[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Cynical Asshole]

Very few people care about how fragile your masculinity is, dude.

Just enough to tank every movie and tv show with such themes.

[Nymrohd]

Just enough to tank every movie and tv show with such themes.

Except all the ones it did not tank and did amazing in the box office (or similarly for games). Bad shows and movies do badly. Some bad shows also happen to be woke. Do you want to go down that top 100 and see how many feature a diverse cast and female MCs girlbossing?

[En Sabah Nur]

Just enough to tank every movie and tv show with such themes.

Except all the ones that didn't tank lol But bless you, you tried.

[Cynical Asshole]

Except all the ones it did not tank and did amazing in the box office (or similarly for games). Bad shows and movies do badly. Some bad shows also happen to be woke. Do you want to go down that top 100 and see how many feature a diverse cast and female MCs girlbossing?

Except all the ones that didn't tank lol But bless you, you tried.

Like what? The only one that comes to mind is Fallout, and in that show the MC was hardly a girlboss, she was more like a fish out of water as the character is supposed to be, nor was the cast very "diverse and inclusive".

Meanwhile there is Star Trek Discovery, Batwoman, Rings of Power, She-Hulk, Willow, Star Wars: The Acolyte, and the latest "masterpiece", Snow White, and others that don't come to mind right now.

[Gumble]

Except all the ones that didn't tank lol But bless you, you tried.

You are not incorrect that there have been plenty of movies and TV shows that features the themes the other poster is talking about that have done well. One could argue they did well IN SPITE of those themes, but I tend to think it is more a less interesting reason.

Prior to about 2016 (argue why at your leisure), shows and movies that tried those themes still followed the rule of "do what you want, but try to make the product entertaining FIRST". My first thought is Charlie's Angels with Lucy Liu and Drew Barrymore. That certainly hits on a ton of those tropes, but it was designed to be fun and entertaining FIRST. Movies and shows in the past 10 years have put their agendas front and foremost in their consideration, from their writing to their casting/directing/themes/marketting. They ignored making GOOD products in order to APPEAR GOOD to others while making them.

It would be like if I showed you my art and you said "but that's just a pile of shit" and I replied "Ah but its an ETHICALLY SOURCED pile of shit." And then preened at you expecting to be praised for my goodness.

You'd roll your eyes and walk away too....... same as the audience has done for all of this trash.

[bledgor]

You are not incorrect that there have been plenty of movies and TV shows that features the themes the other poster is talking about that have done well. One could argue they did well IN SPITE of those themes, but I tend to think it is more a less interesting reason.

Prior to about 2016 (argue why at your leisure), shows and movies that tried those themes still followed the rule of "do what you want, but try to make the product entertaining FIRST". My first thought is Charlie's Angels with Lucy Liu and Drew Barrymore. That certainly hits on a ton of those tropes, but it was designed to be fun and entertaining FIRST. Movies and shows in the past 10 years have put their agendas front and foremost in their consideration, from their writing to their casting/directing/themes/marketting. They ignored making GOOD products in order to APPEAR GOOD to others while making them.

It would be like if I showed you my art and you said "but that's just a pile of shit" and I replied "Ah but its an ETHICALLY SOURCED pile of shit." And then preened at you expecting to be praised for my goodness.

You'd roll your eyes and walk away too....... same as the audience has done for all of this trash.

Another issue is how much spite so many directors/actors seem to at least now openly being displaying for their fans/fandoms. I am not saying you have to accept every person that likes your show/tv/source material, but so many times I see directors/actors showing open hostility to huge chunks of it.

In the case of this show Rafe really seemed to hate fans of the books.

[Biomega]

Another issue is how much spite so many directors/actors seem to at least now openly being displaying for their fans/fandoms. I am not saying you have to accept every person that likes your show/tv/source material, but so many times I see directors/actors showing open hostility to huge chunks of it.

In the case of this show Rafe really seemed to hate fans of the books.

Certainly seems to be more common than it should, and it baffles me. Part of a general trend of hostility from people who otherwise would situate themselves as progressive, liberal thinkers. Yet somehow they increasingly turn into irate, irrational monomaniacs whose tunnel-vision focus on their respective issues du jour serves not as a guidepost but a warning sign. And these people are ostensibly champions of product, sold for money? How is that supposed to function? Far be it for me to demand lickspittle pandering the way we see it in some areas (hi there, professional athletes!) but this kind of FUCK YOU DON'T BUY IT THEN, ASSHOLE messaging in a supposedly economic venture - let alone product aspiring to broad cultural relevancy - does not exactly appear to be succeeding. And that from a part of the political spectrum to whom you're-either-with-us-or-against-us hardlining used to be anathema.

We're quite a few years into the social-media paradigm, are companies not concerned about this kind of public-facing communication?

[Gumble]

Another issue is how much spite so many directors/actors seem to at least now openly being displaying for their fans/fandoms. I am not saying you have to accept every person that likes your show/tv/source material, but so many times I see directors/actors showing open hostility to huge chunks of it.

In the case of this show Rafe really seemed to hate fans of the books.

Of course he does. They don't think he is smarter than Jordan.

This issue you bring up not too difficult to figure out. Budgets for shows and movies have skyrocketted. Either you make something for very little money and GOOD LUCK on getting people to actually see it without Mat Cauthon levels of luck, or you make things with budgets that are astronomical. Amazon is a perfect example of this, throwing 100s of millions of dollars at shows they have ZERO idea on if they will work or not.

Because of this, because studios want to make a big return on their investment (they all want to be Marvel before Marvel sucked), so making stories that are new and don't have inherent fan bases is super risky. As much as people say they want original stories, most of those stories don't sell. Nobody bothers to see them. This was fine when studios would make a bunch of smaller movies and shows and see what sticks, but they don't want to do that now.

So they get sold IPs with fandoms and proven track records and then cast a person to shepherd that into a show. However, most of the people they pick have no desire to make someone else's story. They want to make THEIR story. THEIR ideas. THEIR baby come to life. They resent being "forced" (I'm sure they see it that way) to make someone else's story, so they try to change it into their own story by distorting the original work so much that it bares little to no resemblence to the original. I've heard it refered to best as them making their story while wearing a skinsuit of the IP.

They don't want to make classic stories that most people love. They hate those. They want to make their own personal story that speaks to them, but nobody wants to fund that because an audience of 1 doesn't sell. They hate being forced to work on projects with fandoms because those people will always push back on their "new ideas". The fact that their new ideas suck, nobody wants to see them, and they make no money never really matters to them.

They are resentful of the place they are in, and hate the fans for it. Rafe was just more honest about it. He told fans up front he hated them and enjoyed ruining the IP they loved.

Because nobody cares about his ideas.

[rhorle]

They are resentful of the place they are in, and hate the fans for it. Rafe was just more honest about it. He told fans up front he hated them and enjoyed ruining the IP they loved.

A lot of your post is inaccurate and things that you've created to have a soapbox. Existing IP's been used in Hollywood for decades. Amazon doesn't always throw 100s of millions at all of their shows or films. There still are a lot of original works. There is also nothing wrong with adapting existing IPs. Fans get to see content and new people might get attracted to the franchise. It was stated during Season 1 of Wheel of Time book sales increased by 7%.

I wonder why show runners might hate fans that are out of touch and think they have it all figured out, lol.

[Ivanstone]

Because nobody cares about his ideas.

He got paid for 3 seasons of work.

Which is more than the Critical Clickbaiter will ever get. How much work did it take to transcribe that wall of text from one of his videos?

[Syegfryed]

He got paid for 3 seasons of work.

Which is more than the Critical Clickbaiter will ever get. How much work did it take to transcribe that wall of text from one of his videos?

Well at least he get more viewers than the tv show

[Ivanstone]

Well at least he get more viewers than the tv show

I'd ask you to provide a citation for that but you'll probably not read the citation just like you haven't read the books or watched the show.

[Rennadrel]

Of course he does. They don't think he is smarter than Jordan.

This issue you bring up not too difficult to figure out. Budgets for shows and movies have skyrocketted. Either you make something for very little money and GOOD LUCK on getting people to actually see it without Mat Cauthon levels of luck, or you make things with budgets that are astronomical. Amazon is a perfect example of this, throwing 100s of millions of dollars at shows they have ZERO idea on if they will work or not.

Because of this, because studios want to make a big return on their investment (they all want to be Marvel before Marvel sucked), so making stories that are new and don't have inherent fan bases is super risky. As much as people say they want original stories, most of those stories don't sell. Nobody bothers to see them. This was fine when studios would make a bunch of smaller movies and shows and see what sticks, but they don't want to do that now.

So they get sold IPs with fandoms and proven track records and then cast a person to shepherd that into a show. However, most of the people they pick have no desire to make someone else's story. They want to make THEIR story. THEIR ideas. THEIR baby come to life. They resent being "forced" (I'm sure they see it that way) to make someone else's story, so they try to change it into their own story by distorting the original work so much that it bares little to no resemblence to the original. I've heard it refered to best as them making their story while wearing a skinsuit of the IP.

They don't want to make classic stories that most people love. They hate those. They want to make their own personal story that speaks to them, but nobody wants to fund that because an audience of 1 doesn't sell. They hate being forced to work on projects with fandoms because those people will always push back on their "new ideas". The fact that their new ideas suck, nobody wants to see them, and they make no money never really matters to them.

They are resentful of the place they are in, and hate the fans for it. Rafe was just more honest about it. He told fans up front he hated them and enjoyed ruining the IP they loved.

Because nobody cares about his ideas.

Which is interesting given that shows like Reacher and The Terminal List have been very well received without having super high budgets. The thing with fantasy is that aesthetic is a huge part of what makes an interesting world. The fact that they use so much CGI drives up the costs, because building scale sets takes longer than it does to produce a CGI environment, but it is also horribly soulless. I think that Peter Jackson did it right by having scale models built of the major set pieces like Helms Deep and Minas Tirith instead of just using CGI to try and create an environment that lacks the touch of human hands.

- - - Updated - - -

He got paid for 3 seasons of work.

Which is more than the Critical Clickbaiter will ever get. How much work did it take to transcribe that wall of text from one of his videos?

Funny that. Last I checked, Drinker was a published author and at least he can maintain a sustainable viewership, so cope and seethe. And I am not even a fan of his, but I am familiar with his abrasive nature. But hey, at least he is brutally honest about his biases.

[Arikara]

A lot of your post is inaccurate and things that you've created to have a soapbox.

On the contrary, Gumble was being entirely correct, while you are once again making a clown of yourself. But some things never change, do they?

[Ivanstone]

Funny that. Last I checked, Drinker was a published author and at least he can maintain a sustainable viewership, so cope and seethe. And I am not even a fan of his, but I am familiar with his abrasive nature. But hey, at least he is brutally honest about his biases.

"Published author" that had to turn to alt-right grifting to make money. Pretty much a budget Ben Shapiro.

[rhorle]

On the contrary, Gumble was being entirely correct

Except Amazon doesn't always throw hundreds of millions at original content. They also do a lot of focus testing with their Preview program. So they have ideas of what will and will not work. Amusingly they are still sending out surveys to people in regards to Season 3 of Wheel of Time even though it is cancelled. They also give out giftcards/incentives for people to watch and comment on pre-release stuff.

They were not entirely correct. Even Peter Jackson didn't make Tolkien's story. And he is celebrated as making a really good adaptation. Which again shows they can't be entirely correct. Because all adaptations create a story of the person adapting the work.

[Rennadrel]

"Published author" that had to turn to alt-right grifting to make money. Pretty much a budget Ben Shapiro.

"Everyone who doesn't ascribe to my worldview and hates what I like is a Nazi" kind of attitude you seem to have towards people who have their own opinions on things. And so what if he panders to an audience? Doesn't make a lot of what he says wrong, either. Especially given that diehard fans of WoT have shit on this dumpster fire of a show since day one for being a disgusting misrepresentation of the source material.

[Ivanstone]

"Everyone who doesn't ascribe to my worldview and hates what I like is a Nazi" kind of attitude you seem to have towards people who have their own opinions on things. And so what if he panders to an audience? Doesn't make a lot of what he says wrong, either. Especially given that diehard fans of WoT have shit on this dumpster fire of a show since day one for being a disgusting misrepresentation of the source material.

I didn't say he's a nazi. I said he's an alt-right grifter. I am also entitled to an opinion which includes things like saying the Critical Clickbaiter is an idiot. Furthermore, the specific point I was making was that Gumble frequently complains about the lack of originality in modern storytelling yet all he does is parrots the complaints of others (the Clickbaiter in particular). He has no original thoughts of his own.

As for the show? There are some diehard fans who like the show.

Personally I think its a softcore porno where a bunch of ladies talk constantly about the straight white male lead. Pretty much an inverse Bechdel test. Maybe that's what the original novels are like. I dunno if I want to read a bloated 12 novels series.

Oh well, final season was decent. Didn't think about Wynonna Earp even once! So naturally after passing the Earp test it gets cancelled. Just like Earp.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Personally I think it’s a softcore porno where a bunch of ladies talk constantly about the straight white male lead. Pretty much an inverse Bechdel test. Maybe that's what the original novels are like. I dunno if I want to read a bloated 12 novels series.

Proabbly like 80% of most of the woman’s “screen” time in the books, though the porno bits don’t start till book 5.

[Xath]

Proabbly like 80% of most of the woman’s “screen” time in the books, though the porno bits don’t start till book 5.

Ah yes because the massive chunks of time in the tower and while captive is purely spent talking about Rand /s try actually reading the books.