1. #4401
    I believe another two reasons that was brought up in the books with regards to the White Towers diminishing power was

    1. Not allowing male channelers to propagate their ability throughout the genetic landscape. They were basically culling out a significant portion of the One Power from the population.

    2. The use of the Oath Rod. This had do to with the differences in age between the White Tower and the rest of the One Power using world. Those that took the Oath Rod had their lifespans significantly shortened. This also might have affected power levels.
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  2. #4402
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redwyrm View Post
    1. Not allowing male channelers to propagate their ability throughout the genetic landscape. They were basically culling out a significant portion of the One Power from the population.
    Thinking about it this theory doesn’t actually make all that much sense.

    Once the black tower pops up we find out that there are enough male channellers to rival the white tower and once they open the novice book to every one they get way more applications then the tower has sisters.

    There shouldn’t be any issue with the power being culled given that there are tons of channellers without the spark but who can be trained going about there lives having kids just fine.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  3. #4403
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Thinking about it this theory doesn’t actually make all that much sense.

    Once the black tower pops up we find out that there are enough male channellers to rival the white tower and once they open the novice book to every one they get way more applications then the tower has sisters.

    There shouldn’t be any issue with the power being culled given that there are tons of channellers without the spark but who can be trained going about there lives having kids just fine.
    I think the Pattern's needs trumps genetics. Close to the end of the era, the Pattern pretty much produced enough people to force things to go forward including more powerful channelers and more of them.

  4. #4404
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Thinking about it this theory doesn’t actually make all that much sense. Once the black tower pops up we find out that there are enough male channellers to rival the white tower and once they open the novice book to every one they get way more applications then the tower has sisters.
    It is one implied by author. The White Tower doesn't frowns upon kids so they remove themselves from the gene pool. Male Channelers treated as breeding stock would be to give the best odds of having offspring that can channel.

    The Tower could lower their standards and find a lot more people to train but that was part of their problem. Strength appears to be partly genetic so only the weakest were having kids when they were sent away. It isn't always genetic since Elaine is more powerful then her mother but that could have been the Pattern. Males likely didn't get found out and hunted by the red until they started to channel. So they could still have kids and pass on their genetic strength unrestricted. Much of the White Tower problems are self imposed. Was it the Black, the Pattern, or just the Tower being flawed. Likely a combo of all of them.
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  5. #4405
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It is one implied by author. The White Tower doesn't frowns upon kids so they remove themselves from the gene pool. Male Channelers treated as breeding stock would be to give the best odds of having offspring that can channel.

    The Tower could lower their standards and find a lot more people to train but that was part of their problem. Strength appears to be partly genetic so only the weakest were having kids when they were sent away. It isn't always genetic since Elaine is more powerful then her mother but that could have been the Pattern. Males likely didn't get found out and hunted by the red until they started to channel. So they could still have kids and pass on their genetic strength unrestricted. Much of the White Tower problems are self imposed. Was it the Black, the Pattern, or just the Tower being flawed. Likely a combo of all of them.
    Ya but if men who can be trained are out there and not being found like those who are born with the spark and those men are on average stronger then tower sisters then there really shouldn’t be a problem with weaker woman channellers being the ones having kids and there should be an even spread of male channellers having kids no problem.

    And of course on the woman side of things they make it pretty clear that there efforts finding channellers is rather lacking and there are powerful woman channellers out there having whole family’s who should then go and spread those genes even if they are never found and trained.

    If any thing it should be that how and where the tower looks for novices is what causes them to only find weaker sisters not any actual culling given that they miss way more men then they find to gentle.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I think the Pattern's needs trumps genetics. Close to the end of the era, the Pattern pretty much produced enough people to force things to go forward including more powerful channelers and more of them.
    Well if male channellers worked the same in every age since the breaking and those without the spark were just never found out because they were never trained then the pattern shouldn’t even need to do any thing the genes would be all over the place just not the ones for the spark, if spark/no spark is genetic of course.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  6. #4406
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Ya but if men who can be trained are out there and not being found like those who are born with the spark and those men are on average stronger then tower sisters then there really shouldn’t be a problem with weaker woman channellers being the ones having kids and there should be an even spread of male channellers having kids no problem.
    Male channellers have been culled as well with madness and being hunted. Robert Jordan has said that in the Age of Legends 2 to 3% of the population could channel in some fashion. At the time of the books it is about 1%. (https://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=189#13) Males going mad or being killed have contributed to the reduction. The Tower not having kids has contributed as well.

    It all adds up. This doesn't mean that powerful people of both genders don't exist but it is rarer. If strength is genetic then removing even a few could have exponential effects down the line. Powerful women usually become sisters and don't reproduce. Powerful men usually go mad or get killed by the Red.

    That isn't the only reason for the decline of the Tower since their recruitment, politics, and acceptance by society all contribute as well. The Tower was losing influence since Arthur Hawkwing. The Children are making any who might seek the tower out afraid. The Tower didn't seem to search for wilders often and instead relied on people seeking them out.
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  7. #4407
    Quote Originally Posted by ItsRainingMetal View Post
    I just finished the first book and it was amazing. I ordered all the rest as well. :P With that being said I can see why some people are frustrated with the show. Just comparing the first book with the first season of the show I think the writers really murdered the source material. They have given moments from some characters to other characters, many of the locations are wrong and they replaced some characters completely with some totally unrelated characters and parts of the story in the show doesn't happen at all in the book, but maybe that has to do with stuff happening in the next book Dunno.

    WTF is that ending in season 1 though. There is hardly any comparison with the book version other than they are in the same general area. I mean. I was wondering why the world saving hero was being so pathetic and weak in the show, but it's just because they stripped him of his Super Saiyan moment in the end of the book and gave it to Egwene and Nynaeve and the 4 other nameless randoms.
    The worse thing about the show is there replacements are so much worse - you wonder why didn't they just stick with the books - it's all laid out there. Then there is such a high level of inconsistency and just mediocre production - the Wheel of Time deserved better.

  8. #4408
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    The worse thing about the show is there replacements are so much worse - you wonder why didn't they just stick with the books - it's all laid out there. Then there is such a high level of inconsistency and just mediocre production - the Wheel of Time deserved better.
    No studio will adapt 1:1 of the books. It would even be hard to fit a book into 26 episodes that is common for non-streaming television. Even Robert Jordan knew this.

    https://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=144#11
    Robert Jordan
    It's a chancey thing. I would not support anyone doing a feature film of, say, The Eye of the World. I do not think it could be compressed into three hours. Certainly not into two. That would make it incomprehensible. But... [end of this side of the tape] ... the screenwriter makes further changes, because, although it's a collaborative effort, if the director says I don't like this, do it some other way, do it this way, and the screenwriter does that. And if the screenwriter doesn't do that, they'll get another screenwriter. And then the actor says, "I don't believe this character would say this." And the actress says I don't want to do that, see, I want to do it this way, so they change the dialogue, and they change the scene. And the director, again, comes up and says, "I think it should be done in this fashion," and he shapes it.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  9. #4409
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Male channellers have been culled as well with madness and being hunted. Robert Jordan has said that in the Age of Legends 2 to 3% of the population could channel in some fashion. At the time of the books it is about 1%. (https://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=189#13) Males going mad or being killed have contributed to the reduction. The Tower not having kids has contributed as well.
    I wouldn’t put much stock in that having to do with the white tower and gentling though given that he says the world not just those the white posed pull from, unless Jordan said they are by far the biggest population in the world.

    The Seafolk Aiel and Seanchan would be counted within that population drop and they notable don’t have the same issue that the white tower theorizes, with the Aiel at least also sending all its men to die which is effectively the same as gentling them.

    The sisters not having any kids could be the source of the discrepancy assuming the Seanchan let there “pets” breed, but the culling of men shouldn’t be an issue.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  10. #4410
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    The Seafolk Aiel and Seanchan would be counted within that population drop and they notable don’t have the same issue that the white tower theorizes, with the Aiel at least also sending all its men to die which is effectively the same as gentling them.
    They do but just not to the same extent as the White Tower since they don't have the other type of recruitment issues. Shara is the only place that has been breeding for the One Power. As males who could channel were intentionally used to produce offspring. They were killed at the age of 21 or first sign of channeling. This is likely why the Forsaken were so interested in them and they were used at the Last Battle.

    I recall that Seanchan was finding fewer as well but can't find any reference to that to confirm my recollection.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  11. #4411
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    I have no respect for this trash of a show. Gaudy and disrespectful to the author.
    and yet you remain

    Agenda driven shit show, that could have been so much better.
    oh you;re one of those

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Koriani View Post
    I've never given two shits when reading the books, about this. It sounds like a question for a discussion with pre-teen girls (Or one to setup how the show fails...cuz Mace...).
    it seems like a good example of how bottom of the barrel the people on this forum are for a discussion. "these people aren't as attractive as i think they should be, my subjective opinion is all that matters, garbage show"

    why can't these prepubescent "men" just move on?

  12. #4412
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    The sisters not having any kids could be the source of the discrepancy assuming the Seanchan let there “pets” breed, but the culling of men shouldn’t be an issue.
    Seanchan considered having sex with damane to be disgusting and anyone who would be caught doing it would be dishonored so if it happens it would be extremely rare. The real outlier is the Sharrans who pretty much practice channeling eugenics.

  13. #4413
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Seanchan considered having sex with damane to be disgusting and anyone who would be caught doing it would be dishonored so if it happens it would be extremely rare. The real outlier is the Sharrans who pretty much practice channeling eugenics.
    Well ya but given how wide spread slavery/being property is in Seanchan I wouldn’t be surprised if there was some “breeding” going on by atleast some of the blood.

    Not that I think we ever see enough of Seanchan to know beyond what’s her face princess mentioning bedding them to Mat.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  14. #4414
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Well ya but given how wide spread slavery/being property is in Seanchan I wouldn’t be surprised if there was some “breeding” going on by atleast some of the blood.

    Not that I think we ever see enough of Seanchan to know beyond what’s her face princess mentioning bedding them to Mat.
    Still, if it does happen it's not something common and certainly it's not done on an industrial scale like with Sharrans keeping male channelers as breeding stock and executing them when they reach their early 20s

  15. #4415
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Seanchan considered having sex with damane to be disgusting and anyone who would be caught doing it would be dishonored so if it happens it would be extremely rare. The real outlier is the Sharrans who pretty much practice channeling eugenics.
    We don't know to what extent though. They consider it acceptable that property is used as sex slaves or raped (Suroth has rape as a punishment). Toun says some sneak in to rape damane because they can't move (or think they can't move). She thinks it is disgusting but that doesn't necessarily mean it is something held by the entire empire.

    Damane are seen more like pets or livestock which is why it would be seen as disgusting over a normal slave.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  16. #4416
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I think the Pattern's needs trumps genetics. Close to the end of the era, the Pattern pretty much produced enough people to force things to go forward including more powerful channelers and more of them.
    Mazrim Taim said as much. Rand, and the Pattern bending to his desire to rival the White Tower.

  17. #4417
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Stumbled upon this today, and it looks like if nothing else the show has kicked off more interest in the series given that I think the eye of the world comic came out in like 2012 and then the series was dropped.
    https://www.dynamite.com/htmlfiles/v...13033602601011
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  18. #4418
    Finished the 2nd book and, honestly, I think it's fair to say the show is only inspired by the books and only follows them in very broad strokes. I mean, besides a couple of things here and there, there is not much in common between them.

    I will try to enjoy the show for what it is, even if I don't think it's a true adaptation of Robert Jordans Wheel of Time :P

  19. #4419
    Scarab Lord Skizzit's Avatar
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    Trucking my way through the novels, started book 9, and is it just me or did Jordan have a spanking fetish or something? I have heard people talk about the braid pulling and constant mentioning of what every single person in every single room is wearing but no one mentioned the constant talk of spanking in this series. Just about every other chapter there is someone saying something about spanking, "bending someone/getting bent over someone's knee", switching, or strapping. Just something I noticed.

    Overall I am still enjoying the series although I got real close to dropping it again around books 6-7 due entirely to a single storyline, the Ebou Dar one. Never have I had a series make me dislike two main characters as fast as that part did. I already wasn't the biggest fan of Nynaeve but the way both her and Elayne started acting all high and mighty and trying to undermind Mat's leadership of his men for seemingly no reason was annoying as hell. And they never got any comeuppance for it either eventually getting what they wanted. Also wasn't a fan of the way Mat was basically raped and it being treated as a joke both by the writer and the other characters. Just really uncomfortable. Other that that though it has been solid although boy, was the Sammael confrontation a let down. Dude was built up for multiple novels only for Rand to confront him and deal with him in a single chapter and it not even being Rand who ultimately takes him out. Guessing he is still alive though since otherwise that will be really weak.

    Side note, are the Aes Sedai supposed to be seen as a flawed and broken group? They remind me of the Jedi Order in the prequels. A group of people who run around telling everyone what to do and acting like they know everything while constantly being proven wrong.

  20. #4420
    Quote Originally Posted by Skizzit View Post
    Side note, are the Aes Sedai supposed to be seen as a flawed and broken group? They remind me of the Jedi Order in the prequels. A group of people who run around telling everyone what to do and acting like they know everything while constantly being proven wrong.
    Yes, pretty much. The Aes Sedai are pretty damn useless. They do get much better by the end of the series.

    And the Matt thing is uncomfortable. It really is telling of Jordan's age. I mean we have to keep in mind this was written by a Vietnam vet. Beyond the fact that his understanding of consent and gender relations is several generations back, so much of what you see in the novels is him processing his own trauma. E.g. in an interview he explained that the reason Rand is unwilling to hurt women is because of his own reaction when he realized one of the combatants he killed in the war was female.

    I would say, his Conan books are very good if anyone likes Conan, he is considered the best Conan writer outside Howard himself. And up to book 10 he was pretty much writing one massive book per year, he only really slowed down later on the last two books (and was probably already ill by the time he started book 11)
    Last edited by Nymrohd; 2023-11-23 at 05:30 PM.

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