[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Xath]

Well she is changed from The books because she fails at like every thing unlike in the second book where every thing works out for her.

But your right she is toned down compared to the first season where they give her random feats for no real reason.

She can't channel unless she is furious until that block is dealt with in an extremely unpleasant way she was absolutely not a mary sue in the books

[Lorgar Aurelian]

She can't channel unless she is furious until that block is dealt with in an extremely unpleasant way she was absolutely not a mary sue in the books

In theory that is true, in practice in the second book when ever she would need to channel she can channel and it’s not a block at all, and then of course without said block she solves all the problems she faces in the book one upping channellers who have years more experience then her rather they be white tower sisters or trained damane.

So while she might not be a Mary Sue for the series in general id say in the second book that’s a very fine line she’s teetering on.

[Nymrohd]

In theory that is true, in practice in the second book when ever she would need to channel she can channel and it’s not a block at all, and then of course without said block she solves all the problems she faces in the book one upping channellers who have years more experience then her rather they be white tower sisters or trained damane.

So while she might not be a Mary Sue for the series in general id say in the second book that’s a very fine line she’s teetering on.

The thing is that as the books continue, it becomes increasingly clear that Aes Sedai SUCK as channelers. They are rigidly tradition bound and most of them don't actually have to use the One Power to a great extent given they are mostly political meddlers. Plus because they poorly collect wilders and have culled male channelers from their population, they have a very low average power level so many weaves are simply beyond their ability to use.

Nynaeve can freely use weaves most Sisters could never manage without burning themselves out. She has been channeling subconsciously in order to heal for years and she has never had the limitations of the Ajahs who for some reason have disregarded Earth and Fire from their healing weaves.

Another thing you can notice as the books progress is that there is clearly a Turning of the Wheel effect affecting channelers. More and more very powerful channelers seem to appear (with multiple channelers that are stronger than Nynaeve who is only really below Lanfear in the Power among women with at least three channelers who probably equal or surpass Lanfear herself). And we meet many channelers who have absolutely mastered a pet weave or prove extremely adept at specific Talents. It's possibly that much channeling lore is just supressed by Aes Sedai custom and multiple sisters in the Tower also have their own Talent that they have never shared with others like Verin does. Not to mention that the books consistently tell us how the Forsaken are often surprised by current Age innovations; the Warder bond, healing stilling, unraveling weaves are all surprises to them (and the last one absolutely terrifies them).

Don't get me wrong; Nynaeve IS OP. But she is not a Mary Sue. Rather, the Turning of the Age pretty much requires the Pattern to just spit out a lot of Heroes.

[Mace]

In theory that is true, in practice in the second book when ever she would need to channel she can channel and it’s not a block at all, and then of course without said block she solves all the problems she faces in the book one upping channellers who have years more experience then her rather they be white tower sisters or trained damane.

So while she might not be a Mary Sue for the series in general id say in the second book that’s a very fine line she’s teetering on.

You read the books recently?

I'm going through them again.. really enjoying them. The dialogues, the fantasy, the mystery (Even knowing full well what happens now), the key moments.

None of them in the show.. the charm and sass bled all out. I just found myself laughing out loud when Matt ta interacts with Berelain, and the way Jordan writes it.

This could have been really good and fun to watch, with the right producer if he'd stuck tot he books. and told that story, not the one in his head or that his chiefs wanted to. This is what both the fans and the wider public would have liked.

The wheel of time has an appeal to it neither the Lord of the Rings or Game of Thrones could match if it was done well. and you would have wanted a show runner who'd have made the books even better, and space to add things.. yes there are ares Jordan could have improved or written more on, little gaps you can fill in too, in a way that enhances the story... but the best bit would be bringing the ambience in the various scenes of the books to life.

The characters are the most etnertaining, andthey ruined them al l by deviating htem off thier base.

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The thing is that as the books continue, it becomes increasingly clear that Aes Sedai SUCK as channelers. They are rigidly tradition bound and most of them don't actually have to use the One Power to a great extent given they are mostly political meddlers. Plus because they poorly collect wilders and have culled male channelers from their population, they have a very low average power level so many weaves are simply beyond their ability to use.

Nynaeve can freely use weaves most Sisters could never manage without burning themselves out. She has been channeling subconsciously in order to heal for years and she has never had the limitations of the Ajahs who for some reason have disregarded Earth and Fire from their healing weaves.

Another thing you can notice as the books progress is that there is clearly a Turning of the Wheel effect affecting channelers. More and more very powerful channelers seem to appear (with multiple channelers that are stronger than Nynaeve who is only really below Lanfear in the Power among women with at least three channelers who probably equal or surpass Lanfear herself). And we meet many channelers who have absolutely mastered a pet weave or prove extremely adept at specific Talents. It's possibly that much channeling lore is just supressed by Aes Sedai custom and multiple sisters in the Tower also have their own Talent that they have never shared with others like Verin does. Not to mention that the books consistently tell us how the Forsaken are often surprised by current Age innovations; the Warder bond, healing stilling, unraveling weaves are all surprises to them (and the last one absolutely terrifies them).

Don't get me wrong; Nynaeve IS OP. But she is not a Mary Sue. Rather, the Turning of the Age pretty much requires the Pattern to just spit out a lot of Heroes.

I remember that, although I concluded that Nynaeve was stronger than Tana (the sea folk girl) but not quite as strong as the Seanchan woman.. Although to be fair, Jordan compared Nynaeve as she was then tot he Seanchan woman.. basically it was not Nynaeve fully developed having reached her potential that is compared to the Seanchan woman. and tana 's max potential is what is compared to how powerful Nynaeve was at that time, not how powerful she would grow to.

I could be wrong, but i remember on my last read through paying particularly close attention to that.. I concluded that Nynaeve would probably be the most powerful of them once she had reached her max potential, which she was several years maybe a decade away from at the very least.

The confusion or riddle comes when talking about actual current strength now and potential, at first glance it would seem that Tana the sea folk apprentice, the seanchan Damane (forgotten her name) and the wise woman were more powerful, but I concluded Nynaeve would be stronger than them all at max potential. I need to double check on the seanchan woman if he said she would be more powerful than Nynaeve would ever be.. but I think it was she was stronger than Nynaeve was at the time, but not by much, which to me felt like when Nynaeve reached her potential she would be stronger.

Anyway, I do love how he handled and progressed the Aes Sedai - they first seem larger than life, then are cut down to size, but then lifted up again by what Egwene sets in motion and what Elyane and Nynaeve manage to achieve with the Sea folk and White Tower casters, and Egwene with the Aiel wise ones.


What would be interesting would be a book or another series set after the Last battle.

[Nymrohd]

I remember that, although I concluded that Nynaeve was stronger than Tana (the sea folk girl) but not quite as strong as the Seanchan woman.. Although to be fair, Jordan compared Nynaeve as she was then tot he Seanchan woman.. basically it was not Nynaeve fully developed having reached her potential that is compared to the Seanchan woman. and tana 's max potential is what is compared to how powerful Nynaeve was at that time, not how powerful she would grow to.

I could be wrong, but i remember on my last read through paying particularly close attention to that.. I concluded that Nynaeve would probably be the most powerful of them once she had reached her max potential, which she was several years maybe a decade away from at the very least.

The confusion or riddle comes when talking about actual current strength now and potential, at first glance it would seem that Tana the sea folk apprentice, the seanchan Damane (forgotten her name) and the wise woman were more powerful, but I concluded Nynaeve would be stronger than them all at max potential. I need to double check on the seanchan woman if he said she would be more powerful than Nynaeve would ever be.. but I think it was she was stronger than Nynaeve was at the time, but not by much, which to me felt like when Nynaeve reached her potential she would be stronger.

Anyway, I do love how he handled and progressed the Aes Sedai - they first seem larger than life, then are cut down to size, but then lifted up again by what Egwene sets in motion and what Elyane and Nynaeve manage to achieve with the Sea folk and White Tower casters, and Egwene with the Aiel wise ones.


What would be interesting would be a book or another series set after the Last battle.

Meh, I don't think Nynaeve would have much growth ahead of her. Aes Sedai take a long time to reach their full potential because they simply do not channel near their full capacity that often. Rand used Nynaeve as a conduit together with the Choeden Kal to sustain a Saidar tunnel that washed the ENTIRETY of Saidin through Shadar Logoth. You don't go further than that. Alivia probably is the strongest channeler of them all though. Nynaeve herself says she is much stronger than her and Lanfear also indicates that Alivia is probably stronger than she was at full power. There is also that grandma the Aes Sedai find while camped before they move against the White Tower.

Honestly the only thing that saves Aes Sedai for me is Egwene and Verin. They are ineffective bullies who have been the power in their area for so long that they are completely unprepared for the challenges ahead. It doesn't help that Elaida is just a power hungry moron and that the Black Ajah is vastly more effective than everyone else.

[Shadowferal]

The thing is that as the books continue, it becomes increasingly clear that Aes Sedai SUCK as channelers. They are rigidly tradition bound and most of them don't actually have to use the One Power to a great extent given they are mostly political meddlers.

If it weren't for Tower Law, Aes Sedai would be vilified as they were with Artur Hawkwing. We've seen how truly nasty the Forsaken can be, and how utterly ruthless Rand was.

[Mace]

Meh, I don't think Nynaeve would have much growth ahead of her. Aes Sedai take a long time to reach their full potential because they simply do not channel near their full capacity that often. Rand used Nynaeve as a conduit together with the Choeden Kal to sustain a Saidar tunnel that washed the ENTIRETY of Saidin through Shadar Logoth. You don't go further than that. Alivia probably is the strongest channeler of them all though. Nynaeve herself says she is much stronger than her and Lanfear also indicates that Alivia is probably stronger than she was at full power. There is also that grandma the Aes Sedai find while camped before they move against the White Tower.

Honestly the only thing that saves Aes Sedai for me is Egwene and Verin. They are ineffective bullies who have been the power in their area for so long that they are completely unprepared for the challenges ahead. It doesn't help that Elaida is just a power hungry moron and that the Black Ajah is vastly more effective than everyone else.

It's an interesting discussion, though the comparison with the seanchan woman and Tana as well as the wise woman are all made before that event. Yeh.. that Grandma AesSedai, is the wisewoman I'm talking about ,. And Nynaeve's comment is made about herself in the present too, not about her potential. I guess if you really like Nynaeve you could argue she might eventually grow stronger, but it is clear that at the time, Alivia is the strongest female channeler alive.

I liked Moiraine too, she does take the burnt of all the ire directed against Aes Sedai, a bit unfairly too, given how decent an Aes Sedai she eventually turns out to be. the white tower does sort of remind me of an English public boarding school. For anyone who's been to one, they'd know exactly what I mean. the whole culture of bullying and strength dominance. There is also an air of corporate sharks too. The manoeuvring for power on the corporate ladder within a company. it ins Daes Dae'mar and the Aes Sedai puppeteering that wheel of time gets to be a bit like Game of Thrones, but i much prefer WoTs tone and pace

[rhorle]

Don't get me wrong; Nynaeve IS OP. But she is not a Mary Sue. Rather, the Turning of the Age pretty much requires the Pattern to just spit out a lot of Heroes.

She might not be a a mary sue but sure sure does get no real explanation other then "old blood". It really is an unexplored story thread that just exists to explain why people have powers. Maybe we would have gotten one in the prequel sequels as one was going to cover why Tam went back to the Two Rivers and the time period before Moiraine arrived. Sadly we won't get those.

Though the White Tower prequel movie, not official canon, might see enough of attention that maybe Mr. Sanderson will be hired to write them.

[Pyrophax]

She might not be a a mary sue but sure sure does get no real explanation other then "old blood". It really is an unexplored story thread that just exists to explain why people have powers. Maybe we would have gotten one in the prequel sequels as one was going to cover why Tam went back to the Two Rivers and the time period before Moiraine arrived. Sadly we won't get those.

Though the White Tower prequel movie, not official canon, might see enough of attention that maybe Mr. Sanderson will be hired to write them.

Old blood is deus ex machina for Choosen Ones.
Same with Perrin, Mat and Egwene. Same with staff skills for two-riverans, and bow skills too.
Manetheren after all.

[Mace]

According to the book lore, who do you think are the most attractive women and men in the series?

imo for women:
1. Lanfear (original)
2. Aran'gar (Halima)
3. Egwene/Elayne
4. Aviendha/Nynaeve
5. Moiraine/Berelain
6. Min/ Graendal
7. Leane

The men are much harder to gauge. Obviously
1. Galad
2.Rahvin
3. Morridin
4. Aram - possibly

But Rand, Mat and Perrin are also there, possibly in the top 3 also. The thing is when it comes to the 3 boys, most of the story is told from their perspective, and the others are more like sisters to them so they don't necessarily comment on how attractive they are.. but there are enough hints in the narrative. for

1. Rand - is apparently very good looking. one part of the series actually states all the girls pine after him, but he was Egwenes, and several times in the story, before he becomes Dragon Reborn you do get the comments that he is very handsome.

2. Matt - Matt is also very good looking, and in a rascal gambler/ playboy way - one of those handsome men that ogle women all the time, quite a few times comments come from other women that Matt is quite good looking, but his rascally ways tend to put a lot of them off him, too much of a scoundrel. Yet Tylin and Tuon both fall him, and we know Berelain considered him also except she mutters "too much like me"

3. Perrin too. Though didn't get quite the same impression of the other two, maybe it's because he very early on got Faile attached to him, and then his yellow eyes, and big shoulders c
kinda make him scary too. But yes, Moiraine herself comments that he is an attractive man, and there is this thing going on between the 3 boys. Wil Al'Seen, who they remark is quite handsome seems to be the only boy in the two rivers that is able to compete with the 3 ta'veren, and he is described as very handsome too. As Rand is taken by Egwene, they aren't in competition and as Matt is too childish for most of the girls because of his tricks, it's not because of his looks. Perrin is the hardest one to place though.

I think being bigger than most boys makes him more niche.. it's hard to say. It's far easier to compare the women than it is the men.

The is also the Lord , the heir of House Riatin that Padan Fain uses for a while that is described as quite good looking, and we know the Damodreds are quite attractive... Moiraine is described as very pretty, and Taringail Damodred was quite handsome, and off course Galad too

[Pyrophax]

According to the book lore, who do you think are the most attractive women and men in the series?

imo for women:
1. Lanfear (original)
2. Aran'gar (Halima)
3. Egwene/Elayne
4. Aviendha/Nynaeve
5. Moiraine/Berelain
6. Min/ Graendal
7. Leane

The men are much harder to gauge. Obviously
1. Galad
2.Rahvin
3. Morridin
4. Aram - possibly

But Rand, Mat and Perrin are also there, possibly in the top 3 also. The thing is when it comes to the 3 boys, most of the story is told from their perspective, and the others are more like sisters to them so they don't necessarily comment on how attractive they are.. but there are enough hints in the narrative. for

1. Rand - is apparently very good looking. one part of the series actually states all the girls pine after him, but he was Egwenes, and several times in the story, before he becomes Dragon Reborn you do get the comments that he is very handsome.

2. Matt - Matt is also very good looking, and in a rascal gambler/ playboy way - one of those handsome men that ogle women all the time, quite a few times comments come from other women that Matt is quite good looking, but his rascally ways tend to put a lot of them off him, too much of a scoundrel. Yet Tylin and Tuon both fall him, and we know Berelain considered him also except she mutters "too much like me"

3. Perrin too. Though didn't get quite the same impression of the other two, maybe it's because he very early on got Faile attached to him, and then his yellow eyes, and big shoulders c
kinda make him scary too. But yes, Moiraine herself comments that he is an attractive man, and there is this thing going on between the 3 boys. Wil Al'Seen, who they remark is quite handsome seems to be the only boy in the two rivers that is able to compete with the 3 ta'veren, and he is described as very handsome too. As Rand is taken by Egwene, they aren't in competition and as Matt is too childish for most of the girls because of his tricks, it's not because of his looks. Perrin is the hardest one to place though.

I think being bigger than most boys makes him more niche.. it's hard to say. It's far easier to compare the women than it is the men.

The is also the Lord , the heir of House Riatin that Padan Fain uses for a while that is described as quite good looking, and we know the Damodreds are quite attractive... Moiraine is described as very pretty, and Taringail Damodred was quite handsome, and off course Galad too

Berelain must be higher, Egwene/Elayne lower.

And offcouse - mostly opinions. Some people likes short hair, some long, some braids or pig-tails.
Some likes black skin, so Shonchans or Sharans will be superior.
My top, according to my understanding are:
1. Lanfear/Berelain
2. Aran'gar (it a trap, mind you)
3. Elayne/Aviendha
4. Nynaeve/Egwene/Leane
5. Others

And I really cant speak about man attractiveness. Never find fellow dick-having folks attractive.

[Nymrohd]

Same with staff skills for two-riverans, and bow skills too.

Meh, that part is normal. Having a region be very skilled in specific weapons is just reality; small areas that had poor patrolling depended on local militia and most people would follow drills regularly from a relatively young age. Everyone in two rivers was supposed to be able to stand to a bandit or help with hunting meat because Andor did not give a shit about them.

[Mace]

Meh, that part is normal. Having a region be very skilled in specific weapons is just reality; small areas that had poor patrolling depended on local militia and most people would follow drills regularly from a relatively young age. Everyone in two rivers was supposed to be able to stand to a bandit or help with hunting meat because Andor did not give a shit about them.

Not to mention wolves. Then tehre is also the traditions. They were descended from Manetheren, who were incredibly skilled fighters, seems like the best in the world out of the 10 nations...the Bel tine competitions, races, etc would have also contributed. Though famrers they would have had an aptitutde for fighing.


The old blood ran strong in Manetheren. Not to mention, TAm who leavs o se the world is able to rise o the rank of Blade MAster, woudln't be surpried if he was a direct descendant of King Aemon

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Berelain must be higher, Egwene/Elayne lower.

And offcouse - mostly opinions. Some people likes short hair, some long, some braids or pig-tails.
Some likes black skin, so Shonchans or Sharans will be superior.
My top, according to my understanding are:
1. Lanfear/Berelain
2. Aran'gar (it a trap, mind you)
3. Elayne/Aviendha
4. Nynaeve/Egwene/Leane
5. Others

And I really cant speak about man attractiveness. Never find fellow dick-having folks attractive.

Well I went entirely off the book descriptions and opinions from the characters about them. The more comments and superlatives used for a person's appearance determines their ranking. But I wouldn't have put Berelain on par with Lanfear, Lanfear always leaves other women in the dust.

Image of Lanfear by Kurt Malloux using AI to generate

[Lorgar Aurelian]

You read the books recently?

Finished the second book a couple weeks before season 2 came out, I’m on book 8 now and will finish it this week.

[Mace]

Finished the second book a couple weeks before season 2 came out, I’m on book 8 now and will finish it this week.

So much better right? The actors are the only thing I really like about the show, they do well enough iom. and while there are some exciting enough scenes in the show, it's overall too disappointing to appreciate them. They turned an A-lister product to some CW network cheese fest gaudy and super cliched.. with little charm. If I were to do the show I think I would keep all the cast, but some roles would be changed.

Lanfear/Selene, Egwene, Perrin, Siuan Sanche, Moiraine, Alanna - but they'll be in different roles. would all be done by different . however if i had a much higher budget, Rand is probably the only actor I would keep in his role. I would pick Season 2 Matt over Season 1, not because S1 Matt was bad, he did his job quite well it's just that S2 Matt is more like book Matt

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The thing is that as the books continue, it becomes increasingly clear that Aes Sedai SUCK as channelers. They are rigidly tradition bound and most of them don't actually have to use the One Power to a great extent given they are mostly political meddlers. Plus because they poorly collect wilders and have culled male channelers from their population, they have a very low average power level so many weaves are simply beyond their ability to use.

ya the Aes Sedai suck but book 2 Nynaeve is still pretty ridiculous in the broader context of the series.

Like figuring out a A'dam out of no where when she’s not even the one who has a feel for angreal later and the Seanchan not even knowing it was possible dispute working with them for thousands of years. Out channeling the Seanchan and escaping even though capturing channellers is like there whole thing and she had like no experience. Channeling in the arch’s fine when it’s suppose to burn you out and the way that is suppose to come only once coming twice for her (Mabye addressed in later book don’t remember).

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So much better right?

For book 1-5 I’d say undoudtly so, book 6-8 I honestly don’t see how they could do much worse they feel like hours and hours (audio books) of wasted time that could have been condensed into a single book easily.

But I doubt the show will get to 6-8.

[Nymrohd]

ya the Aes Sedai suck but book 2 Nynaeve is still pretty ridiculous in the broader context of the series.

Like figuring out a A'dam out of no where when she’s not even the one who has a feel for angreal later and the Seanchan not even knowing it was possible dispute working with them for thousands of years. Out channeling the Seanchan and escaping even though capturing channellers is like there whole thing and she had like no experience. Channeling in the arch’s fine when it’s suppose to burn you out and the way that is suppose to come only once coming twice for her (Mabye addressed in later book don’t remember).

The channeling in the Arch is explained; Nynaeve is old for an initiate. She has subconsciously been channeling for a decent amount of time. As for it being supposed to burn you out; the Aes Sedai don't have a single clue what that arch is actually doing (neither do the wise ones). They are using a ter'angreal relic without any knowledge of its initial purpose simply out of tradition. So their analysis on it has to be taken with a grain of salt.

I am not really sure about the A'dam. I mean opening it is simply a matter of figuring out where to press. If you see another person do it you should be able to replicate it pretty easily.

And the Seanchan are not exactly trained in capturing extraordinarily powerful channelers who are capable of resisting; they are trained in capturing village girls who have been taught since birth that if they have the spark they are not even human. The damane do know how to fight each other and can throw a shield but no damane would ever be able to shield Nynaeve without an angreal; you must be significantly stronger to shield someone who is holding the power.

[Mace]

ya the Aes Sedai suck but book 2 Nynaeve is still pretty ridiculous in the broader context of the series.

Like figuring out a A'dam out of no where when she’s not even the one who has a feel for angreal later and the Seanchan not even knowing it was possible dispute working with them for thousands of years. Out channeling the Seanchan and escaping even though capturing channellers is like there whole thing and she had like no experience. Channeling in the arch’s fine when it’s suppose to burn you out and the way that is suppose to come only once coming twice for her (Mabye addressed in later book don’t remember).

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For book 1-5 I’d say undoudtly so, book 6-8 I honestly don’t see how they could do much worse they feel like hours and hours (audio books) of wasted time that could have been condensed into a single book easily.

But I doubt the show will get to 6-8.

Yes, from book 7 onwards, could be condensed, a lot of it is descriptions and details, slowing down the progression of time. Makes the latter books a lot easier to do.

You can go from 1 book per season up to book 6, but from then on several of the books can be done in one season. It's hard to see how many seasons it would take, i would estimate 10, instead of 14.

But if they were to do a book per season all the way to the end, it would allow a lot of depth and extra stuff not written, filling out more roles and behind the scenes activities. Would be interesting. But for something like that you would definitely need Brandon Sanderson writing those fillers. THe current show runners and this current show could never do something like that.

[Nymrohd]

For book 1-5 I’d say undoudtly so, book 6-8 I honestly don’t see how they could do much worse they feel like hours and hours (audio books) of wasted time that could have been condensed into a single book easily.

But I doubt the show will get to 6-8.

If they ever got there, it would be the point where a competent rewrite would very much suggest cutting some content (and possibly extending content later on).

And then the final book would take a full season (that is a 24 episode one). There is not a single scene you could skip in that book and it is LONG.

[Mace]

Berelain must be higher, Egwene/Elayne lower.

And offcouse - mostly opinions. Some people likes short hair, some long, some braids or pig-tails.
Some likes black skin, so Shonchans or Sharans will be superior.
My top, according to my understanding are:
1. Lanfear/Berelain
2. Aran'gar (it a trap, mind you)
3. Elayne/Aviendha
4. Nynaeve/Egwene/Leane
5. Others

And I really cant speak about man attractiveness. Never find fellow dick-having folks attractive.

Min should be right up there, she is very pretty, it's a litter harder to gauge with her, but when she dresses up in book 4, Elmindreda is considered a VERY pretty girl

Forgot to add Thom Merillin for men. I mean the guy is ancient but he has a gorgeous Queen fall for him, as well as many pretty and beautiful young women, he may be old but he would be considered both handsome and sexy by them if i have judged correctly. Also Moiraine fancies him.