    So as they shifted the goal posts again, what was easily and clearly woke in 2019, isn't woke enough, is not good enough, is not a firing enough, is not respectful enough - and it's not about what that fantasy world's ideals and human spectrum /relationships are, no, , no, they have to scrap that narrative and build it upon their own idealism... which they think is the correct way how things should be, and what to send a message to all the views of thow the proper storytelling and interactions between humans should be.

    First of all, - women must have all the main roles. It's not about women having the power or being dominant in the world. clearly in Jordan's book women are at the top of the power chain through the Aes Sedai, and then the Seanchan too, every society has women influential, and written every bit as equal as men, even in patriarchal or men ruled nations like Illian, Tear, Cairhien etc. The Aiel chieftains and the Wise ones are equally powerful but in different ways as they tend to different aspects of leadership. The womens circle and Village council you get the feeling are equals even though technically the men lead.. it's more like they think they lead, but in actual fact both organisations together end up determining best.

    No the dominance is not in the book world, the dominance is in the cast and the scenes and the show, it's not just enough that women are central in the world, but the cast and the scenes have to also have the women better represented than the men, having better roles, doing more, even though this is not the case in the story. The story 's main hero is a man, the Dragon, his two male friends are the protagonists and 2 major characters, then you have the two female Emond's fielders, Moiraine, Elayne etc in a long list of characters.

    So most of Rand and the boys scenes are removed, and then altered, because in the book they have good roles, but men can't have good roles in their ideology that are more or greater than women.

    women must have equal or more, men can't tell women what to do, men cannot save women, a woman must save herself. A woman doesn't need a man. this is not a rule for some women as it is in real life and in the book life, no, EVERY character must confirm to this. this is off course feminist ideals, what i call ultra feminists. It's female empowerment, in a book that wasn't written for today's type of feminist and to empower women in the way these people now say is empowering women. Which is really female domination. A far cry from female equality , which is what feminism was originally based on.


    To them, women are only empowered in entertainment if they have better and more roles than men, if they lead the charges, if they alone do the saving and are not saved by men, ec etc, they turned it into a Gen 4 feminist piece - which is just all ideology from a fringe group. But this is what the major Hollywood studios are doing.. and you can see it. But then it's been driven by female execs... Amazon's female exec is the one leading the Rings of Power and Wheel of Time, it's KK that's doing Star Wars, they are the ones turning this franchises, created by men, that also appeal to a lot men, into these "ultra"/intersectional feminism pieces they feel is what we should all see and what is responsible storytelling and good morality.

    See, it's their ideology, their values and views, which even in America is still a minority, and are far fringe thing world wide. Which is why they are are now where ear as popular as their brand and investment requires.

  7. #4227
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redwyrm View Post
    Edit: And that will be my last go around on this. You seem to think LotR and WoT are on equal level when it comes to adaptation. And I can't compete with that level of denial.
    I never said that and it is silly to think that I did. It is crazy how often people have to invent things just so they can feel superior to another poster when it comes to discussing Wheel of Time.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Yes, Jackson had a more faithful adaptation then Wheel of Time but it still got hate over it.
    This means equal adaptations? The problem is you are seeing what you want to see. Which is part of my point. When you like something you don't see all of the bad things that you do when you do like something. It is why the changes in Jackson's work gets over looked because his films are well liked. If they weren't then all of those changes would suddenly be focal points of online discussions. Just like a lot of the things in this thread. They are brought up just because people are unhappy with the show but wouldn't be an issue if they were otherwise happy.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2023-10-09 at 04:10 PM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  8. #4228
    I honestly think several parts of Wheel of Time DID need to be reworked. I am sorry but I had trouble with Rand's polygamy then and I have a vastly greater trouble now, especially given how extraordinarily shallow his relationship with Elayne was.
    I might have kept Elayne in the story if I was doing the adaptation and even have them hook up in Tear only for them later on to just discuss how it was just sexual attraction and nothing long term. I mean Elayne pretty much liked Rand cause he was hot and important and Rand liked her for similar reasons.

  9. #4229
    Quote Originally Posted by Flurryfang View Post
    This is a very hard show to watch as a lover of the books.

    It takes a very different direction than the books, almost to a point where it is more its own story than an adaptation, which is why when the departures are bad, it becomes painful to watch.

    I think the word which comes to my mind when watching the show is "mis-representation". Like, the show might be good and a lot of people are liking it, but does it really represent what the Wheel of Time story is, what it is about and what it is trying to convey? Some of the major themes of the books are completely ignored and some of them are twisted, making it into some allegory of modern time problems, instead of a generel theme.


    After watching most of season 2, i can now say, that the Wheel of Time TV show will never be for me. I am too connected to the books, its themes and its story arcs. Seeing a different interpretation of it, and how much it seperates itself from the books, the show becomes painful to see, no matter how good the acting is or how good a new story they might be making.

    While i like that a TV show atleast got made, it does not change, that i am a bit sad, that we did not get a more true-to-the-books story, which i could have enjoyed aswell.
    Very hard to watch. And yes, I echo that sentiment, it will never be for me. It is sad, I feel that this could have been a hugely popular and entertaining show, fun , dynamic and with very broad appeal. Hteir changes have really removed all that. It's mostly cringey, delusional, and often nonsensical. it's not funny, no whimsical moments, the fantasy iss all over the place, and it's rubbishing of one of my favourite book series of all time to date.

  10. #4230
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I honestly think several parts of Wheel of Time DID need to be reworked. I am sorry but I had trouble with Rand's polygamy then and I have a vastly greater trouble now, especially given how extraordinarily shallow his relationship with Elayne was.
    I might have kept Elayne in the story if I was doing the adaptation and even have them hook up in Tear only for them later on to just discuss how it was just sexual attraction and nothing long term. I mean Elayne pretty much liked Rand cause he was hot and important and Rand liked her for similar reasons.
    I didn't care for the polygamy too much either way, but his relationship with Elayne did feel forced, it lacked sorely compared to Min and Aviendha. Also they did Min dirty in the show and that pissed me off too, like she was only a few years older in the books, but for the show they cast a woman darn near in her 40s (and don't get me wrong the actress is quite attractive, but she is too old for the part).
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  11. #4231
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    You are trolling nobody who had read the books would be in favor of the horn being recovered off screen which was a huge Rand moment in the books
    I said the scene with the heroes of the horn was good because for me it was. You don't like the show, I get that, but some people, myself included do. Yes, the show has a lot of changes from the books, which sucks a bit but the show is still enjoyable to me. So please stop telling me I'm trolling and acting like you know more about how much I do or don't like things.
    Last edited by NightZero88; 2023-10-09 at 06:06 PM.

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  12. #4232
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    On book stuff, Is there like any one at all who likes Elayne? any friend I've talked to about the series all agree she sucks for one reason or another and I don't even think I've ever seen a good word about her online.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  13. #4233
    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    I didn't care for the polygamy too much either way, but his relationship with Elayne did feel forced, it lacked sorely compared to Min and Aviendha. Also they did Min dirty in the show and that pissed me off too, like she was only a few years older in the books, but for the show they cast a woman darn near in her 40s (and don't get me wrong the actress is quite attractive, but she is too old for the part).
    I think in the books Rand is in his early 20s and Min is in her early 30s so a full decade. She looks younger with the tomboy look but the few times she does the Elmindreda act she should look more her age. And yeah reading the books you can tell that he actually loves Min. She is his best friend and his support through everything. And with Aviendha the relationship is more dynamic because of how tsundere Aviendha is but it still doesn't have the same depth. Imo I would have made Aviendha develop a sibling bond with Rand instead, have him see her as his younger sister.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    On book stuff, Is there like any one at all who likes Elayne? any friend I've talked to about the series all agree she sucks for one reason or another and I don't even think I've ever seen a good word about her online.
    There is no depth to her, she has the most shallow relation with Rand, she barely supports any character around her. Honestly the only thing that saves her is Birgitte being near her. She is extremely cocky which makes sense early on because she grew up expecting to be a Queen AND a powerful Aes Sedai then she spends half the books with Nynaeve who is pretty much better than her in every way and the other half in the most painfully slow and boring subplot. I mean Perrin saving Faile from the Shaido is nearly as bad but at least it has some moments that are extremely cool for both him and others.

  14. #4234
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I honestly think several parts of Wheel of Time DID need to be reworked. I am sorry but I had trouble with Rand's polygamy then and I have a vastly greater trouble now, especially given how extraordinarily shallow his relationship with Elayne was.
    I might have kept Elayne in the story if I was doing the adaptation and even have them hook up in Tear only for them later on to just discuss how it was just sexual attraction and nothing long term. I mean Elayne pretty much liked Rand cause he was hot and important and Rand liked her for similar reasons.
    Always found this a little strange since polygamy is the dominant tradition for most of human history and it's not like Christianity exists in most fantasy lol.
    “Every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket.” -Eric Hoffer

  15. #4235
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    There is no depth to her, she has the most shallow relation with Rand, she barely supports any character around her. Honestly the only thing that saves her is Birgitte being near her. She is extremely cocky which makes sense early on because she grew up expecting to be a Queen AND a powerful Aes Sedai then she spends half the books with Nynaeve who is pretty much better than her in every way and the other half in the most painfully slow and boring subplot. I mean Perrin saving Faile from the Shaido is nearly as bad but at least it has some moments that are extremely cool for both him and others.
    Ya these are pretty much my thoughts exactly.

    Birgitte Is great so at best you can say she intertwined with her but beyond that she’s awful.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  16. #4236
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I think in the books Rand is in his early 20s and Min is in her early 30s so a full decade. She looks younger with the tomboy look but the few times she does the Elmindreda act she should look more her age. And yeah reading the books you can tell that he actually loves Min. She is his best friend and his support through everything. And with Aviendha the relationship is more dynamic because of how tsundere Aviendha is but it still doesn't have the same depth. Imo I would have made Aviendha develop a sibling bond with Rand instead, have him see her as his younger sister.
    I just looked, it isn't a full decade, it is three years. Eye of the world Rand is 20, Min is 23, IIRC it was her viewings that kind of forced her to be more mature, which causes you to think she is a quite a bit older than Rand, but she really wasn't.

    I do agree they had the best relationship, though I did enjoy his pairing with Aviendha as well.

    When it was announced I wondered if they would have the balls to do a polygamy relationship, and while I guess that hasn't been settled, looks like it is a no.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  17. #4237
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    Always found this a little strange since polygamy is the dominant tradition for most of human history and it's not like Christianity exists in most fantasy lol.
    Polygamy was a dominant tradition because it had numerous advantages in patriarchies with patrilineal inheritance by guaranteeing male heirs at times where both infant and child mortality were high as well as giving women a way to survive by allowing men with large fortunes to support multiple women. The Wheel of Time seems to have decent healthcare with the village Wisdoms having grasp of several hygiene principles plus I assume that channelers would help deal with pandemics.

    That said, I am all for polyamory as long as the relationships are all reasonably meaningful. I'm not asking for some equity in love or anything but Rand's relationship with Elayne is just so shallow compared to the other two.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Ya these are pretty much my thoughts exactly.

    Birgitte Is great so at best you can say she intertwined with her but beyond that she’s awful.
    Birgitte and Matt together are just comedy gold.

  18. #4238
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Polygamy was a dominant tradition because it had numerous advantages in patriarchies with patrilineal inheritance by guaranteeing male heirs at times where both infant and child mortality were high as well as giving women a way to survive by allowing men with large fortunes to support multiple women. The Wheel of Time seems to have decent healthcare with the village Wisdoms having grasp of several hygiene principles plus I assume that channelers would help deal with pandemics.

    That said, I am all for polyamory as long as the relationships are all reasonably meaningful. I'm not asking for some equity in love or anything but Rand's relationship with Elayne is just so shallow compared to the other two.
    Honestly a change of just Aviendha and Min being his partners would have been one I accepted without complaints. Could have been an area a good writer flexes their writing chops.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  19. #4239
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I think in the books Rand is in his early 20s and Min is in her early 30s so a full decade
    Min is 23 and Rand is 19 in the book at the start of Eye of the World. http://13depository.blogspot.com/200...haracters.html That link has characters and their birth years with sources. The books start in spring of 998.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  20. #4240
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Did the Jackson's movies change anything beyond the Bombadil part? Which honestly I felt was weird within the context of the trilogy alone anyway.

    I mean it would be like skipping the meeting with the Green Man in the Eye of the World. Sure it would be a change to the story but a very minor one that only has a call back far later in the story.
    You could say the "Eye of Sauron" is referenced in the books but I don't think made in a real eyeball looking down over anything.
    In the books, the Elves aren't as grim.
    Some of the relationships of Sam and Frodo. More upper class and lower class in the books.
    The Army of the Dead is different in the books.
    Jackson also left out the The Scouring of the Shire

    I would say it doesn't really change much honestly. Now the Hobbit? That is another whole discussion..

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