[TV] The Wheel of Time

[rhorle]

Really who Evers idea it was for 8 episode seasons must have been just such a massive fool.

We might see that standard change now that most streaming platforms, including Amazon, are having plans with ads. The more episodes a show has the more ads they can sell. Part of me feels that is why Amazon ended Bosch to spin of Bosch: Legacy on their ad-supported Freevee streaming service.

If they do extend episode counts hopefully they don't fall into the trap of filler episodes that exist just to meet an episode count or reduce costs. With only 8 there is less of a chance of a filler happening.

[Koriani]

According to the book lore, who do you think are the most attractive women and men in the series?

I've never given two shits when reading the books, about this. It sounds like a question for a discussion with pre-teen girls (Or one to setup how the show fails...cuz Mace...).

And I say that as a cis-gendered, straight, female.

[Mace]

I've never given two shits when reading the books, about this. It sounds like a question for a discussion with pre-teen girls (Or one to setup how the show fails...cuz Mace...).

And I say that as a cis-gendered, straight, female.

I assure you, fully grown adult, males - gay or straight can be interested in this too. I haven't talked about how the show fails because of this.

[Gumble]

I assure you, fully grown adult, males - gay or straight can be interested in this too. I haven't talked about how the show fails because of this.

Also not a teen girl, though I absolutely HAVE talked about how the people they cast for these roles are absolute gutter garbage as far as attractive actors go.

It is downright embarrassing that they have people that would be mid in the midwest playing characters that are supposed to be insanely attractive.

Who would have thought the phrase "the CW could have done it better" would be applied to something made by a company with effectively unlimited money.




As far as your question, I'm relatively sure you have

Galad, Lanfear, Berelain at the top, as they are described by nearly everyone as stunningly beautiful. 10/10

Elayne, Halima, Aram, Wil al'Seen as being commented on by people who are not romantically interested in them as being very attractive. 9/10

Egwene, Aviendha, Min, Rand, Matt, Perrin, Rahvin, Gawyn, many others - people who are classically attractive as described by the author, but rarely have people who are not romantically linked to them comment on their attractiveness. People may say they are handsome or pretty, but they seem to be the more 8/10s

Nynaeve, Lan, many others - I would call these the range of people who are not classically attractive, having some sort of look that isn't your basic level of beauty. They are often very attractive to the person who is romantically linked to them, but they do not stand out compared to the ones above. They are certainly not ugly, but they are rarely commented on for their beauty.

[Mace]

Also not a teen girl, though I absolutely HAVE talked about how the people they cast for these roles are absolute gutter garbage as far as attractive actors go.

It is downright embarrassing that they have people that would be mid in the midwest playing characters that are supposed to be insanely attractive.

Who would have thought the phrase "the CW could have done it better" would be applied to something made by a company with effectively unlimited money.

@Koriani There you go. And he is allowed to have an opinion I've been reading the books again, and boy how incredible it could have been if they followed the books.. the majority of those actors would never have been kept in those roles. I think only Rand Mat would have been. Rosamund Pike is too old and too tall to play Moiraine, and did you see Alanna?

But if they had a bigger budget and more competent showrunners, face it, this could have looked very different.

But yes, many of them were not attractive enough for the way the book described them. Jordan really wrote this with Hollywood in mind casting attractive people for all the roles.. I bet he didn't bargain the movie to be done in the woke era where you can't have only attractive people.. but then there are so many people in the scenes, plenty of room for less attractive people..but without a doubt the main 5 are suppose to be extremely good looing, most of the Ae Sedai mentioned are attractive looking, not all are beautiful, but when they say beautiful you expect it, handsome is handsome (think Siuan and Elaida).

[rhorle]

Who would have thought the phrase "the CW could have done it better" would be applied to something made by a company with effectively unlimited money.

Sony has unlimited money?

[Mace]

Bookverse - could Mat and Perrin actually learn to use the power?

You know I don't ever recall the books saying they were tested for it, or saying they could not. - igven they are ancient Manetheren stock, I would wager the chances are high.

obviously during the events of the saga neither would want to go near Saidin, but what about after - it would be interesting to pay around with the idea that Perrin and Mat could actually learn.

Also sometimes it takes longer to manifest in men. I don't remember Perrin or Matt ever using the Flame and the void, which could potentially lead to them discovering they could learn.

Showverse - do you reckon the show would change this about them?

[Flurryfang]

He is a bard. He doesn't need to look good.

Looking good and having style are very different things. Thom is old in the books and defiantly not someone all the girls were wooing after, but he has very specific style, charm and performance in the way he acted. His job was not just be a musician or storyteller, but to be liked and enjoyed, so that is invited back/allowed back in.

And that is not even looking into the fact, that he is a very efficient spymaster, which is also something where you need to be very intentional about how you look.

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Bookverse - could Mat and Perrin actually learn to use the power?

You know I don't ever recall the books saying they were tested for it, or saying they could not. - igven they are ancient Manetheren stock, I would wager the chances are high.

obviously during the events of the saga neither would want to go near Saidin, but what about after - it would be interesting to pay around with the idea that Perrin and Mat could actually learn.

Also sometimes it takes longer to manifest in men. I don't remember Perrin or Matt ever using the Flame and the void, which could potentially lead to them discovering they could learn.

Showverse - do you reckon the show would change this about them?

In the books, they do put it out, that if you have the one power as a male, you kinda know have a feeling about it before you get too old. Many of the people, who are tested by the black tower, seem to go into it, well knowing that they are proberly different than other people. We even hear a lot of stories about the men having done magic before coming to the tower, but being too afraid to say anything about it.

I would be very surprised if Matt or Perrin would have been able to hide/not notice, that they could channel, when they were around so many channel users. They are both very open about what they experience and how they think about things, in the books, so if one of them could channel, it would have come out of nowhere.

When it comes to the show, it would be a stupid move, but i don't find it impossible for them to give Matt some power..... It would completly take the spotlight away from Rand, as the male power user in the group, and ruin his journey of learning the one power....But then again, the show might not care that much about it.

[Pyrophax]

Bookverse - could Mat and Perrin actually learn to use the power?

I think - they would have already shown that. Like Rand and his usage it 1-2 books.
Their power is more of the world, not one power.
Like Mat's power is luck - that is nothing to do with Saidin. Maybe some aspect of ta'varen at maximum? Not changing weather like Rand, not pulling other people to him. But oneaspect - luck - is turned on maximum capability.
Wolfbrother was explained in book 2, I think? His power also not from Saidin or one source at all. And if he would be stilled - nothing happens. Maybe there is another sources of powers? Like we know that main "magic" comes from One Source, that consist 2 parts as Korean simbol (forgot name). But there is True source - power from Dark One.
So it is logical to suspect that there can be more? Tel'Aran'Riod as example can be that another source. Some power that Rand after MoL have - too not coming from Saidin, and its not Dream power either. Some world's power?

[Shadowferal]

Bookverse - could Mat and Perrin actually learn to use the power?

Mat gradually understands how his luck works. And I don't believe he'd want anything to do with the One Power but wanting such is just crazy talk in his opinion.
Perrin seemed fairly dismissive of balefire being used in the Dream. But while I don't believe he's capable of learning the One Power, I don't think he'd shun the learning if he could have a "tool" that could be beneficial to those around him.

[Nymrohd]

Bookverse - could Mat and Perrin actually learn to use the power?

They were never tested and after a point saidin is clean so sure, they might be. It would be a very bad idea for Mat given where he is likely to live. Perrin doesn't need it?

[Mace]

Looking good and having style are very different things. Thom is old in the books and defiantly not someone all the girls were wooing after, but he has very specific style, charm and performance in the way he acted. His job was not just be a musician or storyteller, but to be liked and enjoyed, so that is invited back/allowed back in.

And that is not even looking into the fact, that he is a very efficient spymaster, which is also something where you need to be very intentional about how you look.

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In the books, they do put it out, that if you have the one power as a male, you kinda know have a feeling about it before you get too old. Many of the people, who are tested by the black tower, seem to go into it, well knowing that they are proberly different than other people. We even hear a lot of stories about the men having done magic before coming to the tower, but being too afraid to say anything about it.

I would be very surprised if Matt or Perrin would have been able to hide/not notice, that they could channel, when they were around so many channel users. They are both very open about what they experience and how they think about things, in the books, so if one of them could channel, it would have come out of nowhere.

When it comes to the show, it would be a stupid move, but i don't find it impossible for them to give Matt some power..... It would completly take the spotlight away from Rand, as the male power user in the group, and ruin his journey of learning the one power....But then again, the show might not care that much about it.

I meant learn. They obviously don't have the spark.. but then.. even that I'm not certain of. It manifests itself at different ages, and they are still quite young during the events of the saga.

However I wasn't thinking of them having the spark, just the possibility they could be one of those people could be taught. They were never tested for it if I remember.

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I think - they would have already shown that. Like Rand and his usage it 1-2 books.
Their power is more of the world, not one power.
Like Mat's power is luck - that is nothing to do with Saidin. Maybe some aspect of ta'varen at maximum? Not changing weather like Rand, not pulling other people to him. But oneaspect - luck - is turned on maximum capability.
Wolfbrother was explained in book 2, I think? His power also not from Saidin or one source at all. And if he would be stilled - nothing happens. Maybe there is another sources of powers? Like we know that main "magic" comes from One Source, that consist 2 parts as Korean simbol (forgot name). But there is True source - power from Dark One.
So it is logical to suspect that there can be more? Tel'Aran'Riod as example can be that another source. Some power that Rand after MoL have - too not coming from Saidin, and its not Dream power either. Some world's power?

I should have clarified. I meant one of those who can be taught, not those born with the spark.

However I was thinking of the wolf thing also, I don't remember if Isam could actually talk to wolves and went over to the shadow or if he was just a very talented male dreamer.

If Perrin could be taught, who knows, could it have been possible.

When the events Ta'veren are spun into the pattern for conclude, all accounts say they stop being ta'veren, the wheel has woven the pattern for their usage. Off course if they had other things like titles, families, abilities independent of their ta'veren status, then they'd still keep those.

Matt's luck seems to be pattern related, ta'veren I think.. but then was the pattern always giving him the luck he needed to fulfil the ta'veren role ( i mean the dices rattling in his head) or is this one of the abilities the Wheel gave him anyway, that would be very useful or esssential to his role as ta'veren but not created by ta'veren need? If that makes any sense.

Basically is Matt naturally very lucky as an ability like Perrin's wolfbrother or Rand's channelling is what I am not sure.

So after the saga, would Matt still be very lucky naturally even though he would no longer be ta'veren, cos Perrin would still be able to talk to wolves and Rand would still be able to channel /shrug.

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Mat gradually understands how his luck works. And I don't believe he'd want anything to do with the One Power but wanting such is just crazy talk in his opinion.
Perrin seemed fairly dismissive of balefire being used in the Dream. But while I don't believe he's capable of learning the One Power, I don't think he'd shun the learning if he could have a "tool" that could be beneficial to those around him.

Indeed, if Matt could learn to channel (or even if he was a late developer with the in born spark), he wouldn't want it at all. BUT .. Matt's main reason, and the reason for much of the world's fear of the power, especially in males was in going mad. Matt doesn't want to be anywhere near the power - saidin or saidar well because it's magic and he can't do anything about it that's scary. But definitely not SAidin because you go mad and that was monstrous to every person of their age.

Obviously the first fear would be overcome if he could actually channel - whether by learning or was born with the spark, the second fear is done away with later because Lews Therin fixes the problem he caused anyway.

So he wouldn't need to fear going mad or being helpless against the power, would he be able to surmount that prejudice? or will it just change Matt too much ?

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They were never tested and after a point saidin is clean so sure, they might be. It would be a very bad idea for Mat given where he is likely to live. Perrin doesn't need it?

Yes, this. Although I don't think he will live there, he's already knocked her up, and she seems to think his purpose is done anyway, but you never know how things like that could turn out.

Jordan was really good at creating these difficult plot and character problems then solving them in a way we very much enjoyed.

[rhorle]

Matt's luck seems to be pattern related, ta'veren I think.

Yes and no. The dice in his head is his Ta'veren "power" but he has innate luck attached to his soul. Mr. Sanderson states his interpretation of the notes left by Mr. Jordan is the luck of Mat was magnified by being a Ta'veren and kept growing through out the series. In past lives he would have still been lucky but just not as lucky.

https://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=972#30
Question

Perrin felt his ta'veren-ness melting away. If Mat lost it too, does he lose his luck?

Brandon Sanderson

I don't believe that he does. Being a ta'veren has a distinct effect on him, but I think there is an innate luckiness to Mat, partially drawn from the fact that the Heroes [of the Horn] call him Gambler. And so in other lives where he would not have been ta'veren he was still a gambler and still lucky. However, I do think being a ta'veren meant that the luck was greatly magnified, and I think it grew stronger and stronger through the series. That's my read on it from the notes, and I'm pretty sure on that one. I have to give the caveat that there could be something out there that contradicts me.

[Mace]

Book verse - Perrin must have a ridiculous degree of concentration to operate how he manages to do so well in the dream. Do you notice that Perrin's clothes and details don't flutter anywere near as much as Egwene's did at the start, he seems a lot more disciplined in his thought.

The more I think about it, the more it fits his profile. I only recently realised that all Jordan's talk about Perrin not being slow but careful, purposeful considerate, a deep thinker, solid too.. actually al lends itself to being a master of the dream

Also makes me wonder if Perrin actually has an Idatic memory. We don't read him saying clever sounding things. but Perrin really gets the job done. Not a battle master like Mat or Lews Therin like Rand, so he does this on his own intelligence.


Book verse: Gawyn - I think I stopped liking Gawyn when Jordan made him come off rather stupid. Supporting the Younglings may have been cool in and of itself, but they'd have been far more exciting helping the Salidar Aes Sedai.. but I also recognised that Gawyns section helps make the story a lot more realistic, his errors, his mistakes, his various things.

I would have liked him better too later if he wasn't so angry with Rand, and perhaps ended up with him - but again, you can't have every major character come off like total hero.. but he was the prince vibe

Book verse: Jordan never played on Rand's biological royalty. He is Tigraine's son, this sorta makes him a Prince. While Rand tries to hide this, A Rand = Galad friendship would have been good. Here is the nice touch Branderson gives when Galad realises Rand is his brother. Off course Rand has realised Galad is his brother much earlier. But I really did think that Jordan would play up that internal and familial drama more, it may have given Rand a more humane side during his mad period.

I is certainly one thing a good adaptation could have played up a little bit more. It would have been interesting if they had manoeuvred Galad into being King of Cairhien, and a Damodred that didn't' want the throne at all, which Rand would think made him perfect, he could also have been the one to turn the image of the whitecloaks around, or be a break off group the Sun cloaks .. i think that could have played better.


Book Verse: The polygamy nature of Rand. I was uncomfortable with this, but I appreciated it because this was one of the things that really helped make the Aiel feel like a different culture. From Rand's Aiel heritage, that wierd arrangement actually works. I mean Jordan could have written him to basically go through 3 girlfriends and knock them al up, blame the madness or split personality for jumping to others. e.g. Lews Therin loves Elayne, Aviendha is the one he gets most infatuated with after meeting, and Min is the one that grows on him feeling that he would never see Elayne or Aviendha again. I don't think it's anything anti-female though, as in the book verse it is the women that determine this, not the men, and it was always told in the context of the man wanting only one woman, but the women deciding he would share them and so controlling. Although the opposite is definitely in the Aes Sedai, especially when the greens bond several warders and sleep with them too, not to mention the implied orgies.


Book Verse: Perdon Niall - I liked his arc, but I think more could have been done with Jaichim CArridin. Boors is the opeing character of the Great Hunt, but he seems to play so little a role. A powerful non-channelling, normal darkfriend of the scheming kind would have been interesting to have. I think he was underplayed. Padan Fain isn't quite the normal darkfriend.

Book Verse: Morgase and Siuan - liked how he wrote those in. Always wondered what the story could have been if SIuan remained Amyrlin, would it have been better.. would we have been a lot more sympathetic to the Aes Sedai, or had a firm wing of them we were supporting. In the end it's only the Emond's fielders, and a few others like Verin and Cadsuane that we are really behind, Siuan and Leane too..

I do like how he keeps knocking them down a peg, without necessarily damaging them. The Aes Sedai of today are kinda like the blood elves in

[Koriani]

@Koriani There you go. And he is allowed to have an opinion I've been reading the books again, and boy how incredible it could have been if they followed the books.. the majority of those actors would never have been kept in those roles. I think only Rand Mat would have been. Rosamund Pike is too old and too tall to play Moiraine, and did you see Alanna?

But if they had a bigger budget and more competent showrunners, face it, this could have looked very different.

But yes, many of them were not attractive enough for the way the book described them. Jordan really wrote this with Hollywood in mind casting attractive people for all the roles.. I bet he didn't bargain the movie to be done in the woke era where you can't have only attractive people.. but then there are so many people in the scenes, plenty of room for less attractive people..but without a doubt the main 5 are suppose to be extremely good looing, most of the Ae Sedai mentioned are attractive looking, not all are beautiful, but when they say beautiful you expect it, handsome is handsome (think Siuan and Elaida).

And there you go -

You know you said only one post ago "I didn't use it to tear the show down"...

but oh look, Gumble's post and then your very NEXT POST - you used your beliefs about people's (and character's) attractiveness levels to talk about how the show failed again.

So...yeah, there you go. Almost made it. Then couldn't help yourself. Came back around to your one, and only, point - including bringing it back to "woke" Hollywood. I knew the entire 'front' of talking about who's most attractive in the books was just to get around to this again.

[Mace]

And there you go -

You know you said only one post ago "I didn't use it to tear the show down"...

but oh look, Gumble's post and then your very NEXT POST - you used your beliefs about people's (and character's) attractiveness levels to talk about how the show failed again.

So...yeah, there you go. Almost made it. Then couldn't help yourself. Came back around to your one, and only, point - including bringing it back to "woke" Hollywood. I knew the entire 'front' of talking about who's most attractive in the books was just to get around to this again.

But I didn't. But now I am.

I have no respect for this trash of a show. Gaudy and disrespectful to the author. Agenda driven shit show, that could have been so much better. Anything can be used to attack the show. However not every thing I posted was meant to attack the show. I can if I want come back and use anything I have said to attack the show.

Shall I start with the bookverse post I made about Perrin above? And start discussing how terrible the show's Perrin is with regard to this and how it fails tocapture through the scenes it gives Perrin all the characteristics that build to that solid vein?

[Surfd]

If it weren't for Tower Law, Aes Sedai would be vilified as they were with Artur Hawkwing. We've seen how truly nasty the Forsaken can be, and how utterly ruthless Rand was.

That's not the argument he was getting at.

Tower law generally prevents the Aes Sedai from abusing their power. It doesn't explain why so many of them are just bad / inefficient / behind the curve at using it.

Like, compare the Aes Sedai to the Wise Ones or the Windfinders. Windfinders could do stuff with weather / wind manipulation that made the best Aes Sedai in the tower look like kids stumbling around in the dark. Wise Ones were chucking fireballs at shit they couldn't even see / stuff behind them, which tower trained Aes Sedai would have considered almost impossible to do. As the series moves on, it becomes very obvious that the White Tower has basically stifled innovation and experimentation when it comes to One Power use, and quite possibly has set the Aes Sedai as an orginization back centuries in terms of actually using the power to it's full potential.

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Looking good and having style are very different things. Thom is old in the books and defiantly not someone all the girls were wooing after, but he has very specific style, charm and performance in the way he acted. His job was not just be a musician or storyteller, but to be liked and enjoyed, so that is invited back/allowed back in.

And that is not even looking into the fact, that he is a very efficient spymaster, which is also something where you need to be very intentional about how you look.

I kind of understand why they basically deleted Thom from the TV series, mainly because Thom's the kind of character that is almost impossible to get right in Live Action. You would need a world class actor to pull Thom off properly. Bout the only person who I could think of that might have been able to do it would have been Sean Connery in his 50's.

Thom is a Grand Master level performance artist. He's a master of disguise, capable of changing not only his appearance but his mannerisms and character to the point where he can basically become an almost completely different person. He's hobnobbed in literally every social circle from being Personal Bard to Kings to Gleeman playing taverns for dinner money. He's probably forgotten more about political intrigue and geopolitics than most people learn in a lifetime. The guy just straight up oozes charm, whit and charisma, but is also capable of picking up practically any musical instrument and straight up captivating an audience as if they were under a spell.

I honestly don't think the TV series could do any attempt at getting "Thom Plays an Instrument for a Crowd" right, no matter how hard they tried.

[Shadowferal]

I kind of understand why they basically deleted Thom from the TV series, mainly because Thom's the kind of character that is almost impossible to get right in Live Action. You would need a world class actor to pull Thom off properly. Bout the only person who I could think of that might have been able to do it would have been Sean Connery in his 50's.

Omg...Connery..ya! He would've been a perfect fit. And the sheer charisma would have everyone believing a certain Aes Sedai would be a perfect match.

[ItsRainingMetal]

I just finished the first book and it was amazing. I ordered all the rest as well. :P With that being said I can see why some people are frustrated with the show. Just comparing the first book with the first season of the show I think the writers really murdered the source material. They have given moments from some characters to other characters, many of the locations are wrong and they replaced some characters completely with some totally unrelated characters and parts of the story in the show doesn't happen at all in the book, but maybe that has to do with stuff happening in the next book Dunno.

WTF is that ending in season 1 though. There is hardly any comparison with the book version other than they are in the same general area. I mean. I was wondering why the world saving hero was being so pathetic and weak in the show, but it's just because they stripped him of his Super Saiyan moment in the end of the book and gave it to Egwene and Nynaeve and the 4 other nameless randoms.

[Nymrohd]

Like, compare the Aes Sedai to the Wise Ones or the Windfinders. Windfinders could do stuff with weather / wind manipulation that made the best Aes Sedai in the tower look like kids stumbling around in the dark. Wise Ones were chucking fireballs at shit they couldn't even see / stuff behind them, which tower trained Aes Sedai would have considered almost impossible to do. As the series moves on, it becomes very obvious that the White Tower has basically stifled innovation and experimentation when it comes to One Power use, and quite possibly has set the Aes Sedai as an orginization back centuries in terms of actually using the power to it's full potential.

Pretty much. Aes sedai seem to not exactly care about improving their knowledge of the one power. There is no innovation likely because there is minimal pressure. The Seanchan and Sharrans clearly train constantly and while the Windfinders are only really good at one thing, they are extraordinary at it. Even the Wise Ones are better simply because they don't stop their channelers from experimenting by having ironbound traditions. Like, imagine if the yellow had actually bothered to look at what Nynaeve did before she delivered something crazy like reversing stilling; they'd have berated her for using fire to heal.