1. #601
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Because a moldy sandwich is not a criticism of preference. It's universally bad. No one will go out of their way to vouch for a moldy sandwich at any restaurant.
    But that's not the point. The analogy works even if you swap it out for something preferential, like idk I ordered a pork sandwich and you got me chicken salad, I sent it back and you brought me roast beef. Etc. Did you seriously not understand that analogy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    If you're unhappy with it, that's fine. But really, what you're unhappy with is literally a personal preference issue more than anything, and your comparison was stretched beyond personal preference, it was deeming the adaptation (or parts of it) as being rotten, which really it isn't. It's definitely not a great or faithful adaptation, but it's not rotten either.
    So you're saying me being unhappy is personal preference, but you're justified in calling it "not great"? Is that not personal preference, too? Of course it is. Because we're not dealing with objective truth here. ANY assessment of the show is going to be subjective, and pointing that out is as useful as a toilet paper umbrella. But you're misrepresenting things, because I've not JUST said "I don't like it", I've given what I think are fairly detailed justifications for that opinion. To portray that as "oh it's just preference" is a little disingenuous. I'm interested in debate, not simply pitting one simple opinion against another. How about offering something substantial as a rebuttal? WHY is NOT a problem for the show to suggest the Dragon Reborn could be a woman?

    ===EDIT===
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    That whole thing about "equity" applies just as much to Perrin and Matt as it does to Egwene.
    No. Not "just as much". There's a diegetic reason for the possibility - watching male ta'veren as to whether or not they are the Dragon Reborn substantially shapes the plot, because there is a real danger (them going insane) that affects how they are treated; and how they are treated in turn affects everything else that follows in the plot. That doesn't work for Egwene, because the entire premise doesn't hold for a woman (since female channelers don't go insane). I'm talking about intradiegetic consistency here, not extradiegetic knowledge. If that was an argument, you could just go "oh come on we all know how it ends why is there drama and action if we know the bad guys will lose" which is just nonsense for obvious reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    As far as "gender equity" goes...women in WoT can channel the One Power without going insane...so Egwene's already kind of ahead of the game. And yeah, This version of Moirraine is probably really hoping it is Egwene...so she doesn't have to deal with the added complication of trying to keep the Dragon Reborn from going insane before saving the world. Really would be the best thing for everyone.
    Except that doesn't work in the way the world is set up, because the plot is centered around the ambiguous nature of the Dragon Reborn. That's the whole reason the Aes Sedai became what they are now, why the Red Ajah is so strong, why male channelers are such a big problem, etc. etc. An entire catalog of world-building and world-defining events rests on that singular problem, and if you do away with it there's a SUBSTANTIAL shift in the ENTIRE plot.

    Of course it would super easy if Egwene was the Dragon, just had her shit together, marched against the Dark One with everyone's support, easy ending, done and dusted. But that's like saying "hey but what if Anakin didn't turn to the dark side, that'd solve a lot of problems" - yeah no shit BUT THAT'S NOT HOW THE STORY GOES.
    Last edited by Biomega; 2021-11-21 at 06:58 AM.

  2. #602
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    But that's not the point. The analogy works even if you swap it out for something preferential, like idk I ordered a pork sandwich and you got me chicken salad, I sent it back and you brought me roast beef. Etc. Did you seriously not understand that analogy?
    Then use a better analogy.

    Rotten food is universally bad, and you were making that direct comparison of being offered food that is considered universally bad. That's not a preference, that's not criticism of the food itself, it's just pointing out something that was universally considered wrong. So I seriously did understand the analogy, and am pointing out that it's not an analogy that you should have made.

    Nor does the pork and chicken salad work either, since it's obvious you're ordering the wrong thing rather than the network serving you something you didn't order at all. A better analogy is if you ordered a pork sandwich knowing it's a pork sandwich but you didn't expect it prepared in a way that offended your preferences, like if they added cranberry sauce or too much mayo for your tastes. And that's fine if that is your criticism, but it's really not applicable to saying they served you the wrong food when you're not the only customer at the restaurant, and the analogy would imply that the restaurant serves other guests and not just you. You didn't make an analogy about a personal chef, right? You said restaurant, so the analogy would imply that others are being served the same thing. And if we take a look at your particular criticisms and compare them to that of the general state of the series; well there's quite a disconnect between your personal beefs and considering it as them serving everyone the wrong meal.

    If you want an analogy that applies to your personal criticisms, then you shouldn't be making comparisons to a restaurant that serves every customer the same meal while making the criticism that they're serving you the wrong one, which implies that they're pushing this problem on to everyone else and other people are dealing with the problem in their own way. But really, it's not a problem at all, it's just a matter of changes, for better or worse. That comes with being an adaptation, and not a close-to-the-source direct translation of the book.

    So you're saying me being unhappy is personal preference, but you're justified in calling it "not great"?
    I'm not the one making analogies about the series being equivalent of universally bad rotten food. If that's the analogy you made, that's the message you pushed across, whether you intended to or not.

    As I said, nothing wrong with you presenting your personal opinion. But if you're going to make an analogy out of it, then work on communicating it more properly, because the ones you used only consider how you personally feel, while you're using examples that apply much more broadly and to a wider audience than yourself. By implying 'the restaurant serves moldy food' you also imply that this restaurant serves rotten food to everyone, since we're all literally consuming the same content. We're eating the same meal as you are here. It might not be what you want to say, but that's all a part of your analogy.

    And my point is, even though the show is far from great (IMO), it's clearly not considered rotten, at least not in the way you presented your analogy. The analogy only works for your particular tastes if we're talking about everyone being able to order a different meal, but let's remember we're literally talking about the same show, the same meal, and there's no way the restaurant can single you out and present the wrong meal while everyone else has theirs correct. The analogy doesn't work that way with this type of content. We're all consuming the exact same thing. If the food is rotten, then everyone's food is rotten. That's how the analogy applies here. There's no menu of options of 'Wheel of Time TV series'. It's one series we're all talking about.

    How about offering something substantial as a rebuttal? WHY is NOT a problem for the show to suggest the Dragon Reborn could be a woman?
    The creators have their choices. I'm in no position to defend their choices since I don't vouch for decisions like this. I simply don't see it as impactful as you do when considering if the Dragon Reborn could be a woman or not.

    The way I interpret the TV series, Moraine has taken the 4 away to protect them. In the context of this adaptation, the viewers don't know who or what the Dragon is, yet they know the 4 characters are important. If it was a clear 'he/him', then we automatically know Egwene is not the important one. Yet the show clearly wants to illustrate some importance onto her character, and keep it ambiguous since she was so far the only one in the show who shows any skill in 'magical powers' at that point in the show. I would consider this the writers wanting to add in a minor red herring to keep the audience guessing. For the book readers who know the ins and out, this will seem like a travesty, but for a casual TV series watcher, it opens up people vouching for Egwene (or even Nynaeve) as a possible candidate and helps get people get invested into the character.

    Is it a good change? Can't say either way, since the series is completely new and I don't know any casual peeps talking about this show yet. But the way I see the change as a casual audience goer, this is clearly written with purpose to elevate interest in the female character. And whether this pays off or not is something we have to see in retrospect. It really depends on how loosely they want to adapt this and how many 'moments' they want to give Egwene over the course of the series to make her more of a fan favourite. The way I see this is similar to Arwen having more 'moments' in the LOTR beyond her very limited appearances in the book. It's to give more investment and interest in the character to a broader audience, and for that I don't really see it as a 'good or bad' thing. I simply see it as a change made in an adaptation which has its own purposes as a different medium than a novel.

    I'd almost say it's like how the Mandalorian spent the entire first season setting up the rules of being a Mandalorian, which went against a whole bunch of established Star Wars lore like Mandalorians being able to take off their helmets (Sabine Wren, the Mandalorians in Clone Wars and Rebels). So something like that was a huge setup that ended up being pretty much a 'red herring' once we find out that Mando is part of some fringe cult and that it's not how the world outside actually regards Mandalorians or what they know. It gets clarified back to the original canon. I can kinda see this happen the same way eventually, when the Dragon Reborn is finally unveiled everyone just moves past the 'She' part as if it never really mattered since the canon remains the same after we find out who it is anyways. But hey, I'm not a hardcore WoT fan so I can't speak out on how important this really is, all I'm presenting is a possible (clear to me) reason why they changed this, and why overall I don't think it will be world-changing in the end. Again, I'm neither defending or denouncing the changes, I'm simply pointing out why I think they exist and for what reasons, and why I don't think they're going to matter much in the end. If there's something more defined from the books about the Dragon having to be male for XYZ reasons, then it's obvious the TV series hasn't really adhered to the same rulesets since it's not establishing any hard rules that the Dragon must be a male (at least not from Moraine's POV).
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-11-21 at 10:29 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  3. #603
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    Sword of Truth is Goodkind's love letter to Ayn Rand masquerading as a fantasy series that presents itself as if it were "Wheel of Time: The Snyder Cut"
    I do recall hearing that Richard Rahl does become John Galt. An acquaintance of mine couldn't even finish "Faith of the Fallen" because of it.

  4. #604
    Man, I am so disappointed. I'm always the one to brush aside the changes when a story swaps mediums, but holy nuts.

    Perrin chilldrinking with his bromies while his new wife toils at the forge? Who is this and what have you done with the almost annoyingly protective Perrin? And then he randomly axes her by mistake, how did someone read Perrin's arc and think that would nail it on the silver screen?

    Iirc in the original Egwene joins the squad leaving the Two Rivers on her own and Moiraine accepts her because of her latent powers, which is a much better way of showing us how determined and independent she is. Considering where she ends up she did not need to be forced into the bonkers Dragon Reborn plotline. Which is also just insane, it would upend all the worldbuilding in the books.

    Nynaeve stubbornly tracking the youths and refusing to back down to keep them safe is a whole lot better than the Tomb Raider survival scene they gave us instead. The acting is very spot on for Nynaeve though I will give her that. Minor nitpick: I don't think Nynaeve would ever use healing a dying person as leverage to get her way, she's borderline obsessed witj Healing.

    Two more minor ones: Lan telling Moiraine "ayy fam lotsa Trollocs gonna descend on this village we should split lol" made me wince internally, Lan would never suggest leaving Emond's Field to die. Moiraine might have for the greater good, but Lan would have loudly protested. And the Whitecloaks openly burning Aes Sedai and displaying their rings would never go down in the book world. They hate the witches but cannot do more than bully them if they can't ambush them where they can deny involvement. Because the White Tower is literally the strongest political faction led by magic wielders. They would tear Amadicia and their stronghold down around them if the Children openly brutalised and torched Aes Sedai like that, what the hell.

    I was hyped for so long for this show.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Then use a better analogy.

    Rotten food is universally bad, and you were making that direct comparison of being offered food that is considered universally bad. That's not a preference, that's not criticism of the food itself, it's just pointing out something that was universally considered wrong. So I seriously did understand the analogy, and am pointing out that it's not an analogy that you should have made.

    Nor does the pork and chicken salad work either, since it's obvious you're ordering the wrong thing rather than the network serving you something you didn't order at all. A better analogy is if you ordered a pork sandwich knowing it's a pork sandwich but you didn't expect it prepared in a way that offended your preferences, like if they added cranberry sauce or too much mayo for your tastes. And that's fine if that is your criticism, but it's really not applicable to saying they served you the wrong food when you're not the only customer at the restaurant, and the analogy would imply that the restaurant serves other guests and not just you. You didn't make an analogy about a personal chef, right? You said restaurant, so the analogy would imply that others are being served the same thing. And if we take a look at your particular criticisms and compare them to that of the general state of the series; well there's quite a disconnect between your personal beefs and considering it as them serving everyone the wrong meal.

    If you want an analogy that applies to your personal criticisms, then you shouldn't be making comparisons to a restaurant that serves every customer the same meal while making the criticism that they're serving you the wrong one, which implies that they're pushing this problem on to everyone else and other people are dealing with the problem in their own way. But really, it's not a problem at all, it's just a matter of changes, for better or worse. That comes with being an adaptation, and not a close-to-the-source direct translation of the book.



    I'm not the one making analogies about the series being equivalent of universally bad rotten food. If that's the analogy you made, that's the message you pushed across, whether you intended to or not.

    As I said, nothing wrong with you presenting your personal opinion. But if you're going to make an analogy out of it, then work on communicating it more properly, because the ones you used only consider how you personally feel, while you're using examples that apply much more broadly and to a wider audience than yourself. By implying 'the restaurant serves moldy food' you also imply that this restaurant serves rotten food to everyone, since we're all literally consuming the same content. We're eating the same meal as you are here. It might not be what you want to say, but that's all a part of your analogy.

    And my point is, even though the show is far from great (IMO), it's clearly not considered rotten, at least not in the way you presented your analogy. The analogy only works for your particular tastes if we're talking about everyone being able to order a different meal, but let's remember we're literally talking about the same show, the same meal, and there's no way the restaurant can single you out and present the wrong meal while everyone else has theirs correct. The analogy doesn't work that way with this type of content. We're all consuming the exact same thing. If the food is rotten, then everyone's food is rotten. That's how the analogy applies here. There's no menu of options of 'Wheel of Time TV series'. It's one series we're all talking about.



    The creators have their choices. I'm in no position to defend their choices since I don't vouch for decisions like this. I simply don't see it as impactful as you do when considering if the Dragon Reborn could be a woman or not.

    The way I interpret the TV series, Moraine has taken the 4 away to protect them. In the context of this adaptation, the viewers don't know who or what the Dragon is, yet they know the 4 characters are important. If it was a clear 'he/him', then we automatically know Egwene is not the important one. Yet the show clearly wants to illustrate some importance onto her character, and keep it ambiguous since she was so far the only one in the show who shows any skill in 'magical powers' at that point in the show. I would consider this the writers wanting to add in a minor red herring to keep the audience guessing. For the book readers who know the ins and out, this will seem like a travesty, but for a casual TV series watcher, it opens up people vouching for Egwene (or even Nynaeve) as a possible candidate and helps get people get invested into the character.

    Is it a good change? Can't say either way, since the series is completely new and I don't know any casual peeps talking about this show yet. But the way I see the change as a casual audience goer, this is clearly written with purpose to elevate interest in the female character. And whether this pays off or not is something we have to see in retrospect. It really depends on how loosely they want to adapt this and how many 'moments' they want to give Egwene over the course of the series to make her more of a fan favourite. The way I see this is similar to Arwen having more 'moments' in the LOTR beyond her very limited appearances in the book. It's to give more investment and interest in the character to a broader audience, and for that I don't really see it as a 'good or bad' thing. I simply see it as a change made in an adaptation which has its own purposes as a different medium than a novel.

    I'd almost say it's like how the Mandalorian spent the entire first season setting up the rules of being a Mandalorian, which went against a whole bunch of established Star Wars lore like Mandalorians being able to take off their helmets (Sabine Wren, the Mandalorians in Clone Wars and Rebels). So something like that was a huge setup that ended up being pretty much a 'red herring' once we find out that Mando is part of some fringe cult and that it's not how the world outside actually regards Mandalorians or what they know. It gets clarified back to the original canon. I can kinda see this happen the same way eventually, when the Dragon Reborn is finally unveiled everyone just moves past the 'She' part as if it never really mattered since the canon remains the same after we find out who it is anyways. But hey, I'm not a hardcore WoT fan so I can't speak out on how important this really is, all I'm presenting is a possible (clear to me) reason why they changed this, and why overall I don't think it will be world-changing in the end. Again, I'm neither defending or denouncing the changes, I'm simply pointing out why I think they exist and for what reasons, and why I don't think they're going to matter much in the end. If there's something more defined from the books about the Dragon having to be male for XYZ reasons, then it's obvious the TV series hasn't really adhered to the same rulesets since it's not establishing any hard rules that the Dragon must be a male (at least not from Moraine's POV).
    All souls in WoT have a specific sex/gender, so women are always reincarnated as women etc.

    The reason the Dragon being male is so important is that he's a historic figure in the world. Him and his companions pushed and sealed the Dark One in, and as revenge the Dark One poisoned the male half of the Source, making them all go mad and break the world.

    Hence why male channelers are feared and hated, but if the Dragon is suddenly a female the core plot of the entire saga, the Dragon Reborn dealing with learning to channel the male half knowing it'll turn him mad wouldn't exist. It also lowers tension, because peasants etc have less reason to be so afraid of the notion of the Dragon Reborn if it's a 50/50 chance the Dragon will be female and not suffer madness.

    They'll make Rand the Dragon for sure, it's a change that gives a character that is already a core story pusher little to no benefit while undermining a huge amount of worldbuilding.

  5. #605
    That landscape shot of the ruined skyscrapers that are basically mountains if you don't look close enough are the kind of enviromental easter eggs I'm all about, to get into some positivity. It's always weird to remember WoT is Post-Apocalyptic hyper-advanced Earth.

  6. #606
    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantique View Post


    All souls in WoT have a specific sex/gender, so women are always reincarnated as women etc.
    Mostly true. This was a major point that gets turned sideways for a later plot twist because the dark one does as they please and some MAJOR villains are brought back rule63'd for a major surprise as a female wielding Saidin turns more than a few through a loop.

  7. #607
    Finally watched it.


    It's a different take on the Robert Jordan one, but I don't think it captures the suspense, teror and excitement the book does. I think it would have been better if they just left things as is.


    But it was enjoyable for me.

    The whole Dragon may be female is just a nod to transgender people, I t has far less impact than I thought it would,

    I think the additions like Perrin's wife and Matt's sister were good calls, the problem with translating the book is that much of the suspense that makes it exciting is built up through description and internal dialogue - how do you do that in a film? or series to get the same effect.. so i think they took a shortcut and invented things about the others and showed things the books don't really mention to build the story.

    Jason Momoa would have made an excellent Lan
    Thom Merrilin was a perfect cast
    Rand was a perfect cast
    Moiraine was a great cast
    Nynaeve works well

    Jury is still out on matt, but I can think of a few others that amy have done it better

    Egwene and Perrin are not so fitting in my opinion
    Aram is supposed to be very very handsome (no offense to the actor - and yes, this is subjective, but the guy behind him at the back in the first scene we see him was better looking) )


    Knowing who Tam is from the book and reading the farm attack, I was rather disappointed that he couldn't fell one trolloc, while other in the village with far less expertise could.. that was a bad call..it diminishes the mystique of Tam which is an in-road to guessing Rand is the Dragon Reborn.

    it's a different show, staying closer to the book would have been better, it's still good, but overall disappointed, a great show would have improved on the book... imo it didn't.. i gave it an 8.5/10 because it did many things very well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantique View Post

    All souls in WoT have a specific sex/gender, so women are always reincarnated as women etc.

    .
    Also, another annoying change which makes the series more ordinary is shoving re-incarnation as a universal thing.. the way they mentioned it, ..everyone gets reincarnated, while in the book, that isn't true, only very important heroes get reincarnated.

    While it's not an essential to the plot specifically, as you can modify the Great Hunt's horn to just call heroes.. it dilutes the uniqueness of the story, and isn't the really hat Jordan wanted to show.


    I don't understand, if you thought a person's work was good enough to be made a film out of, why change so much?


    But then this is nothing new, read about Mary Poppins the movie.

  8. #608
    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    I think the additions like Perrin's wife and Matt's sister were good calls, the problem with translating the book is that much of the suspense that makes it exciting is built up through description and internal dialogue - how do you do that in a film? or series to get the same effect.. so i think they took a shortcut and invented things about the others and showed things the books don't really mention to build the story.
    Matt is fine other then him being more of a thief then a prankster. Maybe I just missed that in the books early on but it never came across that way to me. Perrin though I hate since him not having a family ties in perfectly with his abilities and role later. Killing his wife (or having one in the first place) changes that dynamic a little. He isn't the "lone wolf" with out a family anymore. He just lost his wife. It also sucked they didn't cover his abilities a little bit more in episode 3. They really should have included Elyas somehow even if just as a figure on the tree line.

    Instead of the axe and weapons of war thing it looks like it will be fear of hurting loved ones. It will be interesting to see how the tinkers interact with his character given the changes.

    The show is a good fantasy. Good "inspired by" the books but I still think it is a poor adaptation with some of the changes so far. And I hated the musical score during the Thom scenes. It is weirdly out of place. Also good point about the wheel and who is bound to it. Changes the importance of characters and actions and the meaning of Ta'veren, Pattern, and Wheel.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2021-11-21 at 05:14 PM.
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  9. #609
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Haven't read the books and went in with zero expectations and watched all 3 episodes this weekend and they were a pleasure to watch, it is a well constructed show so far.

    Reading comments on how it does not really follow the book for me is actually a good sign, as that means there is freedom allowed in moving it to another medium and allows people to do what works for this format rather than just sticking true to the books. Fans of an existing franchise are in general not a good target audience as they are highly critical as what it is never matches what it should be in their minds. I do believe there should be some quality control when a franchise changes medium but this is not a poorly made show so i am happy with the direction they took.

    I personally enjoyed it when they started speaking about the history of places and people what gives a fantasy story more substance.
    “My philosophy is: It’s none of my business what people say of me and think of me. I am what I am and I do what I do. I expect nothing and accept everything. And it makes life so much easier.
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  10. #610
    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    Reading comments on how it does not really follow the book for me is actually a good sign, as that means there is freedom allowed in moving it to another medium and allows people to do what works for this format rather than just sticking true to the books. Fans of an existing franchise are in general not a good target audience as they are highly critical as what it is never matches what it should be in their minds. I do believe there should be some quality control when a franchise changes medium but this is not a poorly made show so i am happy with the direction they took.
    Yea... I really wish they dismissed the fans of the books with GoT. /s

  11. #611
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Yea... I really wish they dismissed the fans of the books with GoT. /s
    So far i know the books and series have their differences and if you want to go into detail about that series you will have to find another thread and person to be honest.
    Staying true to the books do not make a series better due to it, neither does it make it worse. It does allow for more freedom and better adaptation of the material, so long the big lines remain the same i see no harm done.

    So yes i stand by my point that not using the hardcore fans of a franchise as the benchmark for your adaptation being it a movie, series or game is a good move. I do not feel the fans are entitled to anything, and i find that sense of entitlement to be really misplaced however the internet is full of armchair experts so it is to be expected
    “My philosophy is: It’s none of my business what people say of me and think of me. I am what I am and I do what I do. I expect nothing and accept everything. And it makes life so much easier.
    ― Anthony Hopkins

  12. #612
    Never read the books. The trailers for this show looks like a lame renaissance fair. I'll give it a shot and watch it though.

  13. #613
    Quote Originally Posted by Theangryone View Post
    If they were worried about equality, they would not have made Egwene Ta’Veren. In the books, only her and Nynaeve had any personal agency as it was their choice to leave the Two Rivers with Rand, Mat and Perrin. In making her Ta’Veren she no longer has any agency as the Wheel is going to push in the direction of fate and prophecy.
    Yeah but that would require actual thought and enjoyment of the series to understand. They just see Ta'Vern as special and don't understand they are forced into the direction the wheel wills.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deianeira View Post
    YOu guys realise that the "one of your four is the Dragon" is because of pople that has NOT read the books. Too keep them hooked on the "who is the Dragon?"

    Also i cannot see the Dragon being any other then Rand. And also if the Dragon had been women, does that mean they would channel Saidin?
    Because Moiraine was literally in the room while Gitra had the foretelling she and Siuan are the only living people to have witnessed that foretelling in which she said he multiple times. It doesn't work for Moiraine to not know it. If you write Gitra out you also write out that she was the one who told Tigraine she must journey into the waste and join the Sisters of the Spear for the sake of the world which is a pretty freaking important part of the storyline.

    It's also insanely insulting to claim that Moiraine would have no interest in Egwene of Nynaeve if not for the dragon she as much as says she would straight up kidnap them to bring them back to the tower because their power dwarfs that of any Aes Sedai in 100s of years. Egwene doesn't need to be "special" for Moiraine to want her because she and Nynaeve dwarf evey Aes Sedai in power outside Elayne and I don't think Moiraine even knows about Elayne at that time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    So far i know the books and series have their differences and if you want to go into detail about that series you will have to find another thread and person to be honest.
    Staying true to the books do not make a series better due to it, neither does it make it worse. It does allow for more freedom and better adaptation of the material, so long the big lines remain the same i see no harm done.

    So yes i stand by my point that not using the hardcore fans of a franchise as the benchmark for your adaptation being it a movie, series or game is a good move. I do not feel the fans are entitled to anything, and i find that sense of entitlement to be really misplaced however the internet is full of armchair experts so it is to be expected
    Here's a hint the exact moment when GoT went off the rails was when they ran out of book material.

  14. #614
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    I’ve only gone through the first episode so far and I can’t say in a big fan of the changes to
    Matt she Perrin.

    I don’t have the best memory of the first book( and I had the abridged version) but Matt being a legit theft coming from a broken family is a huge unneeded departure from just being a bit of a scandal who I want to said had a perfectly fine family who was just a bit disappointed in him.

    And the Perrin changes just seem like a complete bastardization with none of the super helpful hard working seemingly slow but actually just thoughtful parts coming through in any way. My friend even pointed out that Perrin’s wife seems to start the show with more of his actual characteristics and it might have just been better off to have her take his place and just play out the story the same but with her instead, not sure if I agree with that but I can see why they came to such a conclusion.

    Other then those two though the show seems fine even if some things like nyneve being kidnaped is unneeded and the one power weaving looks fairly awful.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  15. #615
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    Here's a hint the exact moment when GoT went off the rails was when they ran out of book material.
    If nothing else, Rafe doesn't have that excuse.

  16. #616
    I don’t know if I had an idea in my head what weaving the one power looked like, but it definitely didn’t look like tripping balls at burning man.

  17. #617
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    Mostly true. This was a major point that gets turned sideways for a later plot twist because the dark one does as they please and some MAJOR villains are brought back rule63'd for a major surprise as a female wielding Saidin turns more than a few through a loop.
    Yeah but TDO meddling with Balthamel just proves the rule that in WoT, the gender of the soul is the more important thing. If Balthamel hadn't ended up getting balefire'd, and, say, hadn't been reincarnated by TDO, he'd still have been reborn as a male eventually.

    But it seems these writers are too chickenshit to respect any of Jordan's worldbuilding.

  18. #618
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    If nothing else, Rafe doesn't have that excuse.
    There's absolutely ZERO excuse to be meddling with the story aside from cutting out filler storytelling which was part of RJ's world building. Most of the event sequences that happen in the books have some importance to the development of the story.

  19. #619
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Then use a better analogy.

    Rotten food is universally bad, and you were making that direct comparison of being offered food that is considered universally bad. That's not a preference, that's not criticism of the food itself, it's just pointing out something that was universally considered wrong. So I seriously did understand the analogy, and am pointing out that it's not an analogy that you should have made.

    Nor does the pork and chicken salad work either, since it's obvious you're ordering the wrong thing rather than the network serving you something you didn't order at all. A better analogy is if you ordered a pork sandwich knowing it's a pork sandwich but you didn't expect it prepared in a way that offended your preferences, like if they added cranberry sauce or too much mayo for your tastes. And that's fine if that is your criticism, but it's really not applicable to saying they served you the wrong food when you're not the only customer at the restaurant, and the analogy would imply that the restaurant serves other guests and not just you. You didn't make an analogy about a personal chef, right? You said restaurant, so the analogy would imply that others are being served the same thing. And if we take a look at your particular criticisms and compare them to that of the general state of the series; well there's quite a disconnect between your personal beefs and considering it as them serving everyone the wrong meal.

    If you want an analogy that applies to your personal criticisms, then you shouldn't be making comparisons to a restaurant that serves every customer the same meal while making the criticism that they're serving you the wrong one, which implies that they're pushing this problem on to everyone else and other people are dealing with the problem in their own way. But really, it's not a problem at all, it's just a matter of changes, for better or worse. That comes with being an adaptation, and not a close-to-the-source direct translation of the book.



    I'm not the one making analogies about the series being equivalent of universally bad rotten food. If that's the analogy you made, that's the message you pushed across, whether you intended to or not.

    As I said, nothing wrong with you presenting your personal opinion. But if you're going to make an analogy out of it, then work on communicating it more properly, because the ones you used only consider how you personally feel, while you're using examples that apply much more broadly and to a wider audience than yourself. By implying 'the restaurant serves moldy food' you also imply that this restaurant serves rotten food to everyone, since we're all literally consuming the same content. We're eating the same meal as you are here. It might not be what you want to say, but that's all a part of your analogy.

    And my point is, even though the show is far from great (IMO), it's clearly not considered rotten, at least not in the way you presented your analogy. The analogy only works for your particular tastes if we're talking about everyone being able to order a different meal, but let's remember we're literally talking about the same show, the same meal, and there's no way the restaurant can single you out and present the wrong meal while everyone else has theirs correct. The analogy doesn't work that way with this type of content. We're all consuming the exact same thing. If the food is rotten, then everyone's food is rotten. That's how the analogy applies here. There's no menu of options of 'Wheel of Time TV series'. It's one series we're all talking about.



    The creators have their choices. I'm in no position to defend their choices since I don't vouch for decisions like this. I simply don't see it as impactful as you do when considering if the Dragon Reborn could be a woman or not.

    The way I interpret the TV series, Moraine has taken the 4 away to protect them. In the context of this adaptation, the viewers don't know who or what the Dragon is, yet they know the 4 characters are important. If it was a clear 'he/him', then we automatically know Egwene is not the important one. Yet the show clearly wants to illustrate some importance onto her character, and keep it ambiguous since she was so far the only one in the show who shows any skill in 'magical powers' at that point in the show. I would consider this the writers wanting to add in a minor red herring to keep the audience guessing. For the book readers who know the ins and out, this will seem like a travesty, but for a casual TV series watcher, it opens up people vouching for Egwene (or even Nynaeve) as a possible candidate and helps get people get invested into the character.

    Is it a good change? Can't say either way, since the series is completely new and I don't know any casual peeps talking about this show yet. But the way I see the change as a casual audience goer, this is clearly written with purpose to elevate interest in the female character. And whether this pays off or not is something we have to see in retrospect. It really depends on how loosely they want to adapt this and how many 'moments' they want to give Egwene over the course of the series to make her more of a fan favourite. The way I see this is similar to Arwen having more 'moments' in the LOTR beyond her very limited appearances in the book. It's to give more investment and interest in the character to a broader audience, and for that I don't really see it as a 'good or bad' thing. I simply see it as a change made in an adaptation which has its own purposes as a different medium than a novel.

    I'd almost say it's like how the Mandalorian spent the entire first season setting up the rules of being a Mandalorian, which went against a whole bunch of established Star Wars lore like Mandalorians being able to take off their helmets (Sabine Wren, the Mandalorians in Clone Wars and Rebels). So something like that was a huge setup that ended up being pretty much a 'red herring' once we find out that Mando is part of some fringe cult and that it's not how the world outside actually regards Mandalorians or what they know. It gets clarified back to the original canon. I can kinda see this happen the same way eventually, when the Dragon Reborn is finally unveiled everyone just moves past the 'She' part as if it never really mattered since the canon remains the same after we find out who it is anyways. But hey, I'm not a hardcore WoT fan so I can't speak out on how important this really is, all I'm presenting is a possible (clear to me) reason why they changed this, and why overall I don't think it will be world-changing in the end. Again, I'm neither defending or denouncing the changes, I'm simply pointing out why I think they exist and for what reasons, and why I don't think they're going to matter much in the end. If there's something more defined from the books about the Dragon having to be male for XYZ reasons, then it's obvious the TV series hasn't really adhered to the same rulesets since it's not establishing any hard rules that the Dragon must be a male (at least not from Moraine's POV).
    The creator of the story is dead. So no these changes are not being approved by the creator.

  20. #620
    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    So far i know the books and series have their differences and if you want to go into detail about that series you will have to find another thread and person to be honest.
    Staying true to the books do not make a series better due to it, neither does it make it worse. It does allow for more freedom and better adaptation of the material, so long the big lines remain the same i see no harm done.

    So yes i stand by my point that not using the hardcore fans of a franchise as the benchmark for your adaptation being it a movie, series or game is a good move. I do not feel the fans are entitled to anything, and i find that sense of entitlement to be really misplaced however the internet is full of armchair experts so it is to be expected
    I have to disagree. Lord of the Rings, early Game of Thrones, Harry Potter...all very faithful adaptations that followed the books characters and development closely. They showed the source material the respect it deserved and came out extremely successful. I understand The Expanse to be following similar lines.

    What they did not do is decide Aragorn would be more relatable if he was more visually depressed. Or decide to ship Harry and Hermione because it's "more realistic." And, well, we know what happened to GoT when they took the story into their own hands. While each of the above franchises did cut content, minor characters, and skip some plot points they were careful to keep all the important subtle details. Whether or not new viewers understood them didn't matter, that's foreshadowing.

    It's the shows that change characters to make them "for TV," change or remove subtle details and meaningful points "for TV," those souls remove the soul of the story and of the characters. Even if it seems "fine" I guarantee people feel it, and it never bodes well for the future success of the show. What unhappy fans are noticing is the soul of the story being drained away by someone that thinks they can make it "better" for TV.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    The creator of the story is dead. So no these changes are not being approved by the creator.
    They even have a quote saying they often "agreed to disagree" with Sanderson, closest we have to a living author, and push on with w/e they wanted.

    In a reddit Sanderson himself says to "think of this as another turning of the wheel" and try not to look for the same story the books told.

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