1. #4321
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    The showrunner deliberately alienated fans of the books.
    Take that as you will. But I assure you the books are superior to the show in every way.
    Listening to the books again, and I'm just like.. how could you not make this into a HIT TV show, LOTR level of popularity, the book has it all.

    I sometimes wonder how much I may have liked the show if here was no book. I would have been a lot more forgiving, and just enjoyed it as a cheesy fantasy with the occasional cool effects and some eye candy cast, with some fantasy setting.

    But having read he books, the standard and expectation has been set at a much higher bar.. and the show simply insults it. The actors are the only ones that seemed o be really trying.

    Showrunner cheated the world to spread the word of his writing staff's ideology. Sahrkis wanted a fem positive show, and in her eyes, fem positive is ultra feminism - SOFEE type - what now counts for feminism,

  2. #4322
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    On book stuff, Is there like any one at all who likes Elayne? any friend I've talked to about the series all agree she sucks for one reason or another and I don't even think I've ever seen a good word about her online.
    Honestly - and its been over a decade since I've read the books (not watched the show), but for what its worth -

    The only character I remember being annoyed and sick of, was Nynaeve. I don't remember much specific about Elayne, so that probably doesn't lend itself to the idea that she made any "great" or "bad" impression, necessarily. More that she just doesn't stand out as much as my memories of most of the other 'main' characters.

    But Nyn, for some reason I got really sick of reading about her thoughts/feelings and found it repetitive and, eventually, boring. And I don't /think/ it was just all the braid pulling, but maybe that biased me - as I got REALLY SICK of reading those words ad nauseam. I think it took 3-4 books for me to feel this way about Nyn, but yeah, certainly by book 7-8 I was just wanting to glaze-skip over anything detailing her inner thoughts and frustrations.

    But again, we're 10+ years out from my one time read. That's what stands out anyway. heh.
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  3. #4323
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriani View Post
    Honestly - and its been over a decade since I've read the books (not watched the show), but for what its worth -

    The only character I remember being annoyed and sick of, was Nynaeve. I don't remember much specific about Elayne, so that probably doesn't lend itself to the idea that she made any "great" or "bad" impression, necessarily. More that she just doesn't stand out as much as my memories of most of the other 'main' characters.

    But Nyn, for some reason I got really sick of reading about her thoughts/feelings and found it repetitive and, eventually, boring. And I don't /think/ it was just all the braid pulling, but maybe that biased me - as I got REALLY SICK of reading those words ad nauseam. I think it took 3-4 books for me to feel this way about Nyn, but yeah, certainly by book 7-8 I was just wanting to glaze-skip over anything detailing her inner thoughts and frustrations.

    But again, we're 10+ years out from my one time read. That's what stands out anyway. heh.
    Nynaeve Is personally my favourite character but I can very much so see why people have a problem with her as she’s a very stubborn/angry character for most of the series, and of course has that braid pulling tick which is repeated a ton in book 1-5.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  4. #4324
    And yet, Nynaeve was written up as one of the few, if not the only one, that Rand trusted implicitly with a power that could've destroyed the world.

  5. #4325
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Nynaeve Is personally my favourite character but I can very much so see why people have a problem with her as she’s a very stubborn/angry character for most of the series, and of course has that braid pulling tick which is repeated a ton in book 1-5.
    Not that uncommon. She is up there with Mat for most of the people I know who have actually read the books.

    I'm always in the minority for liking Egwene as my favorite character.

    The one change the show could have done, that would have actually improved on the books, would have been to leave Egwene's story alone, but suggest that she is Ta'veren too. Her and Nynaeve feel like they bend the pattern around them to a degree as well, Egwene more so. They may not be as strong as the boys in that regard, but Egwene's story makes alot more sense with that one change.

    But regardless, she's always been my favorite.

  6. #4326
    Scarab Lord Skizzit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gumble View Post
    Not that uncommon. She is up there with Mat for most of the people I know who have actually read the books.

    I'm always in the minority for liking Egwene as my favorite character.

    The one change the show could have done, that would have actually improved on the books, would have been to leave Egwene's story alone, but suggest that she is Ta'veren too. Her and Nynaeve feel like they bend the pattern around them to a degree as well, Egwene more so. They may not be as strong as the boys in that regard, but Egwene's story makes alot more sense with that one change.

    But regardless, she's always been my favorite.
    Man, things must change a lot as the series goes on cause I am a little over half way through book 5 and I cannot stand Nynaeve. She annoys me to no end.

    Book 5 is also around where I gave up on the series the first time I tried to read it and I can feel why. So little happens, it is just people traveling. It's just keeps jumping between 3 different groups of people traveling to places. Not to mention Perrin seems to have vanished from the series completely. I have a feeling the next few books are going to be a slog. Thank goodness for audiobooks and 1.5x playback speed.

  7. #4327
    Quote Originally Posted by Skizzit View Post
    Man, things must change a lot as the series goes on cause I am a little over half way through book 5 and I cannot stand Nynaeve. She annoys me to no end.

    Book 5 is also around where I gave up on the series the first time I tried to read it and I can feel why. So little happens, it is just people traveling. It's just keeps jumping between 3 different groups of people traveling to places. Not to mention Perrin seems to have vanished from the series completely. I have a feeling the next few books are going to be a slog. Thank goodness for audiobooks and 1.5x playback speed.
    Some spoilers on why Nynaeve gets increasingly more awesome.
    Nynaeve has a lot of crowning moments of awesome even early on. Using balefire untrained, defeating Moghedien, chaining her with the A'dam and then using her to save Rand, healing Loghain, breaking her block. How she manages to help Rand and how she is one of the few people he seems to trust completely (imo he only 100% trusts Min and Nynaeve). In the last few books the way she helps her husband and creates an army for him and the fact that she actually manages to heal the madness of Saidin. For me the most important parts are the healing ones; Nynaeve twice manages to heal something that people from the Age of Wonders considered impossible. Honestly the fact that in the end everyone gangs up on Cadsuane to make her Amyrlin were Nynaeve is just there, is the strongest Aes Sedai by far (and was forced through absolute hell to get there) and literally just helped saved the world next to the Dragon made little sense to me (but she would likely have declined).
    But the best part about it is that she is just a good person and she is good unconditionally. Egwene's morality is to some extent tempered by her ambition and her increasing belief that she is the only person who knows what should be done which is a running theme in WoT that Egwene never really escapes (and Rand effectively transcends which I for one found a bit cheap). Nynaeve just genuinely wants to help people with no ulterior motive. Perrin is also like that but Perrin really only gets to shine in Sanderson's books (where frankly he becomes increasingly OP; by the end I wasn't even sure if Rand was stronger than Perrin given that Perrin could freely alter reality in the dream to an extent far greater than any of the Forsaken or even Egwene who was trained and it was her specialty).
    Last edited by Nymrohd; 2023-10-19 at 08:08 AM.

  8. #4328
    Quote Originally Posted by Skizzit View Post
    Man, things must change a lot as the series goes on cause I am a little over half way through book 5 and I cannot stand Nynaeve. She annoys me to no end.

    Book 5 is also around where I gave up on the series the first time I tried to read it and I can feel why. So little happens, it is just people traveling. It's just keeps jumping between 3 different groups of people traveling to places. Not to mention Perrin seems to have vanished from the series completely. I have a feeling the next few books are going to be a slog. Thank goodness for audiobooks and 1.5x playback speed.
    I think that would change aroung book 8? When Egwene and Nynaeve basically change places. Egwene will be such a bitch (always have been), while Nynaeve will come to best part of her history yes, her journey to North lands to rally Malkieri. Fuck that was epic. To this day I eventually find that part, it still give me chills

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Nynaeve has a lot of crowning moments of awesome even early on. Using balefire untrained, defeating Moghedien, chaining her with the A'dam and then using her to save Rand, healing Loghain, breaking her block. In the last few books the way she helps her husband and creates an army for him and the fact that she actually manages to heal the madness of saidin. For me the most important parts are the healing ones; Nynaeve twice manages to heal something that people from the Age of Wonders considered impossible.
    But the best part about it is that she is just a good person and she is good unconditionally. Egwene's morality is to some extent tempered by her ambition and her increasing belief that she is the only person who knows what should be done which is a running theme in WoT that Egwene never really escapes (and Rand effectively transcends which I for one found a bit cheap). Nynaeve just genuinely wants to help people with no ulterior motive. Perrin is also like that but Perrin really only gets to shine in Sanderson's books (where frankly he becomes increasingly OP; by the end I wasn't even sure if Rand was stronger than Perrin given that Perrin could freely alter reality in the dream to an extent far greater than any of the Forsaken or even Egwene who was trained and it was her specialty).
    Hey, spoilers! Lad only at book 5
    Also - Perrin have stronger connection and understanding the Dream, Egwene trained by amateurs, while Perrin - with pro.
    Last edited by Dancaris; 2023-10-19 at 08:08 AM.

  9. #4329
    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    I think that would change aroung book 8? When Egwene and Nynaeve basically change places. Egwene will be such a bitch (always have been), while Nynaeve will come to best part of her history yes, her journey to North lands to rally Malkieri. Fuck that was epic. To this day I eventually find that part, it still give me chills

    - - - Updated - - -



    Hey, spoilers! Lad only at book 5
    You are right, I put it on spoiler blocks so please remove it from the quote as well.

    and when she heals Loghain, heals the Ashaman and on that chapter where she rallies the Malkieri, I pretty much always happy cry
    Last edited by Nymrohd; 2023-10-19 at 08:09 AM.

  10. #4330
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    You are right, I put it on spoiler blocks so please remove it from the quote as well.

    and when she heals Loghain, heals the Ashaman and on that chapter where she rallies the Malkieri, I pretty much always happy cry
    It is time, that time of year to read chapter with that Malkieri blacksmith. The Golden Crane flies for Tarmon Gai’don.
    Last edited by Dancaris; 2023-10-19 at 08:32 AM.

  11. #4331
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    (where frankly he becomes increasingly OP; by the end I wasn't even sure if Rand was stronger than Perrin given that Perrin could freely alter reality in the dream to an extent far greater than any of the Forsaken or even Egwene who was trained and it was her specialty).
    Perrin was trained by a hero that lived partially in the Dream while he lived. After dying, he became a full teacher to Perrin.

  12. #4332
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Perrin was trained by a hero that lived partially in the Dream while he lived. After dying, he became a full teacher to Perrin.
    true but Egwene has been working on mastering the Dream since the second book. Perrin barely works on his wolfbrother skills outside finding Faile in Book 3 and then in the last couple of books he gets strong enough to treat the Forsaken like children while in the Dream.

  13. #4333
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    true but Egwene has been working on mastering the Dream since the second book. Perrin barely works on his wolfbrother skills outside finding Faile in Book 3 and then in the last couple of books he gets strong enough to treat the Forsaken like children while in the Dream.
    I think most of Dream powers are coming from sheer faith in changing world. No logic, no One power. Just sheer will to resist influence and make things bend to you. Egwene still thinks that Dream world is something to do with one power, so she treat it logic of real world.
    While Perrin is free from it.

  14. #4334
    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    I think most of Dream powers are coming from sheer faith in changing world. No logic, no One power. Just sheer will to resist influence and make things bend to you. Egwene still thinks that Dream world is something to do with one power, so she treat it logic of real world.
    While Perrin is free from it.
    Largely true. Honestly I wish they had a greater chance to interact in the dream. If only books 5-11 could be cut down by a couple of books and then books 12-14 could be stretched by the difference.

  15. #4335
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skizzit View Post
    Man, things must change a lot as the series goes on cause I am a little over half way through book 5 and I cannot stand Nynaeve. She annoys me to no end.

    Book 5 is also around where I gave up on the series the first time I tried to read it and I can feel why. So little happens, it is just people traveling. It's just keeps jumping between 3 different groups of people traveling to places. Not to mention Perrin seems to have vanished from the series completely. I have a feeling the next few books are going to be a slog. Thank goodness for audiobooks and 1.5x playback speed.
    I’m halfway through book 8 on my second time through the slog is indeed coming post book 5.

    The vast majority of 6-7 and the first half of 8 are just so much nothing happening or retreading stuff that was already covered and not interesting the first time through.

    I remember the series picking back up around book 11 or so but god does that feel far off.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  16. #4336
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    I’m halfway through book 8 on my second time through the slog is indeed coming post book 5.

    The vast majority of 6-7 and the first half of 8 are just so much nothing happening or retreading stuff that was already covered and not interesting the first time through.

    I remember the series picking back up around book 11 or so but god does that feel far off.
    I dunno man, I'm always good up through book 9. The wells, shadar logoth, and then the big event at the end of book 9. Those are all good for me.

    But, as I mentioned, I love Egwene and her efforts to truly become the position she becomes I quite enjoy. I love her laughing scene and her taking charge during the attack.

    But, I've read the series around 9 times, so I hope I like it.

  17. #4337
    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    I think most of Dream powers are coming from sheer faith in changing world. No logic, no One power. Just sheer will to resist influence and make things bend to you. Egwene still thinks that Dream world is something to do with one power, so she treat it logic of real world.
    While Perrin is free from it.
    Also I'm pretty sure that wolves have a special connection to the Dream that Wolfbrothers can use to their advantage. It's home-turf for Perrin.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Some spoilers on why Nynaeve gets increasingly more awesome.
    Nynaeve has a lot of crowning moments of awesome even early on. Using balefire untrained, defeating Moghedien, chaining her with the A'dam and then using her to save Rand, healing Loghain, breaking her block. How she manages to help Rand and how she is one of the few people he seems to trust completely (imo he only 100% trusts Min and Nynaeve). In the last few books the way she helps her husband and creates an army for him and the fact that she actually manages to heal the madness of Saidin. For me the most important parts are the healing ones; Nynaeve twice manages to heal something that people from the Age of Wonders considered impossible. Honestly the fact that in the end everyone gangs up on Cadsuane to make her Amyrlin were Nynaeve is just there, is the strongest Aes Sedai by far (and was forced through absolute hell to get there) and literally just helped saved the world next to the Dragon made little sense to me (but she would likely have declined).
    But the best part about it is that she is just a good person and she is good unconditionally. Egwene's morality is to some extent tempered by her ambition and her increasing belief that she is the only person who knows what should be done which is a running theme in WoT that Egwene never really escapes (and Rand effectively transcends which I for one found a bit cheap). Nynaeve just genuinely wants to help people with no ulterior motive. Perrin is also like that but Perrin really only gets to shine in Sanderson's books (where frankly he becomes increasingly OP; by the end I wasn't even sure if Rand was stronger than Perrin given that Perrin could freely alter reality in the dream to an extent far greater than any of the Forsaken or even Egwene who was trained and it was her specialty).
    My absolute favourite part is when Nynaeve accidentally heals Logain's Gentling and and is just like "oh shit did that just fucking happen!?"

  18. #4338
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    Also - Perrin have stronger connection and understanding the Dream, Egwene trained by amateurs, while Perrin - with pro.
    It has been stated that they are pretty much equals. Perrin has a greater instinct but Egwene has raw knowledge and understanding.
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  19. #4339
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It has been stated that they are pretty much equals. Perrin has a greater instinct but Egwene has raw knowledge and understanding.
    Where it was stated? When I was reading, I remember that Perrin taught Egwene about balefire, its just a weave.
    She is nowhere equal to him. She cant teleport there at will, she cant bend balefire, she cant use dream like Perrin do. And what greater knowledge she poses? Only some experience of Wise ones that again were self-educated. While Perrin has knowledge of all generations of wolfes. Same with understanding, she just pretending, while Perrin is pro at that.


    I think Sanderson just buff him to be his last battle so he can be cool and powerful. Same as Mat and his mist powers at last battle.
    Rule of cool. And it was cool.
    Last edited by Dancaris; 2023-10-20 at 08:05 AM.

  20. #4340
    Towards the end, it seemed most of the forsaken were leery around the "hunter."

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