[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Biomega]

I think the only one pretending there's only one option is you. Either they follow the books exactly or it sucks.

Sorry, but that's YOUR dichotomy. I'm not saying "books or gtfo", you are - I'm fine with changes that make sense, and there's any number of them that don't follow the book yet I have no problem with. But just because there's two options that are both bad and both don't follow the book doesn't mean I'm in a binary mind about it, and claiming that I am is a pretty clumsy attempt at strawmanning.

[rhorle]

Alternatively, having all four of them be Ta'Verren just makes sense with the approach they are taking... and it keeps the potential mystery of who the Dragon Reborn is alive for people that haven't read the books. Which is the majority of the audience.

It is the entire audience. They are changing core things about the characters and their motivations so you can't assume anything about the show and the direction they are going. I'm about part way through the first episode and I really hate the changes they have made to the characters story. I get things have to change for the TV show and to adapt the story to that but so far it doesn't feel like they had to make those changes.

It likely won't matter to those who haven't read the books but it seems a really bad choice when trying to appeal to fans of the books. It is a decent show but not a decent Wheel of Time. Though it is at least better then the horrible production the company that owns the rights did in the past. But that was just the bare minimum needed to keep the rights.

[Deianeira]

I already know that he is wiping his butt with RJ's concept of souls being reborn the same as they were and likely with the one power split.

YOu guys realise that the "one of your four is the Dragon" is because of pople that has NOT read the books. Too keep them hooked on the "who is the Dragon?"

Also i cannot see the Dragon being any other then Rand. And also if the Dragon had been women, does that mean they would channel Saidin?

[Theangryone]

We will see if the two sides of the one power makes it to the show. Reds are angry but the “this power was only meant for women” line doesn’t inspire confidence along with the “we don’t know know man or woman”. I suspect we will get a better idea in ep 4.

[Egomaniac]

Sorry, but that's YOUR dichotomy. I'm not saying "books or gtfo", you are - I'm fine with changes that make sense, and there's any number of them that don't follow the book yet I have no problem with. But just because there's two options that are both bad and both don't follow the book doesn't mean I'm in a binary mind about it, and claiming that I am is a pretty clumsy attempt at strawmanning.

You haven't given any reason as to why they are bad choices.

[Corvus]

So there was an image released that showed Loial. It is a different look they are going with. And he is a lot shorter than book Loial. I guess that was only to be expected.

[Greyvax]

Never read the books, and knew nothing about the story.

It's sometimes hard to get into high fantasy stories (due to the depth, amount of characters and their motivations, setting names and descriptions). So far, I'm enjoying it though after 3 eps. Can't wait to see what the rest of the season brings.

One thing I noticed was I'm definitely getting legend of the seeker vibes from this.

[Redwyrm]

I didn't have any major complaints about the first three episodes. I don't get the hate for Lan's portrayal so far. He's as close to book accurate as you can get. The same for Thom and his cloak. I read that people were complaining that is wasn't the patched multicolor version of the book. So the patches are on the inside, not that big of a change. At least not something to get upset about. My only concern was the change to Perrin and him being married. In the books Perrin isn't given much to do at first so that is the only reason i can see why they made the change.

As far as book accuracy I think Episode 2 was very close to the book. While episode 3 took a few shortcuts that I can understand. Perrin not meeting Elyas and Mat/Rand not getting on the boat are acceptable cuts for moving the plot along. Especially the boat. And leaving out Min could mean they are leaving out the prophecy side of the books altogether. While the prophecies in the books were a fun way to create mystery about future events, translating that to live action could create more problems than it solves. And if they decide to avoid the three wives part of the books, than Min doesn't rally offer much to the story.

[Biomega]

You haven't given any reason as to why they are bad choices.

Of course I have. Changing the Dragon Reborn to a woman is silly because the big danger is that male channelers go insane while female ones don't - that's why everyone is afraid of the Dragon Reborn returning. If that wasn't a danger, the whole Dragon Reborn thing wouldn't be a big deal in the world.

And pretending like it COULD be a woman but then revealing it never really could have because it was always going to be Rand is stupid because it's insulting to pretend equity exists when you know all along there's no chance of it actually being the case. That's like saying "you go girl, you could be the CEO too!" and then ending with "but let's be real, the man was always going to get the job".

Both changes are idiotic. Not because they're "not how it was in the book" but because they don't make sense and/or are insultingly stupid writing.

[Theangryone]

Never read the books, and knew nothing about the story.

It's sometimes hard to get into high fantasy stories (due to the depth, amount of characters and their motivations, setting names and descriptions). So far, I'm enjoying it though after 3 eps. Can't wait to see what the rest of the season brings.

One thing I noticed was I'm definitely getting legend of the seeker vibes from this.

You should, Terry Goodkind straight up stole whole concepts from WoT and put them in the Sword of Truth series

[Egomaniac]

You should, Terry Goodkind straight up stole whole concepts from WoT and put them in the Sword of Truth series

Sword of Truth is Goodkind's love letter to Ayn Rand masquerading as a fantasy series that presents itself as if it were "Wheel of Time: The Snyder Cut"

[Triceron]

No, I'm angry because these are both two bad options. You're portraying it as though those were the ONLY options, which is at best disingenuous.

Imagine you getting a sandwich at a restaurant and it's moldy, then sending it back and getting a rotten one instead - and the waiter goes "well I guess you were just going to be angry no matter what we do". That's not how it works, so don't portray it like that, please.

Cept the sandwich isn't actually moldy and you're looking for things to complain like the soup being too cold or the sandwich having too much mustard for your tastes. And really that's fine to complain about but it's certainly not some universal bad like you think it is.

If others are enjoying what you don't like, then it can't really be compared to being moldy just because you personally didn't like the changes. This isn't a universal standard of bad we're talking about.

Granted, I don't particularly care for the changes nor am I defending the writing, which I fully regard as spotty, but they aren't as bad as you are making them out to be. It's not a moldy sandwich for the majority of people who are watching it. Just like any adaptation will have its dubious choices for the sake of appealing to a more general audience and throwing in more drama for the sake of drama, because this is TV we're talking about. End of the day, this is a made for TV series, not a cohesive world as told in the books. They're throwing in changes that make no sense to those who pay attention to the details, but really the series is not made for the details at all and it's a broad strokes adaptation for a broad audience that aims to capitalize on the GoT fantasy craze, that's all.

The cohesive story telling is probably the last thing to get out of any TV adaptation. And it's not moldy just because it doesn't suit your tastes, my point being more that it's likely that TV adaptations of fantasy may simply not be suitable for your particular needs.

Outside of the LOTR movies, there really aren't that many fantasy adaptations that really stay true to the source material. This especially if we're talking TV series.

[Biomega]

Cept the sandwich isn't actually moldy and you're looking for things to complain like the soup being too cold or the sandwich having too much mustard for your tastes. And really that's fine to complain about but it's certainly not some universal bad like you think it is.

I mean, why do we have to go from one strawman to another? How did "I hate these two options" turn into "universal bad"? Can people really not differentiate between "I'm unhappy with this thing and this other thing" and "I'm unhappy with EVERYTHING" anymore?

[Wonderment2]

For a series I'd only heard about the show was yeah... not great??

Minotaurs, led by a knockoff ring wraith, attack a village with a group of friends one of whom is possibly a reincarnation of the one who "broke the world" (which tbh the world looks very intact). There's some lawful stupid paladins burning all the magic people and magic city of unexplained death. Also some gender politics stuff which is barley touched upon, where men go made if they're magic?

Beyond the general idea of reincarnation nothing about the show seems very interesting.

I assume the books are better

[Theangryone]

Sword of Truth is Goodkind's love letter to Ayn Rand masquerading as a fantasy series that presents itself as if it were "Wheel of Time: The Snyder Cut"

Fair assessment

[Triceron]

I mean, why do we have to go from one strawman to another? How did "I hate these two options" turn into "universal bad"? Can people really not differentiate between "I'm unhappy with this thing and this other thing" and "I'm unhappy with EVERYTHING" anymore?

Because a moldy sandwich is not a criticism of preference. It's universally bad. No one will go out of their way to vouch for a moldy sandwich at any restaurant.


If you're unhappy with it, that's fine. But really, what you're unhappy with is literally a personal preference issue more than anything, and your comparison was stretched beyond personal preference, it was deeming the adaptation (or parts of it) as being rotten, which really it isn't. It's definitely not a great or faithful adaptation, but it's not rotten either.

[Egomaniac]

Of course I have. Changing the Dragon Reborn to a woman is silly because the big danger is that male channelers go insane while female ones don't - that's why everyone is afraid of the Dragon Reborn returning. If that wasn't a danger, the whole Dragon Reborn thing wouldn't be a big deal in the world.

And pretending like it COULD be a woman but then revealing it never really could have because it was always going to be Rand is stupid because it's insulting to pretend equity exists when you know all along there's no chance of it actually being the case. That's like saying "you go girl, you could be the CEO too!" and then ending with "but let's be real, the man was always going to get the job".

Both changes are idiotic. Not because they're "not how it was in the book" but because they don't make sense and/or are insultingly stupid writing.

That whole thing about "equity" applies just as much to Perrin and Matt as it does to Egwene. That "CEO position" is being dangled in thier face as much as it is Egwene's.... but Rand's gonna be the big winner there... if you consider having the fate of the world resting on your shoulders a win. With the added kicker that you might just go completely crazy and make everything worse.

As far as "gender equity" goes...women in WoT can channel the One Power without going insane...so Egwene's already kind of ahead of the game. And yeah, This version of Moirraine is probably really hoping it is Egwene...so she doesn't have to deal with the added complication of trying to keep the Dragon Reborn from going insane before saving the world. Really would be the best thing for everyone.

[Torvald]

Just watched the opening episodes. I'm astounded how bad it is. I appreciate that adaptions need to make changes, but you expect respectful changes based on necessity and playing to the medium, not... whatever garbage this was. This isn't some reflexive "purist" thing, you can really feel when changes are driven by someone who respects a story vs. someone who wants to hijack a story with little respect for the original. This comes across as the latter.

Perrin being married and accidentally killing his wife? Holy crap. What idiot writer thought that was a good idea as the starting point in the series for Perrin? It comes across as some very clumsy writers wanting to copy the Game of Thrones "random horrible bad things can happen to people" vibe with zero forethought. Perrin starting the story with an event that would cause incredible, crushing, soul-destroying guilt for the rest of his life and loom over the character forever afterward is an insane thing to add to an adaptation. The little touch of them starting the first episode by showing Perrin drinking with his friends while his WIFE works the forge also felt... well, very 2021, but that's a minor quibble compared to the absurdity of having Perrin accidentally axe her.

And adaption or not, Wheel of Time has an excellent prologue that does a great job at setting the stage. They threw that away. The opening monologue replacing it was just... awful. No real sense of respect for what the original Dragon DID accomplish, which is a pretty big deal - the 100 Companions actually did imprison the Dark One and the prison held for a couple thousand years up until the series starts, but the monologue makes you think it was just some giant total failure of an effort, rather than something that stopped the Dark One from winning the ancient war at the price of their sanity afterwards. It felt written by someone who wanted to be like, "damn MEN, they're so arrogant, everything bad is because of them." I suppose the speech would have fit if the opening was being monologued by a Red Ajah, but it didn't feel fitting to Moiraine at all.

The minor touch of "the Dragon could be any one of you four" also felt disrespectful to the premise. The books never remotely entertain the notion that the Dragon could have been anything other than a man. It is utterly inherent to the story. Massive preparations, prophecies referencing "him", etc., have built up to the return of the man who would wield the male half of the Source and face the Dark One. Little lines from Moiraine in this TV series like, "The Dragon, whoever SHE or he may be..." just come across as very stupid inserts. I remember when I read the books way back, and one of the actual draws to the series was how unique the gender dynamics were - women guiding the world, the only ones able to wield magic safely, the history of the male wielders. The opening episode should have made far better use of that draw, and instead it squanders it and wastes precious time on awful dialogue and crappy exposition.

The cheapest aspect of this production, and the thing they had longest to prepare, was the writing. There is no excuse for an adaptation to be this badly written. This makes Shannara look well thought out. It feels like something written by the B-Team at the CW.

[Biomega]

Because a moldy sandwich is not a criticism of preference. It's universally bad. No one will go out of their way to vouch for a moldy sandwich at any restaurant.

But that's not the point. The analogy works even if you swap it out for something preferential, like idk I ordered a pork sandwich and you got me chicken salad, I sent it back and you brought me roast beef. Etc. Did you seriously not understand that analogy?

If you're unhappy with it, that's fine. But really, what you're unhappy with is literally a personal preference issue more than anything, and your comparison was stretched beyond personal preference, it was deeming the adaptation (or parts of it) as being rotten, which really it isn't. It's definitely not a great or faithful adaptation, but it's not rotten either.

So you're saying me being unhappy is personal preference, but you're justified in calling it "not great"? Is that not personal preference, too? Of course it is. Because we're not dealing with objective truth here. ANY assessment of the show is going to be subjective, and pointing that out is as useful as a toilet paper umbrella. But you're misrepresenting things, because I've not JUST said "I don't like it", I've given what I think are fairly detailed justifications for that opinion. To portray that as "oh it's just preference" is a little disingenuous. I'm interested in debate, not simply pitting one simple opinion against another. How about offering something substantial as a rebuttal? WHY is NOT a problem for the show to suggest the Dragon Reborn could be a woman?

===EDIT===

That whole thing about "equity" applies just as much to Perrin and Matt as it does to Egwene.

No. Not "just as much". There's a diegetic reason for the possibility - watching male ta'veren as to whether or not they are the Dragon Reborn substantially shapes the plot, because there is a real danger (them going insane) that affects how they are treated; and how they are treated in turn affects everything else that follows in the plot. That doesn't work for Egwene, because the entire premise doesn't hold for a woman (since female channelers don't go insane). I'm talking about intradiegetic consistency here, not extradiegetic knowledge. If that was an argument, you could just go "oh come on we all know how it ends why is there drama and action if we know the bad guys will lose" which is just nonsense for obvious reasons.

As far as "gender equity" goes...women in WoT can channel the One Power without going insane...so Egwene's already kind of ahead of the game. And yeah, This version of Moirraine is probably really hoping it is Egwene...so she doesn't have to deal with the added complication of trying to keep the Dragon Reborn from going insane before saving the world. Really would be the best thing for everyone.

Except that doesn't work in the way the world is set up, because the plot is centered around the ambiguous nature of the Dragon Reborn. That's the whole reason the Aes Sedai became what they are now, why the Red Ajah is so strong, why male channelers are such a big problem, etc. etc. An entire catalog of world-building and world-defining events rests on that singular problem, and if you do away with it there's a SUBSTANTIAL shift in the ENTIRE plot.

Of course it would super easy if Egwene was the Dragon, just had her shit together, marched against the Dark One with everyone's support, easy ending, done and dusted. But that's like saying "hey but what if Anakin didn't turn to the dark side, that'd solve a lot of problems" - yeah no shit BUT THAT'S NOT HOW THE STORY GOES.

[Triceron]

But that's not the point. The analogy works even if you swap it out for something preferential, like idk I ordered a pork sandwich and you got me chicken salad, I sent it back and you brought me roast beef. Etc. Did you seriously not understand that analogy?

Then use a better analogy.

Rotten food is universally bad, and you were making that direct comparison of being offered food that is considered universally bad. That's not a preference, that's not criticism of the food itself, it's just pointing out something that was universally considered wrong. So I seriously did understand the analogy, and am pointing out that it's not an analogy that you should have made.

Nor does the pork and chicken salad work either, since it's obvious you're ordering the wrong thing rather than the network serving you something you didn't order at all. A better analogy is if you ordered a pork sandwich knowing it's a pork sandwich but you didn't expect it prepared in a way that offended your preferences, like if they added cranberry sauce or too much mayo for your tastes. And that's fine if that is your criticism, but it's really not applicable to saying they served you the wrong food when you're not the only customer at the restaurant, and the analogy would imply that the restaurant serves other guests and not just you. You didn't make an analogy about a personal chef, right? You said restaurant, so the analogy would imply that others are being served the same thing. And if we take a look at your particular criticisms and compare them to that of the general state of the series; well there's quite a disconnect between your personal beefs and considering it as them serving everyone the wrong meal.

If you want an analogy that applies to your personal criticisms, then you shouldn't be making comparisons to a restaurant that serves every customer the same meal while making the criticism that they're serving you the wrong one, which implies that they're pushing this problem on to everyone else and other people are dealing with the problem in their own way. But really, it's not a problem at all, it's just a matter of changes, for better or worse. That comes with being an adaptation, and not a close-to-the-source direct translation of the book.

So you're saying me being unhappy is personal preference, but you're justified in calling it "not great"?

I'm not the one making analogies about the series being equivalent of universally bad rotten food. If that's the analogy you made, that's the message you pushed across, whether you intended to or not.

As I said, nothing wrong with you presenting your personal opinion. But if you're going to make an analogy out of it, then work on communicating it more properly, because the ones you used only consider how you personally feel, while you're using examples that apply much more broadly and to a wider audience than yourself. By implying 'the restaurant serves moldy food' you also imply that this restaurant serves rotten food to everyone, since we're all literally consuming the same content. We're eating the same meal as you are here. It might not be what you want to say, but that's all a part of your analogy.

And my point is, even though the show is far from great (IMO), it's clearly not considered rotten, at least not in the way you presented your analogy. The analogy only works for your particular tastes if we're talking about everyone being able to order a different meal, but let's remember we're literally talking about the same show, the same meal, and there's no way the restaurant can single you out and present the wrong meal while everyone else has theirs correct. The analogy doesn't work that way with this type of content. We're all consuming the exact same thing. If the food is rotten, then everyone's food is rotten. That's how the analogy applies here. There's no menu of options of 'Wheel of Time TV series'. It's one series we're all talking about.

How about offering something substantial as a rebuttal? WHY is NOT a problem for the show to suggest the Dragon Reborn could be a woman?

The creators have their choices. I'm in no position to defend their choices since I don't vouch for decisions like this. I simply don't see it as impactful as you do when considering if the Dragon Reborn could be a woman or not.

The way I interpret the TV series, Moraine has taken the 4 away to protect them. In the context of this adaptation, the viewers don't know who or what the Dragon is, yet they know the 4 characters are important. If it was a clear 'he/him', then we automatically know Egwene is not the important one. Yet the show clearly wants to illustrate some importance onto her character, and keep it ambiguous since she was so far the only one in the show who shows any skill in 'magical powers' at that point in the show. I would consider this the writers wanting to add in a minor red herring to keep the audience guessing. For the book readers who know the ins and out, this will seem like a travesty, but for a casual TV series watcher, it opens up people vouching for Egwene (or even Nynaeve) as a possible candidate and helps get people get invested into the character.

Is it a good change? Can't say either way, since the series is completely new and I don't know any casual peeps talking about this show yet. But the way I see the change as a casual audience goer, this is clearly written with purpose to elevate interest in the female character. And whether this pays off or not is something we have to see in retrospect. It really depends on how loosely they want to adapt this and how many 'moments' they want to give Egwene over the course of the series to make her more of a fan favourite. The way I see this is similar to Arwen having more 'moments' in the LOTR beyond her very limited appearances in the book. It's to give more investment and interest in the character to a broader audience, and for that I don't really see it as a 'good or bad' thing. I simply see it as a change made in an adaptation which has its own purposes as a different medium than a novel.

I'd almost say it's like how the Mandalorian spent the entire first season setting up the rules of being a Mandalorian, which went against a whole bunch of established Star Wars lore like Mandalorians being able to take off their helmets (Sabine Wren, the Mandalorians in Clone Wars and Rebels). So something like that was a huge setup that ended up being pretty much a 'red herring' once we find out that Mando is part of some fringe cult and that it's not how the world outside actually regards Mandalorians or what they know. It gets clarified back to the original canon. I can kinda see this happen the same way eventually, when the Dragon Reborn is finally unveiled everyone just moves past the 'She' part as if it never really mattered since the canon remains the same after we find out who it is anyways. But hey, I'm not a hardcore WoT fan so I can't speak out on how important this really is, all I'm presenting is a possible (clear to me) reason why they changed this, and why overall I don't think it will be world-changing in the end. Again, I'm neither defending or denouncing the changes, I'm simply pointing out why I think they exist and for what reasons, and why I don't think they're going to matter much in the end. If there's something more defined from the books about the Dragon having to be male for XYZ reasons, then it's obvious the TV series hasn't really adhered to the same rulesets since it's not establishing any hard rules that the Dragon must be a male (at least not from Moraine's POV).