1. #581
    Quote Originally Posted by Theangryone View Post
    If they were worried about equality, they would not have made Egwene Ta’Veren. In the books, only her and Nynaeve had any personal agency as it was their choice to leave the Two Rivers with Rand, Mat and Perrin. In making her Ta’Veren she no longer has any agency as the Wheel is going to push in the direction of fate and prophecy.
    Alternatively, having all four of them be Ta'Verren just makes sense with the approach they are taking... and it keeps the potential mystery of who the Dragon Reborn is alive for people that haven't read the books. Which is the majority of the audience.

    That's what a lot of people don't seem to grasp. The TV series is meant to appeal to a broader demographic base.

    As for Agency...that goes both ways. Yes, Ta'verren are destined for great things and you could see that as "losing agency"...but they aren't really forced any particular way. And the people around them get caught up in that as well...so they too lose agency. Was it really their choice to leave the Two Rivers...or were they just pulled along?

    So, either Egwene loses agency because she's spent her entire life in the pull of 3 Ta'Verren...or she loses agency because she's one herself.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    No, I'm angry because these are both two bad options. You're portraying it as though those were the ONLY options, which is at best disingenuous.

    Imagine you getting a sandwich at a restaurant and it's moldy, then sending it back and getting a rotten one instead - and the waiter goes "well I guess you were just going to be angry no matter what we do". That's not how it works, so don't portray it like that, please.
    I think the only one pretending there's only one option is you. Either they follow the books exactly or it sucks.

  2. #582
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    I will see if I can give it a chance in the upcoming days. What I can say is that it was painful to watch the 12,5 mins that I watched (before I couldnt put up with it anymore).
    The acting was as stiff as rigor mortis and for the first time in many years I was baffled about the results of a sound team. The sound was just FLAT with no sense of room or immersion whatsoever. They could have recorded it in a restroom at McDonalds for all I could tell.

    But, I will give it a try and watch at least 1,5-2 eps since I love the genre and that ~15 mins isnt really giving it a shot.
    I dont have high hopes though, my school plays in 5th grade had better acting.
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  3. #583
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    I think the only one pretending there's only one option is you. Either they follow the books exactly or it sucks.
    Sorry, but that's YOUR dichotomy. I'm not saying "books or gtfo", you are - I'm fine with changes that make sense, and there's any number of them that don't follow the book yet I have no problem with. But just because there's two options that are both bad and both don't follow the book doesn't mean I'm in a binary mind about it, and claiming that I am is a pretty clumsy attempt at strawmanning.

  4. #584
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    Alternatively, having all four of them be Ta'Verren just makes sense with the approach they are taking... and it keeps the potential mystery of who the Dragon Reborn is alive for people that haven't read the books. Which is the majority of the audience.
    It is the entire audience. They are changing core things about the characters and their motivations so you can't assume anything about the show and the direction they are going. I'm about part way through the first episode and I really hate the changes they have made to the characters story. I get things have to change for the TV show and to adapt the story to that but so far it doesn't feel like they had to make those changes.

    It likely won't matter to those who haven't read the books but it seems a really bad choice when trying to appeal to fans of the books. It is a decent show but not a decent Wheel of Time. Though it is at least better then the horrible production the company that owns the rights did in the past. But that was just the bare minimum needed to keep the rights.
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  5. #585
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    I already know that he is wiping his butt with RJ's concept of souls being reborn the same as they were and likely with the one power split.
    YOu guys realise that the "one of your four is the Dragon" is because of pople that has NOT read the books. Too keep them hooked on the "who is the Dragon?"

    Also i cannot see the Dragon being any other then Rand. And also if the Dragon had been women, does that mean they would channel Saidin?

  6. #586
    We will see if the two sides of the one power makes it to the show. Reds are angry but the “this power was only meant for women” line doesn’t inspire confidence along with the “we don’t know know man or woman”. I suspect we will get a better idea in ep 4.

  7. #587
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Sorry, but that's YOUR dichotomy. I'm not saying "books or gtfo", you are - I'm fine with changes that make sense, and there's any number of them that don't follow the book yet I have no problem with. But just because there's two options that are both bad and both don't follow the book doesn't mean I'm in a binary mind about it, and claiming that I am is a pretty clumsy attempt at strawmanning.
    You haven't given any reason as to why they are bad choices.

  8. #588
    So there was an image released that showed Loial. It is a different look they are going with. And he is a lot shorter than book Loial. I guess that was only to be expected.

  9. #589
    Never read the books, and knew nothing about the story.

    It's sometimes hard to get into high fantasy stories (due to the depth, amount of characters and their motivations, setting names and descriptions). So far, I'm enjoying it though after 3 eps. Can't wait to see what the rest of the season brings.

    One thing I noticed was I'm definitely getting legend of the seeker vibes from this.

  10. #590
    I didn't have any major complaints about the first three episodes. I don't get the hate for Lan's portrayal so far. He's as close to book accurate as you can get. The same for Thom and his cloak. I read that people were complaining that is wasn't the patched multicolor version of the book. So the patches are on the inside, not that big of a change. At least not something to get upset about. My only concern was the change to Perrin and him being married. In the books Perrin isn't given much to do at first so that is the only reason i can see why they made the change.

    As far as book accuracy I think Episode 2 was very close to the book. While episode 3 took a few shortcuts that I can understand. Perrin not meeting Elyas and Mat/Rand not getting on the boat are acceptable cuts for moving the plot along. Especially the boat. And leaving out Min could mean they are leaving out the prophecy side of the books altogether. While the prophecies in the books were a fun way to create mystery about future events, translating that to live action could create more problems than it solves. And if they decide to avoid the three wives part of the books, than Min doesn't rally offer much to the story.

  11. #591
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    You haven't given any reason as to why they are bad choices.
    Of course I have. Changing the Dragon Reborn to a woman is silly because the big danger is that male channelers go insane while female ones don't - that's why everyone is afraid of the Dragon Reborn returning. If that wasn't a danger, the whole Dragon Reborn thing wouldn't be a big deal in the world.

    And pretending like it COULD be a woman but then revealing it never really could have because it was always going to be Rand is stupid because it's insulting to pretend equity exists when you know all along there's no chance of it actually being the case. That's like saying "you go girl, you could be the CEO too!" and then ending with "but let's be real, the man was always going to get the job".

    Both changes are idiotic. Not because they're "not how it was in the book" but because they don't make sense and/or are insultingly stupid writing.

  12. #592
    Quote Originally Posted by Greyvax View Post
    Never read the books, and knew nothing about the story.

    It's sometimes hard to get into high fantasy stories (due to the depth, amount of characters and their motivations, setting names and descriptions). So far, I'm enjoying it though after 3 eps. Can't wait to see what the rest of the season brings.

    One thing I noticed was I'm definitely getting legend of the seeker vibes from this.
    You should, Terry Goodkind straight up stole whole concepts from WoT and put them in the Sword of Truth series

  13. #593
    Quote Originally Posted by Theangryone View Post
    You should, Terry Goodkind straight up stole whole concepts from WoT and put them in the Sword of Truth series
    Sword of Truth is Goodkind's love letter to Ayn Rand masquerading as a fantasy series that presents itself as if it were "Wheel of Time: The Snyder Cut"

  14. #594
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    No, I'm angry because these are both two bad options. You're portraying it as though those were the ONLY options, which is at best disingenuous.

    Imagine you getting a sandwich at a restaurant and it's moldy, then sending it back and getting a rotten one instead - and the waiter goes "well I guess you were just going to be angry no matter what we do". That's not how it works, so don't portray it like that, please.
    Cept the sandwich isn't actually moldy and you're looking for things to complain like the soup being too cold or the sandwich having too much mustard for your tastes. And really that's fine to complain about but it's certainly not some universal bad like you think it is.

    If others are enjoying what you don't like, then it can't really be compared to being moldy just because you personally didn't like the changes. This isn't a universal standard of bad we're talking about.

    Granted, I don't particularly care for the changes nor am I defending the writing, which I fully regard as spotty, but they aren't as bad as you are making them out to be. It's not a moldy sandwich for the majority of people who are watching it. Just like any adaptation will have its dubious choices for the sake of appealing to a more general audience and throwing in more drama for the sake of drama, because this is TV we're talking about. End of the day, this is a made for TV series, not a cohesive world as told in the books. They're throwing in changes that make no sense to those who pay attention to the details, but really the series is not made for the details at all and it's a broad strokes adaptation for a broad audience that aims to capitalize on the GoT fantasy craze, that's all.

    The cohesive story telling is probably the last thing to get out of any TV adaptation. And it's not moldy just because it doesn't suit your tastes, my point being more that it's likely that TV adaptations of fantasy may simply not be suitable for your particular needs.

    Outside of the LOTR movies, there really aren't that many fantasy adaptations that really stay true to the source material. This especially if we're talking TV series.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-11-21 at 04:50 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  15. #595
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Cept the sandwich isn't actually moldy and you're looking for things to complain like the soup being too cold or the sandwich having too much mustard for your tastes. And really that's fine to complain about but it's certainly not some universal bad like you think it is.
    I mean, why do we have to go from one strawman to another? How did "I hate these two options" turn into "universal bad"? Can people really not differentiate between "I'm unhappy with this thing and this other thing" and "I'm unhappy with EVERYTHING" anymore?
    Last edited by Biomega; 2021-11-21 at 04:45 AM.

  16. #596
    For a series I'd only heard about the show was yeah... not great??

    Minotaurs, led by a knockoff ring wraith, attack a village with a group of friends one of whom is possibly a reincarnation of the one who "broke the world" (which tbh the world looks very intact). There's some lawful stupid paladins burning all the magic people and magic city of unexplained death. Also some gender politics stuff which is barley touched upon, where men go made if they're magic?

    Beyond the general idea of reincarnation nothing about the show seems very interesting.

    I assume the books are better

  17. #597
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    Sword of Truth is Goodkind's love letter to Ayn Rand masquerading as a fantasy series that presents itself as if it were "Wheel of Time: The Snyder Cut"
    Fair assessment

  18. #598
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    I mean, why do we have to go from one strawman to another? How did "I hate these two options" turn into "universal bad"? Can people really not differentiate between "I'm unhappy with this thing and this other thing" and "I'm unhappy with EVERYTHING" anymore?
    Because a moldy sandwich is not a criticism of preference. It's universally bad. No one will go out of their way to vouch for a moldy sandwich at any restaurant.


    If you're unhappy with it, that's fine. But really, what you're unhappy with is literally a personal preference issue more than anything, and your comparison was stretched beyond personal preference, it was deeming the adaptation (or parts of it) as being rotten, which really it isn't. It's definitely not a great or faithful adaptation, but it's not rotten either.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-11-21 at 05:11 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  19. #599
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Of course I have. Changing the Dragon Reborn to a woman is silly because the big danger is that male channelers go insane while female ones don't - that's why everyone is afraid of the Dragon Reborn returning. If that wasn't a danger, the whole Dragon Reborn thing wouldn't be a big deal in the world.

    And pretending like it COULD be a woman but then revealing it never really could have because it was always going to be Rand is stupid because it's insulting to pretend equity exists when you know all along there's no chance of it actually being the case. That's like saying "you go girl, you could be the CEO too!" and then ending with "but let's be real, the man was always going to get the job".

    Both changes are idiotic. Not because they're "not how it was in the book" but because they don't make sense and/or are insultingly stupid writing.
    That whole thing about "equity" applies just as much to Perrin and Matt as it does to Egwene. That "CEO position" is being dangled in thier face as much as it is Egwene's.... but Rand's gonna be the big winner there... if you consider having the fate of the world resting on your shoulders a win. With the added kicker that you might just go completely crazy and make everything worse.

    As far as "gender equity" goes...women in WoT can channel the One Power without going insane...so Egwene's already kind of ahead of the game. And yeah, This version of Moirraine is probably really hoping it is Egwene...so she doesn't have to deal with the added complication of trying to keep the Dragon Reborn from going insane before saving the world. Really would be the best thing for everyone.

  20. #600
    Just watched the opening episodes. I'm astounded how bad it is. I appreciate that adaptions need to make changes, but you expect respectful changes based on necessity and playing to the medium, not... whatever garbage this was. This isn't some reflexive "purist" thing, you can really feel when changes are driven by someone who respects a story vs. someone who wants to hijack a story with little respect for the original. This comes across as the latter.

    Perrin being married and accidentally killing his wife? Holy crap. What idiot writer thought that was a good idea as the starting point in the series for Perrin? It comes across as some very clumsy writers wanting to copy the Game of Thrones "random horrible bad things can happen to people" vibe with zero forethought. Perrin starting the story with an event that would cause incredible, crushing, soul-destroying guilt for the rest of his life and loom over the character forever afterward is an insane thing to add to an adaptation. The little touch of them starting the first episode by showing Perrin drinking with his friends while his WIFE works the forge also felt... well, very 2021, but that's a minor quibble compared to the absurdity of having Perrin accidentally axe her.

    And adaption or not, Wheel of Time has an excellent prologue that does a great job at setting the stage. They threw that away. The opening monologue replacing it was just... awful. No real sense of respect for what the original Dragon DID accomplish, which is a pretty big deal - the 100 Companions actually did imprison the Dark One and the prison held for a couple thousand years up until the series starts, but the monologue makes you think it was just some giant total failure of an effort, rather than something that stopped the Dark One from winning the ancient war at the price of their sanity afterwards. It felt written by someone who wanted to be like, "damn MEN, they're so arrogant, everything bad is because of them." I suppose the speech would have fit if the opening was being monologued by a Red Ajah, but it didn't feel fitting to Moiraine at all.

    The minor touch of "the Dragon could be any one of you four" also felt disrespectful to the premise. The books never remotely entertain the notion that the Dragon could have been anything other than a man. It is utterly inherent to the story. Massive preparations, prophecies referencing "him", etc., have built up to the return of the man who would wield the male half of the Source and face the Dark One. Little lines from Moiraine in this TV series like, "The Dragon, whoever SHE or he may be..." just come across as very stupid inserts. I remember when I read the books way back, and one of the actual draws to the series was how unique the gender dynamics were - women guiding the world, the only ones able to wield magic safely, the history of the male wielders. The opening episode should have made far better use of that draw, and instead it squanders it and wastes precious time on awful dialogue and crappy exposition.

    The cheapest aspect of this production, and the thing they had longest to prepare, was the writing. There is no excuse for an adaptation to be this badly written. This makes Shannara look well thought out. It feels like something written by the B-Team at the CW.

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