1. #4341
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    Where it was stated?
    https://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1084#61 Brandon Sanderson
    I'd say that at this point, it's less a matter of who is stronger, and more a matter of what they're doing. Perrin could probably win a fight, but his raw knowledge and understanding is less—he works on instinct.

    https://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1025#3
    I wanted to highlight Perrin's instinctive use of his powers, as a contrast to the thoughtful, learned use of power represented by Egwene. People have asked if I think Perrin is better at Tel'aran'rhiod than Egwene. I don't think he is, the balefire-bending scene notwithstanding. They represent two sides of a coin, instinct and learning. In some cases Perrin will be more capable, and in others Egwene will shine.


    - - - Updated - - -

    Nielsen reports 531 million mins streamed for 9/18 to 9/24. That is more then the Season 2 premiere (515) so it is looking good as long as the final two episodes stay strong.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  2. #4342
    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    thanks for your passionate answer!
    you made me more curious about the books with one post than the whole two seasons did...

    but Lorgar Aurelian's answer still scares me
    I mean, Egwene has been suffering a lot because of the collar, and what does she do? she still tries to take it off or attack her master... I hope in the books something this stupid doesn't take place
    In the books she has a single stray thought about hitting her leash holder with her water dish and can't use it for days. The books actually make sense unlike the train wreck that is rafe of time.

  3. #4343
    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    Where it was stated? When I was reading, I remember that Perrin taught Egwene about balefire, its just a weave.
    She is nowhere equal to him. She cant teleport there at will, she cant bend balefire, she cant use dream like Perrin do. And what greater knowledge she poses? Only some experience of Wise ones that again were self-educated. While Perrin has knowledge of all generations of wolfes. Same with understanding, she just pretending, while Perrin is pro at that.


    I think Sanderson just buff him to be his last battle so he can be cool and powerful. Same as Mat and his mist powers at last battle.
    Rule of cool. And it was cool.
    I think Rhorle has been feedback way more distortions from the show into his memory of the books.

    Perrin eventually far exceeded Egwene with the dream.

    Maybe Egwene could eventually learn those things but we see Hopper able to spy even on Lanfear and he trains Perrin. Perrin is doing more in the dream if you note the description before Egwene even learns about it.

    For starters he is already able to sleep himself into Telarab’rhiod before Egwene even gets the dream ter’angreal.

    And by the end of the series, Perrin’s ability on the dream is phenomenal especially in the fight against Isam without which Rand would have lost.

    His major value as Ta’veren, his special power via the wolves is the dream more so than merely being able to talk to wolves and have yellow eyes.


    What is interesting is that Kordan doesn’t even clarify whether Perrin or Matt could learn to channel. They have sufficient powers though to not require the process. Neither of them are trained to use the void which is the first stepping stone in learning for males who have the natural ability or can learn.

    I always wandered. It would a fascinating twist if both could actually learn to channel if anyone write a story following the events of the books.

    The show lost all the charm of the books. You really get into the world in the books. The setting and times feel and sound so believable even down to all those wise sayings from Linni or Master Luhan or Tam or Abel Cauthon etc etc the heroes remember.

    They wiped away so much good stuff. Rather than enhance it. What a waste

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    So much character lost. Matt and Nynaeve are two of the best characters the way they and their personalities are written.

    Ruined them. Nynaeve is some obnoxious Mary Sue that can do no wrong and Matt comes off as a low life with zero humour or character.


    Utterly failed at bringing the book characters to life. But off course they did, since they re wrote them with these bland cookie cutter characters with zero charm

  4. #4344
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    I think Rhorle has been feedback way more distortions from the show into his memory of the books.
    You can disagree with the words of an author of the book. Just say so. There is no reason to claim I'm distorting the books though.

    The Ta'veren power Perrin has is need. That is one of the things that makes him stronger in the dream. The ability to draw whatever he needs to him. Perrin being a wolf brother is a trait of his soul. It isn't because he is Ta'veren which is fleeting and only happens when the pattern needs one.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  5. #4345
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    You can disagree with the words of an author of the book. Just say so. There is no reason to claim I'm distorting the books though.

    The Ta'veren power Perrin has is need. That is one of the things that makes him stronger in the dream. The ability to draw whatever he needs to him. Perrin being a wolf brother is a trait of his soul. It isn't because he is Ta'veren which is fleeting and only happens when the pattern needs one.
    Jordan is the author, not Sanderson, Sanderson is giving his opinion. Perrin at the time of the last battle is head and shoulders above Egwene for the use of the dream.

    I just can't see anyone being better.. Isam out Tel'aran rhiod's LAnfear, and Perrin bests him in the dream by the end... sorry, Egwene is good witht he dream, but he ends up above her.

  6. #4346
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Jordan is the author, not Sanderson, Sanderson is giving his opinion. Perrin at the time of the last battle is head and shoulders above Egwene for the use of the dream.
    So you don't consider the last three or four books to be official then? Mr. Sanderson is as much an author of Wheel of Time as Mr. Jordan is. I'd trust someone that has access to all the notes and supplemental information over a random forum goer. Wouldn't you?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  7. #4347
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So you don't consider the last three or four books to be official then? Mr. Sanderson is as much an author of Wheel of Time as Mr. Jordan is. I'd trust someone that has access to all the notes and supplemental information over a random forum goer. Wouldn't you?
    lol.. do you even understand what Sanderson did? he didn't invent the lore or write the abilities of the characters, he completed Jordan's work, fleshing out the story from the notes Jordan gave him. His work is canon, but he didn't write the story. Jordan did. This is why he can only give an opinion.

    if we argue about a characters strengths, and you can't correctly discern from the book, Jordan is the only one who has the authority to confirm this. Th
    Last edited by Mace; 2023-10-21 at 03:17 PM.

  8. #4348
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    lol.. do you even understand what Sanderson did? he didn't invent the lore or write the abilities of the characters, he completed Jordan's work, fleshing out the story from the notes Jordan gave him. His work is canon, but he didn't write the story.
    So he completed the work but didn't write the stuff he completed? Lmao.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    if we argue about a characters strengths, and you can't correctly discern from the book, Jordan is the only one who has the authority to confirm this. Th
    So the notes Mr. Sanderson has can't tell him if characters have equal strength?
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  9. #4349
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    I think Rhorle has been feedback way more distortions from the show into his memory of the books.
    I'm willing to bet he's never even read the books. He is continually an apologist for piss poor adaptations that entirely misrepresent the characters as they were written by their authors, whether it be WoT or even that tire fire Rings of Power show.

  10. #4350
    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    I'm willing to bet he's never even read the books. He is continually an apologist for piss poor adaptations that entirely misrepresent the characters as they were written by their authors, whether it be WoT or even that tire fire Rings of Power show.
    I'm amazed you all still respond to that troll. Doesn't 90% of the forums have him on ignore?

    He is one of many of the "support current thing" and yell obscenities at people who don't "support current thing".

    I see some of his nonsense when you all quote him, nothing has changed. Don't fight in the mud with a pig, you both get dirty, but only the pig likes it.

  11. #4351
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Ruined them. Nynaeve is some obnoxious Mary Sue that can do no wrong
    Are you talking about book or show Nynave here because she’s way less of a Mary Sue in the show where she, isn’t the one who channels them to freedom when they first meet the Seanchan, doesn’t figure out how to open an A'dam out of no where, her plan to free Egwene fails, can’t heal Elyane, gets that one Aes Sedai captured and her warder killed by not being about to control her channeling, ect.

    If any thing they took what is effectively a Mary Sue in the books and turned it on its head making her overly useless.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2023-10-21 at 05:41 PM.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  12. #4352
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Are you talking about book or show Nynave here because she’s way less of a Mary Sue in the show where she, isn’t the one who channels them to freedom when they first meet the Seanchan, doesn’t figure out how to open an A'dam out of no where, her plan to free Egwene fails, can’t heal Elyane, gets that one Aes Sedai captured and her warder killed by not being about to control her channeling, ect.

    If any thing they took what is effectively a Mary Sue in the books and turned it on its head making her overly useless.
    They didn't change her from the books, they changed her from season 1. She was never a mary sue in the books. She has lots of flaws, and while powerful, her power levels aren't inflated, like they are in the show

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So he completed the work but didn't write the stuff he completed? Lmao.



    So the notes Mr. Sanderson has can't tell him if characters have equal strength?
    Consider this, if they did say such a thing, why does he use language that expresses opinion rather than fact? Think about that.

  13. #4353
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    They didn't change her from the books, they changed her from season 1. She was never a mary sue in the books. She has lots of flaws, and while powerful, her power levels aren't inflated, like they are in the show
    Well she is changed from The books because she fails at like every thing unlike in the second book where every thing works out for her.

    But your right she is toned down compared to the first season where they give her random feats for no real reason.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  14. #4354
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Consider this, if they did say such a thing, why does he use language that expresses opinion rather than fact? Think about that.
    He doesn't just speak from personal opinion though. He directly talks about how and why he wrote scenes for Perrin a certain way. That is speaking as the author rather then a fan. One of the quotes I provided comes from his retrospective series about taking over for Mr. Jordan and the books he wrote.

    https://www.brandonsanderson.com/tag...retrospective/
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  15. #4355
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Well she is changed from The books because she fails at like every thing unlike in the second book where every thing works out for her.

    But your right she is toned down compared to the first season where they give her random feats for no real reason.
    She can't channel unless she is furious until that block is dealt with in an extremely unpleasant way she was absolutely not a mary sue in the books

  16. #4356
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    She can't channel unless she is furious until that block is dealt with in an extremely unpleasant way she was absolutely not a mary sue in the books
    In theory that is true, in practice in the second book when ever she would need to channel she can channel and it’s not a block at all, and then of course without said block she solves all the problems she faces in the book one upping channellers who have years more experience then her rather they be white tower sisters or trained damane.

    So while she might not be a Mary Sue for the series in general id say in the second book that’s a very fine line she’s teetering on.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2023-10-23 at 02:29 AM.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  17. #4357
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    In theory that is true, in practice in the second book when ever she would need to channel she can channel and it’s not a block at all, and then of course without said block she solves all the problems she faces in the book one upping channellers who have years more experience then her rather they be white tower sisters or trained damane.

    So while she might not be a Mary Sue for the series in general id say in the second book that’s a very fine line she’s teetering on.
    The thing is that as the books continue, it becomes increasingly clear that Aes Sedai SUCK as channelers. They are rigidly tradition bound and most of them don't actually have to use the One Power to a great extent given they are mostly political meddlers. Plus because they poorly collect wilders and have culled male channelers from their population, they have a very low average power level so many weaves are simply beyond their ability to use.

    Nynaeve can freely use weaves most Sisters could never manage without burning themselves out. She has been channeling subconsciously in order to heal for years and she has never had the limitations of the Ajahs who for some reason have disregarded Earth and Fire from their healing weaves.

    Another thing you can notice as the books progress is that there is clearly a Turning of the Wheel effect affecting channelers. More and more very powerful channelers seem to appear (with multiple channelers that are stronger than Nynaeve who is only really below Lanfear in the Power among women with at least three channelers who probably equal or surpass Lanfear herself). And we meet many channelers who have absolutely mastered a pet weave or prove extremely adept at specific Talents. It's possibly that much channeling lore is just supressed by Aes Sedai custom and multiple sisters in the Tower also have their own Talent that they have never shared with others like Verin does. Not to mention that the books consistently tell us how the Forsaken are often surprised by current Age innovations; the Warder bond, healing stilling, unraveling weaves are all surprises to them (and the last one absolutely terrifies them).

    Don't get me wrong; Nynaeve IS OP. But she is not a Mary Sue. Rather, the Turning of the Age pretty much requires the Pattern to just spit out a lot of Heroes.

  18. #4358
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    In theory that is true, in practice in the second book when ever she would need to channel she can channel and it’s not a block at all, and then of course without said block she solves all the problems she faces in the book one upping channellers who have years more experience then her rather they be white tower sisters or trained damane.

    So while she might not be a Mary Sue for the series in general id say in the second book that’s a very fine line she’s teetering on.
    You read the books recently?

    I'm going through them again.. really enjoying them. The dialogues, the fantasy, the mystery (Even knowing full well what happens now), the key moments.

    None of them in the show.. the charm and sass bled all out. I just found myself laughing out loud when Matt ta interacts with Berelain, and the way Jordan writes it.

    This could have been really good and fun to watch, with the right producer if he'd stuck tot he books. and told that story, not the one in his head or that his chiefs wanted to. This is what both the fans and the wider public would have liked.

    The wheel of time has an appeal to it neither the Lord of the Rings or Game of Thrones could match if it was done well. and you would have wanted a show runner who'd have made the books even better, and space to add things.. yes there are ares Jordan could have improved or written more on, little gaps you can fill in too, in a way that enhances the story... but the best bit would be bringing the ambience in the various scenes of the books to life.

    The characters are the most etnertaining, andthey ruined them al l by deviating htem off thier base.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    The thing is that as the books continue, it becomes increasingly clear that Aes Sedai SUCK as channelers. They are rigidly tradition bound and most of them don't actually have to use the One Power to a great extent given they are mostly political meddlers. Plus because they poorly collect wilders and have culled male channelers from their population, they have a very low average power level so many weaves are simply beyond their ability to use.

    Nynaeve can freely use weaves most Sisters could never manage without burning themselves out. She has been channeling subconsciously in order to heal for years and she has never had the limitations of the Ajahs who for some reason have disregarded Earth and Fire from their healing weaves.

    Another thing you can notice as the books progress is that there is clearly a Turning of the Wheel effect affecting channelers. More and more very powerful channelers seem to appear (with multiple channelers that are stronger than Nynaeve who is only really below Lanfear in the Power among women with at least three channelers who probably equal or surpass Lanfear herself). And we meet many channelers who have absolutely mastered a pet weave or prove extremely adept at specific Talents. It's possibly that much channeling lore is just supressed by Aes Sedai custom and multiple sisters in the Tower also have their own Talent that they have never shared with others like Verin does. Not to mention that the books consistently tell us how the Forsaken are often surprised by current Age innovations; the Warder bond, healing stilling, unraveling weaves are all surprises to them (and the last one absolutely terrifies them).

    Don't get me wrong; Nynaeve IS OP. But she is not a Mary Sue. Rather, the Turning of the Age pretty much requires the Pattern to just spit out a lot of Heroes.
    I remember that, although I concluded that Nynaeve was stronger than Tana (the sea folk girl) but not quite as strong as the Seanchan woman.. Although to be fair, Jordan compared Nynaeve as she was then tot he Seanchan woman.. basically it was not Nynaeve fully developed having reached her potential that is compared to the Seanchan woman. and tana 's max potential is what is compared to how powerful Nynaeve was at that time, not how powerful she would grow to.

    I could be wrong, but i remember on my last read through paying particularly close attention to that.. I concluded that Nynaeve would probably be the most powerful of them once she had reached her max potential, which she was several years maybe a decade away from at the very least.

    The confusion or riddle comes when talking about actual current strength now and potential, at first glance it would seem that Tana the sea folk apprentice, the seanchan Damane (forgotten her name) and the wise woman were more powerful, but I concluded Nynaeve would be stronger than them all at max potential. I need to double check on the seanchan woman if he said she would be more powerful than Nynaeve would ever be.. but I think it was she was stronger than Nynaeve was at the time, but not by much, which to me felt like when Nynaeve reached her potential she would be stronger.

    Anyway, I do love how he handled and progressed the Aes Sedai - they first seem larger than life, then are cut down to size, but then lifted up again by what Egwene sets in motion and what Elyane and Nynaeve manage to achieve with the Sea folk and White Tower casters, and Egwene with the Aiel wise ones.


    What would be interesting would be a book or another series set after the Last battle.

  19. #4359
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    I remember that, although I concluded that Nynaeve was stronger than Tana (the sea folk girl) but not quite as strong as the Seanchan woman.. Although to be fair, Jordan compared Nynaeve as she was then tot he Seanchan woman.. basically it was not Nynaeve fully developed having reached her potential that is compared to the Seanchan woman. and tana 's max potential is what is compared to how powerful Nynaeve was at that time, not how powerful she would grow to.

    I could be wrong, but i remember on my last read through paying particularly close attention to that.. I concluded that Nynaeve would probably be the most powerful of them once she had reached her max potential, which she was several years maybe a decade away from at the very least.

    The confusion or riddle comes when talking about actual current strength now and potential, at first glance it would seem that Tana the sea folk apprentice, the seanchan Damane (forgotten her name) and the wise woman were more powerful, but I concluded Nynaeve would be stronger than them all at max potential. I need to double check on the seanchan woman if he said she would be more powerful than Nynaeve would ever be.. but I think it was she was stronger than Nynaeve was at the time, but not by much, which to me felt like when Nynaeve reached her potential she would be stronger.

    Anyway, I do love how he handled and progressed the Aes Sedai - they first seem larger than life, then are cut down to size, but then lifted up again by what Egwene sets in motion and what Elyane and Nynaeve manage to achieve with the Sea folk and White Tower casters, and Egwene with the Aiel wise ones.


    What would be interesting would be a book or another series set after the Last battle.
    Meh, I don't think Nynaeve would have much growth ahead of her. Aes Sedai take a long time to reach their full potential because they simply do not channel near their full capacity that often. Rand used Nynaeve as a conduit together with the Choeden Kal to sustain a Saidar tunnel that washed the ENTIRETY of Saidin through Shadar Logoth. You don't go further than that. Alivia probably is the strongest channeler of them all though. Nynaeve herself says she is much stronger than her and Lanfear also indicates that Alivia is probably stronger than she was at full power. There is also that grandma the Aes Sedai find while camped before they move against the White Tower.

    Honestly the only thing that saves Aes Sedai for me is Egwene and Verin. They are ineffective bullies who have been the power in their area for so long that they are completely unprepared for the challenges ahead. It doesn't help that Elaida is just a power hungry moron and that the Black Ajah is vastly more effective than everyone else.
    Last edited by Nymrohd; 2023-10-24 at 10:46 AM.

  20. #4360
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    The thing is that as the books continue, it becomes increasingly clear that Aes Sedai SUCK as channelers. They are rigidly tradition bound and most of them don't actually have to use the One Power to a great extent given they are mostly political meddlers.
    If it weren't for Tower Law, Aes Sedai would be vilified as they were with Artur Hawkwing. We've seen how truly nasty the Forsaken can be, and how utterly ruthless Rand was.

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