[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Ragedaug]

Very important to the Books. Not disagreeing. Of course, they haven't, thus far, actually changed who the dragon reborn is, so it's not really a big deal yet. The only thing that's different is that prophecy is less specific regarding who TDR is.
...
They haven't made any major changes to the story yet. They've changed the wording of the prophecy

Having the Dragon capable of being either gender changes the story. There's important reasons all the Aes Sedai are female. There's important reasons the Reds hunt down and gentle any man caught channeling the One Power. Also to note, they had some of the most powerful Aes Sedai locking weaves around Logan, a self taught male, who's only been channeling the One Power for a handful of years, where you needed multiple of these very powerful Aes Sedai to hold the weave, and it was taking everything they had. Saidin and saidar are different and it's pretty important point and reason that the Dragon uses Saidin.

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That said, I think they are just messing with us. I suspect Rand will still be the dragon. The other differences feel more cosmetic, so they don't bother me so much. Overall I have enjoyed the series so far.

I suppose one thing that sticks in the back of my head, that I can overlook, but takes me out of the immersion is the way the show runners handled diversity in the series. There's plenty of diversity in the books, but it's not within every town. In the books, every area is mostly ethnically homogeneous, to the point that people have a good idea where you came from by how you look. So far in the series, every town looks like a mini-sampling of America's big city diversity, to the point that you would have no idea where anyone comes from based on how they look.

For example, I don't have a problem at all with the casting choices of Lan, Moraine, and Egwene, as they all come from different regions, so their diversity from each other makes sense. But in the show when you look at Mat, Egwene, Nynaeve, and Perrin; they also look like they all come from different regions which doesn't feel right. And their differences makes Rand not stand out so much, like he does in the books, where folks note that it does not looks like Rand belongs in the Two Rivers region.

Anyway, that's more of a minor complaint, I can look past it, just takes me out of the immersion of the show sometimes.


...oh yeah, and in the books the Aes Sedai have ageless appearances, which did not make it to the show. So again cosmetic, doesn't really change the story at all, just another thing that regularly pops in my head while watching the show.

[Egomaniac]

Which is a major change. The cycle, the prophecy heard by Moirane, and the general knowledge that went through out the world post-breaking that it could be a female or male to break the world with the tainted Saidin. Or rather not since the whole story has been changed.

I disagree. Unless they actually change who the Dragon Reborn is....it's a minor and unimportant change. And I highly doubt they are going to change that.

Prophecy is often vague, misleading, and misunderstood. That's even commented on in the books. The fact that they weren't given the Dragon's Gender and the Exact Time, Date, and Location of his/her birth doesn't overly concern me.

[Surfd]

No, the prophecies being changed is not a reason why it is "bad". It's just a difference from the books. It doesn't mean it's automatically good either. Just different.

And a female dragon could be just as dangerous...even while connecting to Saidar. Not all the Forsaken were men after all. Women just don't go insane using the power. It doesn't mean they can't use it for Evil.

You know, it's amazing how badly you are missing the point even with like half a dozen people explaining it to you.

Female Dragons existing straight up breaks BEDROCK CORE TENANTS of how the WoT universe works. The entire universe, all it's lore, all it's power dynamics, it's politics, it's legends, literally EVERYTHING that makes WoT WoT is built from the ground up on a fairly nuanced Yin/Yang Male/Female dynamic of play and counterplay along a hard line gender divide.

Almost everything in the series, from simple Men's / Women's point of view advice on how to have a happy marriage, to the way the Women's Circle / Mens Council in small towns play off eachother, to the reason the White Tower is a feared political power across the entire continent, to core elements of the magic system and how it functions differently depending on if you are a Man or a Woman are all DEEPLY entwined with that Yin/Yang hard line divide.

You introduce Female Dragons, of literally any sort (even "fake" ones) and you basically toss out a fundamental aspect of what makes WoT WoT, reducing it to something much closer to just another generic fantasy series.

And this has ripples across EVERYTHING because of how deeply that Yin/Yang balance is threaded into everything:

Allowing Female Dragons to exist literally requires you break the fundamentals of how magic in WoT works:
The Dragon is feared in legend because the Dark One's counter attack just before being sealed in his prison at the end of the previous cycle Tainted the Male half of the source, literally driving every single male channeler on the planet insane at once. This resulted in tens of thousands of Male channelers literally breaking the world: destroying cites, laying waste to countries, flattening mountains, etc, etc. It took the combined might of basically every surviving Female channeler out there to subdue them, which given the power differences between men and women meant that almost ALL of the women died.

So you then have literally hundreds of centuries of people attempting to pull themselves out of a literal Mad Max style global apocalypse, while periodically some poor dude awakens his channeling gift and goes stark raving mad, potentially destroying entire enclaves of survivors before someone can stop him, which basically constantly puts the fear of god into everybody when it comes to Men and Magic.

And after a while, when some of the few survivors of the Female team manage to create the White Tower and bring a semblance of stability back, there is still the "prophesies" hanging over everybody's head: That the guy directly responsible for a global apocalypse is going to come back, and break the world AGAIN because the Male half of the power is still tainted and broken.

Straight up almost none of that works if the Dragon can come back as a woman. Because it all literally hinges on the Male half of the duality being tainted while the Female half is fine. If they can come back as a woman, that would play absolute hell with the idea that the White Tower and the Aes Sedai (an organization composed entirely of Female Channelers) are basically the last line of defense between men going nuts and another breaking of the world. It undermines their entire powerbase because then Female Channelers, ALL FEMALE channelers, immediately become just as potentially dangerous as the male ones. If the Dragon could be a Woman, the entire White Tower basically wouldn't exist, because crazed mobs of normal people would have stoned every female channeler to death along with the men centuries ago.

Like, I don't understand why this seems difficult to grasp for you, but actually adhering to core elements of what makes your IP unique and different from other IP's in the same genre is actually really fucking important when it comes to pleasing the fans. It's playing a dangerous game of trying to see how much you can change without crossing over into "This TV Series is Wheel of Time in Name Only" territory. And frankly, as a fan, they seem to be well over that line in regards to a lot of shit.

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Whether The Dragon is male/female when he/she saves/breaks the world is rather unimportant to the average person.

Except that this is 100% incorrect.

If the Dragon could be Female, it straight up breaks EVERYTHING about the way history played out after the breaking. The only reason the White Tower exists is because the Men went insane. ONLY the Men. And because the Dragon is destined to be Male, only Men remain a concern when it comes to Channelers. The White Tower and the Aes Sedai only exist because they were the anchor that the world clung to after the breaking because they were "safe", and because they had the power to find and contain a flare up when some poor Man discovered his gift and went nuts.

If the Dragon can be Female, that makes literally EVERY channeler on the face of the planet a potential danger. It removes the "safe" aspect that allowed the Aes Sedai to eventually become a political power that commands kings across an entire continent and turns them into people who the "average person" is no longer going to look at in Awe, but rather into just a bunch of people who could go insane at any moment and break the world again. Crazed mobs would be slaughtering them in their sleep rather than going to them for help.

I mean, hell, if you were to look at it realistically, if the Dragon COULD be Female, then the White Cloaks would have had a MUCH MUCH MUCH bigger powerbase, because it would have been WAY more easy to convince the "average" person that every channeler is a danger to civilization. That's a lot easier to do when you can point the finger at ALL of them, instead of only the Men (who have for the most part been nearly extinct for generations).

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Just a minor nitpick as well, but I really wish people would stop confusing Prophesies with the Fortelling.

Gitara's fortelling IS NOT A PROPHESY. The Foretelling is a "Talent", and it was literally her having a "The Universe Interrupts Your Daily Broadcast To Bring You This Special Announcement" moment where cosmic forces straight up hijack her to announce that "The Universe has Decreed that The Dragon is Reborn RIGHT FUCKING NOW and HIS destiny burns with the fury of a thousand suns" and then she promptly keels over dead from shock. It's a literal message straight from the mouth of god, so to speak, and absolutely not "vague" in any way. It's also something that you literally can not argue with. If the fortelling says the dragon is a "him" then he is a him.

The prophesies were something completely different, and mostly dealt with the "signs" by which you would know the Dragon when he showed up (Thrice and Thrice He shall be Marked) and the like, as well as the things he would do when reborn, but almost all the prophesies were ANCIENT compared to Gitara's fortelling.

[Triceron]

Except that this is 100% incorrect.

If the Dragon could be Female, it straight up breaks EVERYTHING about the way history played out after the breaking. The only reason the White Tower exists is because the Men went insane. ONLY the Men. And because the Dragon is destined to be Male, only Men remain a concern when it comes to Channelers. The White Tower and the Aes Sedai only exist because they were the anchor that the world clung to after the breaking because they were "safe", and because they had the power to find and contain a flare up when some poor Man discovered his gift and went nuts.

If the Dragon can be Female, that makes literally EVERY channeler on the face of the planet a potential danger. It removes the "safe" aspect that allowed the Aes Sedai to eventually become a political power that commands kings across an entire continent and turns them into people who the "average person" is no longer going to look at in Awe, but rather into just a bunch of people who could go insane at any moment and break the world again. Crazed mobs would be slaughtering them in their sleep rather than going to them for help.

I mean, hell, if you were to look at it realistically, if the Dragon COULD be Female, then the White Cloaks would have had a MUCH MUCH MUCH bigger powerbase, because it would have been WAY more easy to convince the "average" person that every channeler is a danger to civilization. That's a lot easier to do when you can point the finger at ALL of them, instead of only the Men (who have for the most part been nearly extinct for generations).

As an average person who didn't know about this, I still don't care what the book says if I'm watching this show for the sake of watching the show.

I'll say that I definitely may not agree with all the choices they've made for this TV adaptation, but they're doing something fun out of the Dragon Reborn by seeding it amongst more characters and giving them moments to root for. The latest episode had a lot of entertainment value in seeding the possibility of characters-other-than-the-main-character being the Dragon Reborn, and for the average person who doesn't follow the books, they might not know the Dragon Reborn is the obvious main character yet.

The TV White Tower doesn't have the same lore as the books, and that's something you gotta understand if you're jumping into this whole thing. It's not the book. I mean, it's just like the Game of Thrones shit all over again. Book readers can nitpick all they want about the TV series changing core elements here and there, but at the end of the day the TV series is not the Book series. The lore is different.

From what we know of the TV series, the Aes Sedai are there to track down men and prevent them from using the Power since it drives them to madness. It doesn't pertain to gatekeeping the world from the Dragon Reborn exactly, and it doesn't gatekeep to say any female channeler is 'safe', only that they're not prone to the same madness that men are. The rules have changed, but the core concepts haven't been undone, at least not to the level that you may be explaining. It's only of you stick with the book lore that the Dragon Reborn can only be a man that you'd have that conflict, whereas the TV series hasn't really set that up. It's shown that Men who use the power are afflicted with madness, and it's foretelling that the 5 main characters could all be the Dragon Reborn (as opposed to the 3 in the books), while also showcasing the potential and power of one who thinks they are the Dragon Reborn themselves.

As for the direction of the series and the rest of the lore you've brought up... well the Dragon Reborn hasn't shown up till late. The TV series hasn't fully established how powerful or influential the Whitecloaks are. We've only started to see the Aes Sedai organization. There's plenty of material that you're applying from the books to stuff that simply hasn't been established in the TV series, and I think you're jumping to too many conclusions about the established TV lore.

There's plenty of stuff that isn't making sense in this series, but really the points you've brought up haven't even really been established in the TV series yet so there's no real debate to be had about why a certain faction or group should or should not be more powerful than it already is. We have to wait and see how the showrunners choose to address this and how they're going to tie it back into the mythology of the TV series.

[Dancaris]

cutting Elaida would mean cutting the whole white tower coup as she is the one who leads it and becomes amyrlin seat. And that would cause massive disruption to the plot.

It can be Liandrin who did that. We can practicaly merge her and Elaida, and nothing changes. And even better, both of them became damani to Shonchan

[Shadowferal]

When you change core elements of an established story it is a pretty big deal. Does it ultimately matter for the show? Not really because they can still create a good fantasy show. The thing is this is not just a generic fantasy story but it is supposed to be an adaptation. It also doesn't bode well for the future episodes and seasons if they are already changing core things.

It's a big deal to fans of the source material. If a production is making something based upon an enormous success of books then if they want to see a similar success then they need to adhere as closely to the books that they reasonably can.

[jdbond]

They are changing so much that it will be worse than last season of GOT once they hit season 2. If they survive that long. I mean man can't see weave of women and yet, all the audience can and so did Logain. Logain is weaker than Nynaeve so he is going to be a joke around Dragon, won't he? Just read the comments, most people think "black" stuff around Logain was part of his magic.

So yeah, they will protect the "names" but they intend to rewrite the story in some serious way. Thing is that just like GoT, they won't be able to keep it up. By season 3, show will look just absurd thanks to changes being made right now without any thought to how it affects future seasons. I mean did they claim that Egwene as strong as Logain, even stronger?

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It can be Liandrin who did that. We can practicaly merge her and Elaida, and nothing changes. And even better, both of them became damani to Shonchan

You mean leader of Black Ajah leading WT and then what, getting caught by SeanChan? Or shadow losing WT while ruling it?

[Dancaris]

You mean leader of Black Ajah leading WT and then what, getting caught by SeanChan? Or shadow losing WT while ruling it?

And why not? Its not like that arenot a thing anyway. Make black ajah rule WT, then rebels are Light sister. To me its better reason than some inner problems with respect in woman groups.

[Xath]

And why not? Its not like that arenot a thing anyway. Make black ajah rule WT, then rebels are Light sister. To me its better reason than some inner problems with respect in woman groups.

Rafe is that you? Fuck the story that was written my way is better and the dude is dead so he can't tell me no.

[Katchii]

Very important to the Books. Not disagreeing. Of course, they haven't, thus far, actually changed who the dragon reborn is, so it's not really a big deal yet. The only thing that's different is that prophecy is less specific regarding who TDR is.

Sure, that would be a major deviation from the story. But again, it hasnt happened yet.

And yet changing the prophecy itself doesn't have to change anything about their individual roles.

They ahven't made any major chnages to the story yet. They've changed the wording of the prophecy

All fair points (really the same one) however, they are hinting at it with the latest episode. And if they never planned to change who TDR was, then there really is no point in changing the wording of the prophecy or hinting that it could be a woman. That's just virtue signaling and serves no purpose to the overall narrative.

[Egomaniac]

All fair points (really the same one) however, they are hinting at it with the latest episode. And if they never planned to change who TDR was, then there really is no point in changing the wording of the prophecy or hinting that it could be a woman. That's just virtue signaling and serves no purpose to the overall narrative.

Thing is, if you haven't read the books...and most of the audience hasn't...you wouldn't know anything about the prophecy. So it can still serve to allow the people that are coming in fresh to believe that any one of those kids could be TDR.

[Beloren]

Well, there's two sides to that argument. I agree that "because it's like that in the book" on its own is not the best argument; however, there's often a REASON it's like that in the book and ignoring that reason can make things problematic because it's bad writing irrespective of its book-accurate nature. For example, adding a 10th ring of power to the humans in LotR would be bad writing for an adaptation - not JUST because "it's not like that in the book" but also because there's a REASON there were 9 rings in the book and that has lots of implications for the rest of the story. This is very different from some book detail that does NOT have such implications, like e.g. if it said a character had green eyes (and that had no bearing on the story) then complaining because an actor has blue eyes in the adaptation because it's "not like that in the book" is pretty silly.

Not all such points of contention are created equal.

Am I the only one that feels even character descriptions in the films should match the book.

I won’t whine much if they eye colour or skin colour change if those aspects don’t match the book. But I’d still like them too.

If the book went on about those piercing blue eyes and ice cold stare repeatedly, is the colour important as long as it looks piercing and icy?

But then there is a thing about blue eyes appearing cold and brown eyes warm. Changing the eye colour is not trivial it’s important to keep some things.

No where near on the level of the gender bending of the prophecy. Altho it’s not as bad as it would be if they made the Dragon reborn female or non binary or decided to remove the gender halves of the one power because they weren’t gender neutral.

That’s just rude.

Talking about eyes. Didn’t Lan have blue eyes in the book?

Would it kill actors to sometimes dye their hair or wear coloured lenses to fit the book description?

[Egomaniac]

Am I the only one that feels even character descriptions in the films should match the book.

I won’t whine much if they eye colour or skin colour change if those aspects don’t match the book. But I’d still like them too.

If the book went on about those piercing blue eyes and ice cold stare repeatedly, is the colour important as long as it looks piercing and icy?

But then there is a thing about blue eyes appearing cold and brown eyes warm. Changing the eye colour is not trivial it’s important to keep some things.

No where near on the level of the gender bending of the prophecy. Altho it’s not as bad as it would be if they made the Dragon reborn female or non binary or decided to remove the gender halves of the one power because they weren’t gender neutral.

That’s just rude.

Talking about eyes. Didn’t Lan have blue eyes in the book?

Would it kill actors to sometimes dye their hair or wear coloured lenses to fit the book description?

"I won't whine much about eye colour"

*Proceeds to whine about eye colour*

[Biomega]

I'm not glossing over anything. I'm just saying what is known about the prophecy.

If Person A is Lews Therin Telamon and Person B is Lanfear....I'd be more worried about Lanfear. Crazy guy at least has good intentions.

But that's not the choice here. You don't have that extra information about their character. All you know is one WILL go insane, the other will not. Of course it's an easy choice if you know exactly who it is and what's going to happen - BUT YOU DON'T.

That's the whole reason people are so maniacally afraid of the Dragon Reborn.

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Changing the eye colour is not trivial it’s important to keep some things.

In most cases, it IS trivial in a film adaptation, because it's a different medium. You can barely tell eye color a lot of the time, and barely notice it. In books it's easy to narrow in on particular details because you're not limited by the tools of the medium the same way - to focus in on details like that in a film is tricky. On the other hand, a film can do things like elaborate visuals, which are difficult to convey in text because reading about the background for 3 pages isn't usually the best writing.

Of course there ARE instances where eye color (as a particular example) is absolutely relevant. Take Dune for example - there the all-blue eyes of the Fremen are a central plot point, and omitting that wouldn't work. But for 99.99% of works, it's an irrelevant detail when it comes to adaptation, because plot doesn't hinge on it.

[Triceron]

But that's not the choice here. You don't have that extra information about their character. All you know is one WILL go insane, the other will not. Of course it's an easy choice if you know exactly who it is and what's going to happen - BUT YOU DON'T.

That's the whole reason people are so maniacally afraid of the Dragon Reborn.

People in the book, sure.

The TV series is establishing a completely different take on it, where it's a fear of a reincarnation into a man would result in a potentially mad Dragon Reborn. There isn't a universal fear of the Dragon Reborn as it exists in the book in the TV series, as we've seen that being challenged already. There's just a general fear that history will repeat itself with another Dragon breaking the world for simply existing. You can argue that it's not as strong a reason as the books and all, but the story works just fine as far as the TV canon is concerned.

[Biomega]

People in the book, sure.

The TV series is establishing a completely different take on it, where it's a fear of a reincarnation into a man would result in a potentially mad Dragon Reborn. There isn't a universal fear of the Dragon Reborn as it exists in the book in the TV series, as we've seen that being challenged already. There's just a general fear that history will repeat itself with another Dragon breaking the world for simply existing. You can argue that it's not as strong a reason as the books and all, but the story works just fine as far as the TV canon is concerned.

The problem is, that undermines a lot of the foundations of subsequent story lines. It erodes much of the structure of the Aes Sedai, for example - if females could be the Dragon, how do they deal with that within their ranks? Why aren't they constantly paranoid one of them might be the Dragon Reborn? Why is the Red Ajah so powerful if it's not fueled by the mission to subdue male channelers in fear of them turning out to be the Dragon? If the Red Ajah's militarism isn't as pronounced, how does the Black Ajah gain a foothold in the Tower? And so on and so forth.

Sure you can change things, but the world is built on top of foundational plot points - and if you change those, then everything built on top is in peril as well. They can just gloss over that and ignore the implications, of course; but weakening the world-building in a series beloved for its intricate world-building can backfire spectacularly.

[Theangryone]

No, the prophecies being changed is not a reason why it is "bad". It's just a difference from the books. It doesn't mean it's automatically good either. Just different.

And a female dragon could be just as dangerous...even while connecting to Saidar. Not all the Forsaken were men after all. Women just don't go insane using the power. It doesn't mean they can't use it for Evil.

If so, with only 8 episodes , there is no reason to go with the whole men who channel go insane plot line. It would be a waste of time. The whole point of the dragon being male is the extreme danger he poses to everyone.

There are going to be changes in moving from one medium to the next, but usually it’s for expediency. But with 4 episodes left there is no way they can finish eye of the world making what they did to Perrin’s backstory unnecessary. Not to mention what’s been left out of his so far

[Egomaniac]

But that's not the choice here. You don't have that extra information about their character. All you know is one WILL go insane, the other will not. Of course it's an easy choice if you know exactly who it is and what's going to happen - BUT YOU DON'T.

That's the whole reason people are so maniacally afraid of the Dragon Reborn.

Let me just take a little excerpt of the prophecy for you:

He shall slay his people with the sword of peace, and destroy them with the leaf.

With his coming are the dread fires born again.
The hills burn, and the land turns sere.
The tides of men run out, and the hours dwindle.
The wall is pierced, and the veil of parting raised.
Storms rumble beyond the horizon, and the fires of heaven purge the earth.
There is no salvation without destruction, no hope this side of death

Now, aside from the gendered pronouns, if we assume the prophecy is the same in the TV series... there's plenty to be, as you put it, "maniacally afraid" about there. The Dragon has to break the world in order to save it. Male or female, sane or insane...the world breaks. Salvation is inexorably linked to Destruction. That's enough reason to be afraid of any Dragon Reborn.

[Biomega]

there's plenty to be, as you put it, "maniacally afraid" about there.

There is plenty to be afraid of, but there is MORE to be afraid of if you KNOW they'll go insane. To pretend it's the same whether they're insane or not is... insane.

[rhorle]

Now, aside from the gendered pronouns, if we assume the prophecy is the same in the TV series... there's plenty to be, as you put it, "maniacally afraid" about there. The Dragon has to break the world in order to save it. Male or female, sane or insane...the world breaks. Salvation is inexorably linked to Destruction. That's enough reason to be afraid of any Dragon Reborn.

But no more then normal given a world with "in control" female users of the one power. It changes the tone of everything by not having the threat of insanity as the thing to fear with all of that. It isn't the One power and conquering that is feared. It is a man, that carries the taint of the darkone, doing all of that while they go insane and break the world again that was the ultimate threat.

Right now the prophecies just talk about bombs going off. Where as in the books it was talking about nukes going off from Saidin. It changes the dragon from "Insane potential breaker of the world" to "rebel warlords conquering stuff". You don't want either one but one threat is more normal.