1. #4361
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    I mean, Egwene has been suffering a lot because of the collar, and what does she do? she still tries to take it off or attack her master... I hope in the books something this stupid doesn't take place
    It does but it’s not something we see it’s just mentioned.

    But mostly the collaring is handled completely differently.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  2. #4362
    I will say this, it's not the actors, not one of them. I think they do a fairly good job mostly, sometimes even excellent...it's just what's been given them. The roles, the scripts.

    I don't get why Ishamael, Lanfear and Liadrin have such huge character arcs, while the main characters do not. I may have appreciated the extras if they had stuck to the book canon, and found choice moments to flesh more depths.

    But every time they start to do something that sorta looks good, or could be, they ruin it for ideology. Ofc Egwene has to save herself.. it's the only way. Then Egwene fending off Ishamael.. lol, I mean, they snare at the book for not being emotionally complex enough or woke enough, then give such over powered roles without rhyme or reason. I mean really. The book did a much better job on every front.

    I guess the budget wasn't large enough to actually do the scenes in both books well enough. I'm sorry, fighting the dark one in the skies above falme with the power was much better.

    It was watchable, and had it's high moments, but very cheesy hollywood. In the book you get a proper story, well written. And much bigger high moments. Last episode saw the boys a little less useless than they had been, but many of their good parts from the book aren't there. The show does give Perrin new powers, Matt seems to be a hero of the horn, and their greatest leader, when in the books it is Rand that is the leader of the heroes.

    Part of the problem with the show is that many of the changes were negative for the male characters, because they were worse than the book, and were blatantly inferior to the women most of the time. It's not that Lan was softer, show Lan's character isn't bad by itself, it's just not the Lan of the book, and the Lan of the book was good because of how he was. He didn't need to be something else.

    Also many of the female roles were over blown, without any good reason. Nynaeve does incredible things because she's female and no other reason.. but then most magic based shows are use to people doing incredible things with no explanation, no training, no drawbacks.. look at Rey in Star Wars, and these people think it's good, no it isn't, the book does it in a far better way.

    We get to know why Rand can suddenly do some things well beyond his level of training, even though the how/why is revealed later, by virtue of being the Dragon Reborn you can at least believe his role imubes a certain level of power.. yet before we get the explanation, Jordan does it in such away that you are not left thinkig this unbelievable in a ridiculous way.. Rand has many flaws and you see him struggle and fail a lot before he gets it right, he's most often powerelss running and escaping from bigger forces, and only on those rare key mometns hwen something else is also stirring that you cach glimpses of his extrordinary power come to bear, and when you read the bok, he's not even really aware of what he is doing, but you find out why and how later.


    None of that is done. Also Jordan gets much better the relative importance between his characters. The show likes to present them as a 5, farily equal in reelveance, not so in the bookk, The Dragon is the most important character and the super Ta'veren, yet you never get the feeling that Perrin and Matt are that less important and you care of the Nynaeve, Egweene , Elayne etc even though they aren't ta'veren at all.

    Yet the show cannot have the male characters hold a position that seems greater than the females. So Lanfear, the Amyrlin , Egwene and Nynaeve, Moiraine are all boosted too. They badly want that SOFEE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    thanks for your passionate answer!
    you made me more curious about the books with one post than the whole two seasons did...

    but Lorgar Aurelian's answer still scares me
    I mean, Egwene has been suffering a lot because of the collar, and what does she do? she still tries to take it off or attack her master... I hope in the books something this stupid doesn't take place
    The books do not, they actually explain what's going on and you can clearly see the writer has a brain, and goes to lengths to explain every detail. I really suggest you read the books, or get an audio book so you can listen (the male voice reader is no Stephen Fry, but you get the story from the book).

    The book has a chapter that describes Egwene's situation where he shows us how the Damane works and the limitations on the damane, at the end of it Egwene knows exactly what it does. Those additional scenes in the show where Egweene is again trying to take off the colour do not happen in the books. She gets out of the colour in a very different way. The show changes it because.. Egwene is a woman and a female heroine must rescue herself, a man certainly can't, she has to do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    I wouldn’t count Rand among them, atleast not book 1/2 rand, the show version works fine for book 3 onwards (-the sex) but book 1/2 rand is far more in denial about every thing and not as combative.
    The books don't have the sex yes, but the sex is part of what he does in the changed version of the show, not really part of who he is.

    The show didn't portray Rand well, but he feels a little bit more like Rand from the books than many of the characters, even though they deleted most of his scenes, which are the lionshare of the first book and the main part of the second book. I mean show Rand is mostly useless where book Rand wasn't, but then again, that's things hhe does, rather than his character. It's a different Rand for sure, by mere virtue of doing very different things than the book, but they seeem to have kept a little bit more of his book personality that they didn't for their friends.

  3. #4363
    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    I've known The Wheel of Time for decades but I have never read the book. The problem with this series is that doesn't make want to start reading the books, I found every "good side" character deeply stupid, unlikable and illogical in their actions and words, at this point (s02e05) I'm rooting for the bad guys Is it a problem of bad writing of the TV series or were they that stupid in the books too?
    The showrunner deliberately alienated fans of the books.
    Take that as you will. But I assure you the books are superior to the show in every way.

  4. #4364
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    The showrunner deliberately alienated fans of the books.
    Take that as you will. But I assure you the books are superior to the show in every way.
    Listening to the books again, and I'm just like.. how could you not make this into a HIT TV show, LOTR level of popularity, the book has it all.

    I sometimes wonder how much I may have liked the show if here was no book. I would have been a lot more forgiving, and just enjoyed it as a cheesy fantasy with the occasional cool effects and some eye candy cast, with some fantasy setting.

    But having read he books, the standard and expectation has been set at a much higher bar.. and the show simply insults it. The actors are the only ones that seemed o be really trying.

    Showrunner cheated the world to spread the word of his writing staff's ideology. Sahrkis wanted a fem positive show, and in her eyes, fem positive is ultra feminism - SOFEE type - what now counts for feminism,

  5. #4365
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    On book stuff, Is there like any one at all who likes Elayne? any friend I've talked to about the series all agree she sucks for one reason or another and I don't even think I've ever seen a good word about her online.
    Honestly - and its been over a decade since I've read the books (not watched the show), but for what its worth -

    The only character I remember being annoyed and sick of, was Nynaeve. I don't remember much specific about Elayne, so that probably doesn't lend itself to the idea that she made any "great" or "bad" impression, necessarily. More that she just doesn't stand out as much as my memories of most of the other 'main' characters.

    But Nyn, for some reason I got really sick of reading about her thoughts/feelings and found it repetitive and, eventually, boring. And I don't /think/ it was just all the braid pulling, but maybe that biased me - as I got REALLY SICK of reading those words ad nauseam. I think it took 3-4 books for me to feel this way about Nyn, but yeah, certainly by book 7-8 I was just wanting to glaze-skip over anything detailing her inner thoughts and frustrations.

    But again, we're 10+ years out from my one time read. That's what stands out anyway. heh.
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  6. #4366
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriani View Post
    Honestly - and its been over a decade since I've read the books (not watched the show), but for what its worth -

    The only character I remember being annoyed and sick of, was Nynaeve. I don't remember much specific about Elayne, so that probably doesn't lend itself to the idea that she made any "great" or "bad" impression, necessarily. More that she just doesn't stand out as much as my memories of most of the other 'main' characters.

    But Nyn, for some reason I got really sick of reading about her thoughts/feelings and found it repetitive and, eventually, boring. And I don't /think/ it was just all the braid pulling, but maybe that biased me - as I got REALLY SICK of reading those words ad nauseam. I think it took 3-4 books for me to feel this way about Nyn, but yeah, certainly by book 7-8 I was just wanting to glaze-skip over anything detailing her inner thoughts and frustrations.

    But again, we're 10+ years out from my one time read. That's what stands out anyway. heh.
    Nynaeve Is personally my favourite character but I can very much so see why people have a problem with her as she’s a very stubborn/angry character for most of the series, and of course has that braid pulling tick which is repeated a ton in book 1-5.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  7. #4367
    And yet, Nynaeve was written up as one of the few, if not the only one, that Rand trusted implicitly with a power that could've destroyed the world.

  8. #4368
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Nynaeve Is personally my favourite character but I can very much so see why people have a problem with her as she’s a very stubborn/angry character for most of the series, and of course has that braid pulling tick which is repeated a ton in book 1-5.
    Not that uncommon. She is up there with Mat for most of the people I know who have actually read the books.

    I'm always in the minority for liking Egwene as my favorite character.

    The one change the show could have done, that would have actually improved on the books, would have been to leave Egwene's story alone, but suggest that she is Ta'veren too. Her and Nynaeve feel like they bend the pattern around them to a degree as well, Egwene more so. They may not be as strong as the boys in that regard, but Egwene's story makes alot more sense with that one change.

    But regardless, she's always been my favorite.

  9. #4369
    Scarab Lord Skizzit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gumble View Post
    Not that uncommon. She is up there with Mat for most of the people I know who have actually read the books.

    I'm always in the minority for liking Egwene as my favorite character.

    The one change the show could have done, that would have actually improved on the books, would have been to leave Egwene's story alone, but suggest that she is Ta'veren too. Her and Nynaeve feel like they bend the pattern around them to a degree as well, Egwene more so. They may not be as strong as the boys in that regard, but Egwene's story makes alot more sense with that one change.

    But regardless, she's always been my favorite.
    Man, things must change a lot as the series goes on cause I am a little over half way through book 5 and I cannot stand Nynaeve. She annoys me to no end.

    Book 5 is also around where I gave up on the series the first time I tried to read it and I can feel why. So little happens, it is just people traveling. It's just keeps jumping between 3 different groups of people traveling to places. Not to mention Perrin seems to have vanished from the series completely. I have a feeling the next few books are going to be a slog. Thank goodness for audiobooks and 1.5x playback speed.

  10. #4370
    Quote Originally Posted by Skizzit View Post
    Man, things must change a lot as the series goes on cause I am a little over half way through book 5 and I cannot stand Nynaeve. She annoys me to no end.

    Book 5 is also around where I gave up on the series the first time I tried to read it and I can feel why. So little happens, it is just people traveling. It's just keeps jumping between 3 different groups of people traveling to places. Not to mention Perrin seems to have vanished from the series completely. I have a feeling the next few books are going to be a slog. Thank goodness for audiobooks and 1.5x playback speed.
    Some spoilers on why Nynaeve gets increasingly more awesome.
    Nynaeve has a lot of crowning moments of awesome even early on. Using balefire untrained, defeating Moghedien, chaining her with the A'dam and then using her to save Rand, healing Loghain, breaking her block. How she manages to help Rand and how she is one of the few people he seems to trust completely (imo he only 100% trusts Min and Nynaeve). In the last few books the way she helps her husband and creates an army for him and the fact that she actually manages to heal the madness of Saidin. For me the most important parts are the healing ones; Nynaeve twice manages to heal something that people from the Age of Wonders considered impossible. Honestly the fact that in the end everyone gangs up on Cadsuane to make her Amyrlin were Nynaeve is just there, is the strongest Aes Sedai by far (and was forced through absolute hell to get there) and literally just helped saved the world next to the Dragon made little sense to me (but she would likely have declined).
    But the best part about it is that she is just a good person and she is good unconditionally. Egwene's morality is to some extent tempered by her ambition and her increasing belief that she is the only person who knows what should be done which is a running theme in WoT that Egwene never really escapes (and Rand effectively transcends which I for one found a bit cheap). Nynaeve just genuinely wants to help people with no ulterior motive. Perrin is also like that but Perrin really only gets to shine in Sanderson's books (where frankly he becomes increasingly OP; by the end I wasn't even sure if Rand was stronger than Perrin given that Perrin could freely alter reality in the dream to an extent far greater than any of the Forsaken or even Egwene who was trained and it was her specialty).
    Last edited by Nymrohd; 2023-10-19 at 08:08 AM.

  11. #4371
    Quote Originally Posted by Skizzit View Post
    Man, things must change a lot as the series goes on cause I am a little over half way through book 5 and I cannot stand Nynaeve. She annoys me to no end.

    Book 5 is also around where I gave up on the series the first time I tried to read it and I can feel why. So little happens, it is just people traveling. It's just keeps jumping between 3 different groups of people traveling to places. Not to mention Perrin seems to have vanished from the series completely. I have a feeling the next few books are going to be a slog. Thank goodness for audiobooks and 1.5x playback speed.
    I think that would change aroung book 8? When Egwene and Nynaeve basically change places. Egwene will be such a bitch (always have been), while Nynaeve will come to best part of her history yes, her journey to North lands to rally Malkieri. Fuck that was epic. To this day I eventually find that part, it still give me chills

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Nynaeve has a lot of crowning moments of awesome even early on. Using balefire untrained, defeating Moghedien, chaining her with the A'dam and then using her to save Rand, healing Loghain, breaking her block. In the last few books the way she helps her husband and creates an army for him and the fact that she actually manages to heal the madness of saidin. For me the most important parts are the healing ones; Nynaeve twice manages to heal something that people from the Age of Wonders considered impossible.
    But the best part about it is that she is just a good person and she is good unconditionally. Egwene's morality is to some extent tempered by her ambition and her increasing belief that she is the only person who knows what should be done which is a running theme in WoT that Egwene never really escapes (and Rand effectively transcends which I for one found a bit cheap). Nynaeve just genuinely wants to help people with no ulterior motive. Perrin is also like that but Perrin really only gets to shine in Sanderson's books (where frankly he becomes increasingly OP; by the end I wasn't even sure if Rand was stronger than Perrin given that Perrin could freely alter reality in the dream to an extent far greater than any of the Forsaken or even Egwene who was trained and it was her specialty).
    Hey, spoilers! Lad only at book 5
    Also - Perrin have stronger connection and understanding the Dream, Egwene trained by amateurs, while Perrin - with pro.
    Last edited by Dancaris; 2023-10-19 at 08:08 AM.

  12. #4372
    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    I think that would change aroung book 8? When Egwene and Nynaeve basically change places. Egwene will be such a bitch (always have been), while Nynaeve will come to best part of her history yes, her journey to North lands to rally Malkieri. Fuck that was epic. To this day I eventually find that part, it still give me chills

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    Hey, spoilers! Lad only at book 5
    You are right, I put it on spoiler blocks so please remove it from the quote as well.

    and when she heals Loghain, heals the Ashaman and on that chapter where she rallies the Malkieri, I pretty much always happy cry
    Last edited by Nymrohd; 2023-10-19 at 08:09 AM.

  13. #4373
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    You are right, I put it on spoiler blocks so please remove it from the quote as well.

    and when she heals Loghain, heals the Ashaman and on that chapter where she rallies the Malkieri, I pretty much always happy cry
    It is time, that time of year to read chapter with that Malkieri blacksmith. The Golden Crane flies for Tarmon Gai’don.
    Last edited by Dancaris; 2023-10-19 at 08:32 AM.

  14. #4374
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    (where frankly he becomes increasingly OP; by the end I wasn't even sure if Rand was stronger than Perrin given that Perrin could freely alter reality in the dream to an extent far greater than any of the Forsaken or even Egwene who was trained and it was her specialty).
    Perrin was trained by a hero that lived partially in the Dream while he lived. After dying, he became a full teacher to Perrin.

  15. #4375
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Perrin was trained by a hero that lived partially in the Dream while he lived. After dying, he became a full teacher to Perrin.
    true but Egwene has been working on mastering the Dream since the second book. Perrin barely works on his wolfbrother skills outside finding Faile in Book 3 and then in the last couple of books he gets strong enough to treat the Forsaken like children while in the Dream.

  16. #4376
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    true but Egwene has been working on mastering the Dream since the second book. Perrin barely works on his wolfbrother skills outside finding Faile in Book 3 and then in the last couple of books he gets strong enough to treat the Forsaken like children while in the Dream.
    I think most of Dream powers are coming from sheer faith in changing world. No logic, no One power. Just sheer will to resist influence and make things bend to you. Egwene still thinks that Dream world is something to do with one power, so she treat it logic of real world.
    While Perrin is free from it.

  17. #4377
    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    I think most of Dream powers are coming from sheer faith in changing world. No logic, no One power. Just sheer will to resist influence and make things bend to you. Egwene still thinks that Dream world is something to do with one power, so she treat it logic of real world.
    While Perrin is free from it.
    Largely true. Honestly I wish they had a greater chance to interact in the dream. If only books 5-11 could be cut down by a couple of books and then books 12-14 could be stretched by the difference.

  18. #4378
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skizzit View Post
    Man, things must change a lot as the series goes on cause I am a little over half way through book 5 and I cannot stand Nynaeve. She annoys me to no end.

    Book 5 is also around where I gave up on the series the first time I tried to read it and I can feel why. So little happens, it is just people traveling. It's just keeps jumping between 3 different groups of people traveling to places. Not to mention Perrin seems to have vanished from the series completely. I have a feeling the next few books are going to be a slog. Thank goodness for audiobooks and 1.5x playback speed.
    I’m halfway through book 8 on my second time through the slog is indeed coming post book 5.

    The vast majority of 6-7 and the first half of 8 are just so much nothing happening or retreading stuff that was already covered and not interesting the first time through.

    I remember the series picking back up around book 11 or so but god does that feel far off.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  19. #4379
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    I’m halfway through book 8 on my second time through the slog is indeed coming post book 5.

    The vast majority of 6-7 and the first half of 8 are just so much nothing happening or retreading stuff that was already covered and not interesting the first time through.

    I remember the series picking back up around book 11 or so but god does that feel far off.
    I dunno man, I'm always good up through book 9. The wells, shadar logoth, and then the big event at the end of book 9. Those are all good for me.

    But, as I mentioned, I love Egwene and her efforts to truly become the position she becomes I quite enjoy. I love her laughing scene and her taking charge during the attack.

    But, I've read the series around 9 times, so I hope I like it.

  20. #4380
    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    I think most of Dream powers are coming from sheer faith in changing world. No logic, no One power. Just sheer will to resist influence and make things bend to you. Egwene still thinks that Dream world is something to do with one power, so she treat it logic of real world.
    While Perrin is free from it.
    Also I'm pretty sure that wolves have a special connection to the Dream that Wolfbrothers can use to their advantage. It's home-turf for Perrin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Some spoilers on why Nynaeve gets increasingly more awesome.
    Nynaeve has a lot of crowning moments of awesome even early on. Using balefire untrained, defeating Moghedien, chaining her with the A'dam and then using her to save Rand, healing Loghain, breaking her block. How she manages to help Rand and how she is one of the few people he seems to trust completely (imo he only 100% trusts Min and Nynaeve). In the last few books the way she helps her husband and creates an army for him and the fact that she actually manages to heal the madness of Saidin. For me the most important parts are the healing ones; Nynaeve twice manages to heal something that people from the Age of Wonders considered impossible. Honestly the fact that in the end everyone gangs up on Cadsuane to make her Amyrlin were Nynaeve is just there, is the strongest Aes Sedai by far (and was forced through absolute hell to get there) and literally just helped saved the world next to the Dragon made little sense to me (but she would likely have declined).
    But the best part about it is that she is just a good person and she is good unconditionally. Egwene's morality is to some extent tempered by her ambition and her increasing belief that she is the only person who knows what should be done which is a running theme in WoT that Egwene never really escapes (and Rand effectively transcends which I for one found a bit cheap). Nynaeve just genuinely wants to help people with no ulterior motive. Perrin is also like that but Perrin really only gets to shine in Sanderson's books (where frankly he becomes increasingly OP; by the end I wasn't even sure if Rand was stronger than Perrin given that Perrin could freely alter reality in the dream to an extent far greater than any of the Forsaken or even Egwene who was trained and it was her specialty).
    My absolute favourite part is when Nynaeve accidentally heals Logain's Gentling and and is just like "oh shit did that just fucking happen!?"

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