[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Surfd]

If it weren't for Tower Law, Aes Sedai would be vilified as they were with Artur Hawkwing. We've seen how truly nasty the Forsaken can be, and how utterly ruthless Rand was.

That's not the argument he was getting at.

Tower law generally prevents the Aes Sedai from abusing their power. It doesn't explain why so many of them are just bad / inefficient / behind the curve at using it.

Like, compare the Aes Sedai to the Wise Ones or the Windfinders. Windfinders could do stuff with weather / wind manipulation that made the best Aes Sedai in the tower look like kids stumbling around in the dark. Wise Ones were chucking fireballs at shit they couldn't even see / stuff behind them, which tower trained Aes Sedai would have considered almost impossible to do. As the series moves on, it becomes very obvious that the White Tower has basically stifled innovation and experimentation when it comes to One Power use, and quite possibly has set the Aes Sedai as an orginization back centuries in terms of actually using the power to it's full potential.

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Looking good and having style are very different things. Thom is old in the books and defiantly not someone all the girls were wooing after, but he has very specific style, charm and performance in the way he acted. His job was not just be a musician or storyteller, but to be liked and enjoyed, so that is invited back/allowed back in.

And that is not even looking into the fact, that he is a very efficient spymaster, which is also something where you need to be very intentional about how you look.

I kind of understand why they basically deleted Thom from the TV series, mainly because Thom's the kind of character that is almost impossible to get right in Live Action. You would need a world class actor to pull Thom off properly. Bout the only person who I could think of that might have been able to do it would have been Sean Connery in his 50's.

Thom is a Grand Master level performance artist. He's a master of disguise, capable of changing not only his appearance but his mannerisms and character to the point where he can basically become an almost completely different person. He's hobnobbed in literally every social circle from being Personal Bard to Kings to Gleeman playing taverns for dinner money. He's probably forgotten more about political intrigue and geopolitics than most people learn in a lifetime. The guy just straight up oozes charm, whit and charisma, but is also capable of picking up practically any musical instrument and straight up captivating an audience as if they were under a spell.

I honestly don't think the TV series could do any attempt at getting "Thom Plays an Instrument for a Crowd" right, no matter how hard they tried.

[Shadowferal]

I kind of understand why they basically deleted Thom from the TV series, mainly because Thom's the kind of character that is almost impossible to get right in Live Action. You would need a world class actor to pull Thom off properly. Bout the only person who I could think of that might have been able to do it would have been Sean Connery in his 50's.

Omg...Connery..ya! He would've been a perfect fit. And the sheer charisma would have everyone believing a certain Aes Sedai would be a perfect match.

[ItsRainingMetal]

I just finished the first book and it was amazing. I ordered all the rest as well. :P With that being said I can see why some people are frustrated with the show. Just comparing the first book with the first season of the show I think the writers really murdered the source material. They have given moments from some characters to other characters, many of the locations are wrong and they replaced some characters completely with some totally unrelated characters and parts of the story in the show doesn't happen at all in the book, but maybe that has to do with stuff happening in the next book Dunno.

WTF is that ending in season 1 though. There is hardly any comparison with the book version other than they are in the same general area. I mean. I was wondering why the world saving hero was being so pathetic and weak in the show, but it's just because they stripped him of his Super Saiyan moment in the end of the book and gave it to Egwene and Nynaeve and the 4 other nameless randoms.

[Nymrohd]

Like, compare the Aes Sedai to the Wise Ones or the Windfinders. Windfinders could do stuff with weather / wind manipulation that made the best Aes Sedai in the tower look like kids stumbling around in the dark. Wise Ones were chucking fireballs at shit they couldn't even see / stuff behind them, which tower trained Aes Sedai would have considered almost impossible to do. As the series moves on, it becomes very obvious that the White Tower has basically stifled innovation and experimentation when it comes to One Power use, and quite possibly has set the Aes Sedai as an orginization back centuries in terms of actually using the power to it's full potential.

Pretty much. Aes sedai seem to not exactly care about improving their knowledge of the one power. There is no innovation likely because there is minimal pressure. The Seanchan and Sharrans clearly train constantly and while the Windfinders are only really good at one thing, they are extraordinary at it. Even the Wise Ones are better simply because they don't stop their channelers from experimenting by having ironbound traditions. Like, imagine if the yellow had actually bothered to look at what Nynaeve did before she delivered something crazy like reversing stilling; they'd have berated her for using fire to heal.

[rhorle]

Pretty much. Aes sedai seem to not exactly care about improving their knowledge of the one power. There is no innovation likely because there is minimal pressure.

They are bound by tradition. It's not that they don't improve but that they have to do it X way. The Tower would be angry with Ny'naeve because she is doing stuff that has long since been deemed "bad" or could endanger their most precious resource. Themselves. The Tower is in decline and weakening because of their culling. Robert Jordan said the Black uses experiments to hide the deaths of people that refused their recruitment offer so that can play into hesitancy to do wild new things with the power.

The wise ones are not better but just different. Each method has their strength and weakness. It is one certain areas that the wise ones are better while the White Tower is better in others. The books give a skewed perception of it since so many new things were discovered in such a short period of time.

[Shadowferal]

Pretty much. Aes sedai seem to not exactly care about improving their knowledge of the one power. There is no innovation likely because there is minimal pressure. The Seanchan and Sharrans clearly train constantly and while the Windfinders are only really good at one thing, they are extraordinary at it. Even the Wise Ones are better simply because they don't stop their channelers from experimenting by having ironbound traditions. Like, imagine if the yellow had actually bothered to look at what Nynaeve did before she delivered something crazy like reversing stilling; they'd have berated her for using fire to heal.

As I recall now...Egwene says something similar about the Tower stagnating. A big reason for the changes she insisted on with Aes Sedai apprenticing to either Wind-finder, or Wise Ones, and vice-versa...or even Kin-folk.

[Redwyrm]

I believe another two reasons that was brought up in the books with regards to the White Towers diminishing power was

1. Not allowing male channelers to propagate their ability throughout the genetic landscape. They were basically culling out a significant portion of the One Power from the population.

2. The use of the Oath Rod. This had do to with the differences in age between the White Tower and the rest of the One Power using world. Those that took the Oath Rod had their lifespans significantly shortened. This also might have affected power levels.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

1. Not allowing male channelers to propagate their ability throughout the genetic landscape. They were basically culling out a significant portion of the One Power from the population.

Thinking about it this theory doesn’t actually make all that much sense.

Once the black tower pops up we find out that there are enough male channellers to rival the white tower and once they open the novice book to every one they get way more applications then the tower has sisters.

There shouldn’t be any issue with the power being culled given that there are tons of channellers without the spark but who can be trained going about there lives having kids just fine.

[Nymrohd]

Thinking about it this theory doesn’t actually make all that much sense.

Once the black tower pops up we find out that there are enough male channellers to rival the white tower and once they open the novice book to every one they get way more applications then the tower has sisters.

There shouldn’t be any issue with the power being culled given that there are tons of channellers without the spark but who can be trained going about there lives having kids just fine.

I think the Pattern's needs trumps genetics. Close to the end of the era, the Pattern pretty much produced enough people to force things to go forward including more powerful channelers and more of them.

[rhorle]

Thinking about it this theory doesn’t actually make all that much sense. Once the black tower pops up we find out that there are enough male channellers to rival the white tower and once they open the novice book to every one they get way more applications then the tower has sisters.

It is one implied by author. The White Tower doesn't frowns upon kids so they remove themselves from the gene pool. Male Channelers treated as breeding stock would be to give the best odds of having offspring that can channel.

The Tower could lower their standards and find a lot more people to train but that was part of their problem. Strength appears to be partly genetic so only the weakest were having kids when they were sent away. It isn't always genetic since Elaine is more powerful then her mother but that could have been the Pattern. Males likely didn't get found out and hunted by the red until they started to channel. So they could still have kids and pass on their genetic strength unrestricted. Much of the White Tower problems are self imposed. Was it the Black, the Pattern, or just the Tower being flawed. Likely a combo of all of them.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

It is one implied by author. The White Tower doesn't frowns upon kids so they remove themselves from the gene pool. Male Channelers treated as breeding stock would be to give the best odds of having offspring that can channel.

The Tower could lower their standards and find a lot more people to train but that was part of their problem. Strength appears to be partly genetic so only the weakest were having kids when they were sent away. It isn't always genetic since Elaine is more powerful then her mother but that could have been the Pattern. Males likely didn't get found out and hunted by the red until they started to channel. So they could still have kids and pass on their genetic strength unrestricted. Much of the White Tower problems are self imposed. Was it the Black, the Pattern, or just the Tower being flawed. Likely a combo of all of them.

Ya but if men who can be trained are out there and not being found like those who are born with the spark and those men are on average stronger then tower sisters then there really shouldn’t be a problem with weaker woman channellers being the ones having kids and there should be an even spread of male channellers having kids no problem.

And of course on the woman side of things they make it pretty clear that there efforts finding channellers is rather lacking and there are powerful woman channellers out there having whole family’s who should then go and spread those genes even if they are never found and trained.

If any thing it should be that how and where the tower looks for novices is what causes them to only find weaker sisters not any actual culling given that they miss way more men then they find to gentle.

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I think the Pattern's needs trumps genetics. Close to the end of the era, the Pattern pretty much produced enough people to force things to go forward including more powerful channelers and more of them.

Well if male channellers worked the same in every age since the breaking and those without the spark were just never found out because they were never trained then the pattern shouldn’t even need to do any thing the genes would be all over the place just not the ones for the spark, if spark/no spark is genetic of course.

[rhorle]

Ya but if men who can be trained are out there and not being found like those who are born with the spark and those men are on average stronger then tower sisters then there really shouldn’t be a problem with weaker woman channellers being the ones having kids and there should be an even spread of male channellers having kids no problem.

Male channellers have been culled as well with madness and being hunted. Robert Jordan has said that in the Age of Legends 2 to 3% of the population could channel in some fashion. At the time of the books it is about 1%. (https://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=189#13) Males going mad or being killed have contributed to the reduction. The Tower not having kids has contributed as well.

It all adds up. This doesn't mean that powerful people of both genders don't exist but it is rarer. If strength is genetic then removing even a few could have exponential effects down the line. Powerful women usually become sisters and don't reproduce. Powerful men usually go mad or get killed by the Red.

That isn't the only reason for the decline of the Tower since their recruitment, politics, and acceptance by society all contribute as well. The Tower was losing influence since Arthur Hawkwing. The Children are making any who might seek the tower out afraid. The Tower didn't seem to search for wilders often and instead relied on people seeking them out.

[Mace]

I just finished the first book and it was amazing. I ordered all the rest as well. :P With that being said I can see why some people are frustrated with the show. Just comparing the first book with the first season of the show I think the writers really murdered the source material. They have given moments from some characters to other characters, many of the locations are wrong and they replaced some characters completely with some totally unrelated characters and parts of the story in the show doesn't happen at all in the book, but maybe that has to do with stuff happening in the next book Dunno.

WTF is that ending in season 1 though. There is hardly any comparison with the book version other than they are in the same general area. I mean. I was wondering why the world saving hero was being so pathetic and weak in the show, but it's just because they stripped him of his Super Saiyan moment in the end of the book and gave it to Egwene and Nynaeve and the 4 other nameless randoms.

The worse thing about the show is there replacements are so much worse - you wonder why didn't they just stick with the books - it's all laid out there. Then there is such a high level of inconsistency and just mediocre production - the Wheel of Time deserved better.

[rhorle]

The worse thing about the show is there replacements are so much worse - you wonder why didn't they just stick with the books - it's all laid out there. Then there is such a high level of inconsistency and just mediocre production - the Wheel of Time deserved better.

No studio will adapt 1:1 of the books. It would even be hard to fit a book into 26 episodes that is common for non-streaming television. Even Robert Jordan knew this.

https://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=144#11
Robert Jordan
It's a chancey thing. I would not support anyone doing a feature film of, say, The Eye of the World. I do not think it could be compressed into three hours. Certainly not into two. That would make it incomprehensible. But... [end of this side of the tape] ... the screenwriter makes further changes, because, although it's a collaborative effort, if the director says I don't like this, do it some other way, do it this way, and the screenwriter does that. And if the screenwriter doesn't do that, they'll get another screenwriter. And then the actor says, "I don't believe this character would say this." And the actress says I don't want to do that, see, I want to do it this way, so they change the dialogue, and they change the scene. And the director, again, comes up and says, "I think it should be done in this fashion," and he shapes it.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Male channellers have been culled as well with madness and being hunted. Robert Jordan has said that in the Age of Legends 2 to 3% of the population could channel in some fashion. At the time of the books it is about 1%. (https://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=189#13) Males going mad or being killed have contributed to the reduction. The Tower not having kids has contributed as well.

I wouldn’t put much stock in that having to do with the white tower and gentling though given that he says the world not just those the white posed pull from, unless Jordan said they are by far the biggest population in the world.

The Seafolk Aiel and Seanchan would be counted within that population drop and they notable don’t have the same issue that the white tower theorizes, with the Aiel at least also sending all its men to die which is effectively the same as gentling them.

The sisters not having any kids could be the source of the discrepancy assuming the Seanchan let there “pets” breed, but the culling of men shouldn’t be an issue.

[rhorle]

The Seafolk Aiel and Seanchan would be counted within that population drop and they notable don’t have the same issue that the white tower theorizes, with the Aiel at least also sending all its men to die which is effectively the same as gentling them.

They do but just not to the same extent as the White Tower since they don't have the other type of recruitment issues. Shara is the only place that has been breeding for the One Power. As males who could channel were intentionally used to produce offspring. They were killed at the age of 21 or first sign of channeling. This is likely why the Forsaken were so interested in them and they were used at the Last Battle.

I recall that Seanchan was finding fewer as well but can't find any reference to that to confirm my recollection.

[whysosmolbro]

I have no respect for this trash of a show. Gaudy and disrespectful to the author.

and yet you remain

Agenda driven shit show, that could have been so much better.

oh you;re one of those

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I've never given two shits when reading the books, about this. It sounds like a question for a discussion with pre-teen girls (Or one to setup how the show fails...cuz Mace...).

it seems like a good example of how bottom of the barrel the people on this forum are for a discussion. "these people aren't as attractive as i think they should be, my subjective opinion is all that matters, garbage show"

why can't these prepubescent "men" just move on?

[Nymrohd]

The sisters not having any kids could be the source of the discrepancy assuming the Seanchan let there “pets” breed, but the culling of men shouldn’t be an issue.

Seanchan considered having sex with damane to be disgusting and anyone who would be caught doing it would be dishonored so if it happens it would be extremely rare. The real outlier is the Sharrans who pretty much practice channeling eugenics.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Seanchan considered having sex with damane to be disgusting and anyone who would be caught doing it would be dishonored so if it happens it would be extremely rare. The real outlier is the Sharrans who pretty much practice channeling eugenics.

Well ya but given how wide spread slavery/being property is in Seanchan I wouldn’t be surprised if there was some “breeding” going on by atleast some of the blood.

Not that I think we ever see enough of Seanchan to know beyond what’s her face princess mentioning bedding them to Mat.

[Nymrohd]

Well ya but given how wide spread slavery/being property is in Seanchan I wouldn’t be surprised if there was some “breeding” going on by atleast some of the blood.

Not that I think we ever see enough of Seanchan to know beyond what’s her face princess mentioning bedding them to Mat.

Still, if it does happen it's not something common and certainly it's not done on an industrial scale like with Sharrans keeping male channelers as breeding stock and executing them when they reach their early 20s